Automated Transcript Episode 17
Episode 17: Tips to create an accessible classroom
Speaker Kate Bodle SENCO and mother of three neurodiverse children
Please excuse any errors as this transcript has been automatically generated
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. And more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neuro divergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
In this episode, we will be speaking with Kate Bodle, SENCO, and mother to three neurodiverse children. She'll be sharing with us her top 10 tips on how to make a classroom accessible for all children. Ignatia Estrada, a 21st century educator said, if a child can't learn the way we teach, maybe we should teach the way they learn. Kate provides in this podcast simple and easy ways to change the classroom, to teach the way children learn. So, welcome Kate to the SEND Parenting Podcast. It is a real pleasure to have you on the show today. I really appreciate that, um, your experience as a SENCO and also kind of some of your unique initiatives that you've had with the classroom and how you really reach out to not only neurodiverse children, but also neurotypical children. So I'm really excited about our conversation today. Um, to kick it off, can you just tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming a SENCO?
Kate Bodle:
Well, thank you for having me. Um, so my journey started a very long time ago. So when I first started teaching, I was working in a school, um, where I had a class of children who, some of them were just not learning despite me doing what I thought was the right thing to be doing and, um, fairly, and I started doing some discourses on dyslexia at that time, um, because I was just interested in the fact that these children, what, what was it about these children that meant that they weren't learning by the way that I was teaching? And we, subsequently to that, um, had a change of head teacher and the head that came in was a dyslexia specialist and expert. So very quickly she started to transform the whole school round, which was brilliant. And I learned more and more, did more and more courses.
Kate Bodle:
We ended up being at, back in the day they used to have these things called beacon schools for dyslexia, which meant that this school had an expertise and then it could share it with other schools. So I became the lead teacher for that, for that school. Um, and then, um, just carried on sort of learning really, um, had children of my own left that school and, and went, started, um, just really doing individual lessons and specific lessons with children as a kind of gap filler whie my children were still very tiny and I couldn't really go back into, or I didn't want to go back into full-time teaching. But then, um, started obviously to yearn to get back into it again and went in as a SENKO. And then, so my SENKO experience has been post having my children and after all my knowledge about dyslexia, um, at the roundabout that time as well, I started, um, training teachers and how to become specialist dyslexia teachers as well. So I've kind of seen it from both ends, from asen co, from just a normal class teacher, but also somebody that trains other teachers to, to do the sort of job that I do.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That's interesting. It sounds like you have a passion for it and that you've enjoyed it as well. <laugh>. Yes.
Kate Bodle:
And then the ironic thing is I've then subsequently gone on to have two children who have dyslexia, didn't know anything about, you know, didn't know that was going to happen. So that's been very interesting. So from a parent's point of view as well, I've actually got three children, two of whom are dyslexic, and, um, one who has ADHD. So I've kind of, as a SENCO have got that personal experience as well, which I think helps. It's not essential, obviously, um, you don't go around designing your children around your job, but it is kind of worked for me and I think it helps. I feel, um, as a parent, if I'd have had somebody that goes, do, do you know what, I know that as a parent it's really tough and they genuinely know. Then I think that that also really helps parents, um, when you're having to have some difficult conversations sometimes.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
I think having that empathy and, and that understanding of what it's like to walk in the shoes really is, um, it helps you understand on a completely different level. So I can, uh, understand where thats coming from. So in, you know, in terms of how, um, you've used that experience, um, in the classroom, um, because I know we've had some conversations before of how it's just changed the way you teach and your story there kind of illustrates that, that you, you change the way you teach to reach everyone in the classroom. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah, I think super interesting.
Kate Bodle:
There was a really good quote, which is, um, if they don't learn the way you teach, then teach the way they learn. Um, I think there's a, an arrogance particularly, I know I had it when I was a young teacher that, you know, I learned how to teach, I know how to teach. I, you know, if they're not learning, why aren't they learning? And you know, it's a bit like that thing with somebody that's, that's deaf. You know, if you just by speaking louder and slower isn't going to change the fact that they're deaf. So you've, you've got to go back to, you know, what is it about that child that is different? And the the brilliant thing, um, is that by having a classroom that is dyslexia friendly, you are actually going to make a classroom that is good for all children. You're gonna scoop up the children who may be on the, the borderline and may not have any kind of diagnosis or, or may just not ever be dyslexic enough to need a diagnosis.
Kate Bodle:
But you're also going to really enable children who think outside the box. Um, children that might have other difficulties like ADHD or autism or, dyspraxia, they're going to benefit from these sorts of, uh, techniques. And all children learn better when things are practical. And I think sometimes, um, schools and teachers forget that. And we, we have this kind of very narrow way of doing things and actually you just widen that a little bit and you see everybody blossom and, and begin to really, um, you know, get the most out of their learning. So by changing classrooms, um, in very, very small ways, you don't have to do very much. Actually. There's sort of a few key things that you need to do to make your classroom a little bit more dyslexia friendly. Um, and if you can do those things, you're gonna help everybody. So that's, that's sort of my mantra really, is we need to change as teachers, not the children. Um, and I think, and it's the same as a parent as well, I mean, you know, as a parent with, of children with a neurodiversity, that you cannot treat them the same as you might treat your other children, for example. So I think that's what's so important is just to make sure that you're really looking at what the individual needs.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And you know, it's, it's so interesting because I think a lot of educators sometimes, and you know, I've done it in medicine too, where, you know, I tell you to take your medicine and I tell you to do this, and what do you mean you don't do it? You know what I mean? Instead of actually looking at, well, why aren't you taking your medicine? What's going on in your life? You know, it is the same kind of philosophy, but it's, it's not what we're trained for, uh, you know, whether it be a teacher or as a doctor. You know, it doesn't, work in medicine and it doesn't work in teaching. So it's, it is, it's finding out how you can make it right for that child. And that, I think that's wonderful to hear that, you know, um, you're molding yourself to enable the children to be interested in learning and to engage in learning.
Kate Bodle:
Absolutely. I think you have to be, you have to be curious. You have to understand that every behavior, there will be a need behind that, you know, there's always something underneath that you need to unpick. Um, and so by doing these, these sort of, I don't know, 10, 11 sort of, I have 10 or 11 sort of top tips really that, um, the things, I think if every teacher in every school did this, it would just make learning a little bit easier for their children. And lots of teachers are doing these things and they're, lots of the time when I do train teachers, they're, they're sort of like, all I do that, or I do that, or I pick that up from somewhere. And I thought that was a good idea, but they don't always understand why they're doing it and the importance of it and how the importance of doing it regularly and all the time, um, is, is the real key thing.
Kate Bodle:
So, so those are my, my, uh, my areas of passion, I suppose is just to make sure that if, if all teachers did this, life will be so much better for the one in five children that you'll have in your classroom, um, with a dyslexic need. And, and, and it still staggers me when people say, I don't have any dyslexic children in my class or even in my school, you know, I heard about school the other day that said, oh, we've got three dyslexic children in the school. It's like, you really don't, you really do have a huge number more than that. You need to be getting to grips with that and embracing it rather than shying away from the dis the diagnosis. Because sometimes it's hard a bit, it's going to make your job a little bit harder, it's going to make you have to work a bit harder, but, you know, it's not difficult. And I think that's the thing to get across from me.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And also what you said is that it's not just for dyslexic children either. It's for autistic children, it's for ADHD children. It's, um, probably benefiting also neurotypical children I would imagine as well.
Kate Bodle:
Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, without a doubt, when I have been into schools who don't do these things as a sort of matter of course, and I've done some training with them, one of the biggest things that they come back with is isn't, is saying, you know, well, not only did these children that I was expecting to have a difference, but also these children in the class. And I don't think they were dyslexia, and I don't think they are dyslexic, but they've also benefited. So I think it's, yeah, it's, it's just, to me it's common sense teaching now, and I kind of forget that not all teachers know how to do this. Um, so <laugh>, you know, because when it, when you are working in a school where it, it is just the norm and this is what we do, I think you forget how knowledgeable you are sometimes.
Kate Bodle:
And I think that's why podcasts like this are really important. The work that made by dyslexia do is absolutely transformational in, in enabling parents to see what they can go into schools and request. Um, and also for teachers just to give them that knowledge. And when I did my teacher training, I think I had half an hour on dyslexia and I did a four year course, you know, so, and that was a long time ago. I know, but I don't think it's changed an awful lot. My son's, um, doing a PGCE at the moment, um, and he's not had any training on SEND and dyslexia yet, and he's, what is it now? February? I don't think there's an awful lot more sessions planned. So, um, you know, teachers have,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's shocking when you think like, you know, 30% of the class, I think the statistics are 30% of classrooms now, if you look at neurodiversity as like a collective whole are dyslexic or artistic or ADHD, it's quite a large number, and that's diagnosed not undiagnosed. So it's, you know, it's, um, it needs to become more of a forefront. I well, there's two things there I now wanna, uh, ask you more about. So I guess first is, is the, is your top 10 list, can you share it with us? Absolutely. Is it something that you, you could take us through
Kate Bodle:
I, uh, yeah, of course. Um, so the the very first one I think out of everything is to get, to get the staff some training. And that will be my first thing to do. So whether it's having somebody like me coming in and, and doing a talk is fine, but, you know, obviously there's costs involved with that. But made by dyslexia and Microsoft got together a few years ago now to put on some training, it's free. Um, it, I think it's about five hours worth or six hours worth in all. So, they're just about to start a new campaign actually called Take a Day for Dyslexia. So they're just to encourage people. But we, and in our school, our teachers have all done that training, so every single member of staff did that training and we did it over time.
Kate Bodle:
So because it's in bite size chunks. But, you know, just having that under everybody, having that underlying understanding of what is dyslexia and then what sorts of tools and things can I use to help our children with dyslexia is crucial. So staff training would be my number one. Um, my number two would probably be, can everybody see, I think that's really important. When you walk into classrooms, you quite often see children grouped in circles and squares and, and sometimes teachers don't have the choice of being able to change the furniture, but you often see that there are children who are sitting with their backs to the teachers or they're sitting side on to the teacher. And if the teacher's giving some sort of, um, I would like to say lecture, but that's not quite the right input, shall we say, at the, at the front of the class.
Kate Bodle:
You know what it's like if you are an adult and you are at a presentation, but you're sitting on the side of the circular table and everything's happened to the side, you start to get uncomfortable and fidgety and you can't listen and you can't take on board what's happening because you are more conscious of the fact that your side is hurting or your, your hips are hurting or you can't see properly. So just making sure every child in the classroom can see where the main input is on the board is really crucial. And that might involve picking up their chairs and moving at the beginning of the input rather than just staying in their normal seats where they have to be. Or it might involve changing the classroom around. So when I was class teaching, which I don't do so much anymore, um, I would change so that the children were in horseshoe shape where for anything where I was teaching at the front and then they knew how to put the tables back together if I wanted them to go into group work.
Kate Bodle:
So training them to very quickly move tables safely and in an organized way, if everyone knows what bit they pick up and where they put it to you, you can do it really quickly and quietly. Um, and it becomes just normal way of, of doing things. So just ensuring that everyone can see is really important, making sure that there is key information available for them. And there's sort of links to another one of my points about purpose that I'll come onto a bit later on. But, you know, if if the, if the purpose of the task is not, um, to be working on the things that they're finding difficult, like spelling, then give them the spellings because they need that for the fluency of the lesson. So have keywords on the wall, uh, or even better on little cards that they can just go and collect from a basket or something that they can have keywords for the vocabulary that they might be using in that lesson.
Kate Bodle:
Or it might be the basic, um, you know, words that they need to learn how to spell. And then things like an alphabet on the wall is also really useful and even more useful is the script that you are using. Now. I personally am a big advocate for joined writing right from the beginning. Um, I know there's lots of different schools on that. I know the government have gone right away from that at the moment, which I think is hugely disappointing. But as a specialist dyslexia teacher, we are taught that by joining right from the beginning, you take away an awful lot of the difficulties some children have with knowing where to start their letters, for example. Um, and I, you know, I can do a whole other talk on handwriting because I'm quite passionate about that side of things as well. But yeah, having the, the script that you want them to use there so that they can copy and that's not just, it happens loads in key stage one and then they go into key stage two and it's almost like somebody decides that they don't need any of these tools anymore and it all disappears.
Kate Bodle:
And it is really important that there's still going to be a lot of children in the class that need the numbers, um, the letters, the alphabet in order around the classroom, um, and these keywords and vocabulary charts and things. So making sure that all of those things are available. That's one, another one that's really important. Um, having a visual timetable is crucial. Um, that's something that is particularly helpful for children who are more on the spectrum side of things. So on the autism spectrum or even with ADHD, but I think a lot of dyslexic people like to know, you know, what's happening next, um, as well. So some sort of visual timetable, preferably with pictures on, um, in my school as they go into key stage two, we actually give them a full timetable that they can have. And, and, but if they can't read that, if you know that your child that you are working with can't read it, put a symbol on it or a little diagram so that they just know what's happening and change it if it changes.
Kate Bodle:
So if you're going on a trip or you're going, or a visitor's coming in, or you're, you're changing around the order of something, have it on the timetable. And the best practice that I see is where somebody puts that up on the board at the beginning of the morning so that the children know what is happening during the day and they then can feel secure for the day. Um, I think that's, that's been an absolute game changer, really. And I, I did speak about that on another podcast, um, a while ago and had a lot of teachers coming back saying, just the difference that having a visual timetable all the way up into year six can make and pr and beyond, you know, I'm sure if a secondary school could do something similar, especially when you start getting into A weeks and B weeks and you know, room numbers and all of that stuff, which just gets mind boggling for them. So all those sorts of things are really, really important. Um, then,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And I imagine that that gives a sense of security and also, you know, um, you know, a sense of, okay, I know where we're going, I know where we're at. Yeah.
Kate Bodle:
And it just calms the classroom now and a million children coming up to you during the day going, what's happening next? Where are we going? I don't know, when is it lunchtime? And all of those things, you know, because you can just say, have a look at your timetable. It gives them the independence.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
I might devise one for home. Yeah,
Kate Bodle:
<laugh>,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's not a bad idea to have it home, you know, <laugh>,
Kate Bodle:
I used to that, when my boys were younger, I did do that. So I, we had something, you know, for what, what the activities were at the end of the day so that they knew what was happening. Because otherwise, sometimes, you know, you're zipping here, there and everywhere. And, and for those children, my son, particularly the child with ADHD, and he doesn't cope well with change and he needed that to be there. Um, and it makes them independent. You don't, they're not relying on you then to tell them what's going to happen. They can see for themselves as long as you as the adult are changing it when it changes. And that's, that's the key point, you know, a a a visual timetable that's up on the board, but it's dusty and it's never, you know, reflected on and looked at is not going to do the same job.
Kate Bodle:
So just making sure that it's all where it should be is, is really important. Um, I've kind of lost where I am on terms of my numbers, but, um, just making, learning practical and multisensory, and I think other people that have spoken on your podcast have talked about that, that just, it's really important these children learn differently. They're not learning the same way as everyone else, and you are not, we used to really spend a lot of time thinking about learning styles and whether somebody was visual or auditory or kinesthetic in their learning. And you're not gonna know in or and in your classroom, you're gonna have children that do all of those things. So if you're teaching anything, it really needs to be delivered in all three ways, if at all possible. And that might just be, um, making sure that there's a picture as well as a word, um, or some sort of visual to help as a hook and getting the children up and doing as much as possible.
Kate Bodle:
I mean, we know that dyslexic children are often very, very creative. Children with autism and ADHD, you know, the number of entrepreneurs, something like 20% of entrepreneurs have a neuro neurodiversity. Um, so they're going to think differently. And so you've got, you've got to allow that in their learning as well, that they're going to be learning differently. And therefore just make sure that you are covering all the bases when you are doing your lessons. And that's where it starts to get into being a little bit more hard work for teachers. You know, the chalk and talk method probably doesn't work for very many people. Um, and I remember being completely switched off some subjects at school, particularly secondary school I think when somebody just used to stand there and talk at me. Um, and, and technology is helping a lot with the, the more multi sort of sensory aspects of it.
Kate Bodle:
So there do tend to be more visuals now with, with learning, which is great. Um, so we're getting, we're getting there by osmosis a little bit, but there's still not quite enough of right now get up, move around the classroom and do something. They're going to need the rest break anyway. But actually, you know, can they write their ideas on a post-it note, but the post they have to pick up, pick up the post-it note, go and stick it at the other end of the room. Just that little bit of a change and a bit of moving about might really help. Um,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Which is funny. You do that in corporate land, you know what I mean? Like when you brainstorm in a meeting in a corporate job, you put it on post-it notes, you stick it up on the wall, you, you know, it, it's much more interactive. And in the classroom, you know, it's kind of, you sit in your desk, so there isn't that much movement.
Kate Bodle:
Some teachers do, some teachers do it, and some teachers do it very instinctively. I think there is a fear that you are going to lose the class if you let them get up and move about, you know, and especially if you're working in a challenging classroom, you know, when you say, right, everybody's taking a post-it note, go to the end, there's this sort of, uh, possibility that the behavior's going to suddenly slide. And I, and that all again comes back down to doing it often. So it's normal, they're used to it, it happens all the time. So it's not overly exciting in the sense that it's something new. It's just that's how we always do things that will make life a lot easier. Um, and I'm a big advocate on doing these things with, with something that doesn't matter a few times until you do the thing that really matters.
Kate Bodle:
And that way they've got the kind of silliness and the fits of giggles out of the way, and they get used to the different things. Um, making sure that, I mean, this is a sort of a really dead easy one now with technology, but making sure that if you are, um, using a board, um, a whiteboard, interactive whiteboards, most schools have them now. You change the background color. There's a, I can't remember the exact figures as to how many people, and I'm not talking about just people with neurodiversity, cannot cope with a, a white on black, um, kind of difference, visual difference with print. Um, but it's a, it's a huge number, something like 50% or 60%. So in our school, we print everything that the children, uh, write on in blue, any or anything they write on or they read anything that's printed, it's printed on pale blue paper instead of white paper.
Kate Bodle:
And just, that made a huge difference across the school, um, for children that we really weren't expecting. You know, it wasn't just the children who have any kind of visual difficulty, it was all sorts of children and said, gosh, that's much better. I, my eyes don't hurt as much when I'm reading a whole page of text or whatever. And you can do it on a, on the background, um, of the whiteboard really easily changing to either either cream sort of buff colour or pale blue is apparently the colour that works best for most people. Um, if you're not sure if you've got a child who has difficulties, and hopefully you'll have been to somebody who will have given you an idea as to whether they should have a, a different colour overlay or whatever. But we find that we don't really have anybody who uses overlays in our school anymore because the blue paper does enough to make the difference. Um, and you know, if you, if they do need an overlay, then we'll use it more in a reading book where it is still black on white as well.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That's remarkable, isn't it? Such a small change
Kate Bodle:
Tiny, yeah and actually, I remember speaking to somebody and saying, you know, what's the difference in cost? And it's pennies, you know, it wasn't a huge difference to get the blue paper. You've gotta get it right. It's gotta be quite pale every now and again, the order goes wrong or they send us something and it's a little bit more turquoise and you sort of a bit, that's a little startling. Um, but generally speaking, if it's pale blue, that works, that works really well. Cream color paper I think is quite, is a bit more expensive, and I think that's why we went for the blue rather than the cream. But, you know, I'm sure everybody's, you know, paper is available from all sorts of places. So <laugh>. Um, and then, um, thinking about purpose, I mean, I, I mentioned this a bit before, but I think purpose is a really important one for teachers that sometimes you get hung up on minutia of something, so you might be really hanging onto spelling or grammar and that sort of thing.
Kate Bodle:
And it is really important, but actually, if you are wanting to write a story and you want to get the creativity from the children, then actually the, your prime purpose is a really beautiful creative story. So get the children to just write and say, I don't mind about your punctuation in your spelling. We'll go back and edit it that at the end, so don't worry about it as you go along. And then just get them to write and give them the spellings and give them the words and get the story or get the piece of writing outta them that you want, or the scientific diagram or whatever. It's the science that you want rather than the spelling that's important at that point. And then when they've completed the work, give them time to go back and check it and change anything or whatever. Or even just see if they can underline words they don't think that they spelled right.
Kate Bodle:
Um, just so that you are aware that they know and then spend a different time in the day working on the spelling or the grammar or whatever it is. And, and although it feels like it doesn't come together, it always will do in the end. Or my eldest who is dyslexic, who is now training to be a teacher, um, I remember thinking, goodness me, he still doesn't get words with CK endings. You know, he kept putting KC until he was about 14, 15. He'd had so many lessons on it. And I, you know, I just just sort of said to him, well, you just always run it through a spell checker and it'll, it'll sort you out. He can do it now. But it took till he was about 17 or 18 before all of those things, and he suddenly said just one day it clicked and now he can do it. So time,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
You know, it's funny, like I, I mean, I don't, I, I still like, and especially if I'm tired or whatever, like were, where or the different, there or their, I, either one will come out and spelling is terrible. I mean, I really, I can't spell, but you know what, I don't need to really exactly. You know what I mean? I, I use spellcheck and I use grammar. I my grammar, am I spelling, I would say, and I'm a, I'm a doctor, right? Yes. Uh, you know, which luckily you don't really need either of those things for being a doctor, but, um, <laugh>, uh, but with the technology the way it is now, but learning how to tell a story and learning how to be creative, that's so important. Yeah. Because the rest of the stuff you can find a crutch for.
Kate Bodle:
Absolutely. And that takes me quite neatly onto accessibility tools. You know, Microsoft <laugh> is just incredible for the fact that they have built in these accessibility tools within e nearly every single thing that they do now. And, and they're still bringing in more and they're still finding more and better ways, um, to, to help people to get their writing down. And, you know, if you can dictate your story, you know, I remember, I remember working with a child and he used to write really dull stories. I mean, they were boring as, and, and, and I remember talking to him and saying, well, why have you chosen those words? And he'd say, because those are the ones I can spell. And when we freed him up to dictate the stories were incredible. The stuff that was in his head was brilliant, but we'd never seen that because he was so worried about whether he could spell it correctly, which is, it's really sad, I think. Um, so yeah, the accessibility tools is my, they're my, my number one favorite. And I know you've had other people on talking about those. Yeah,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
You know, one of the thing that surprises me is that a lot of schools, primary and secondary don't use technology as much as I would think that they would, you know, I'm surprised.
Kate Bodle:
I think it's, it's partly that they don't know that they exist. We did a parents' talk, um, and so many parents didn't know these tools existed, and they are using them within their businesses and they didn't know that they were there. So how a child could know, you know, how a teacher knows, you know, unless somebody's actually said, if you are using Microsoft, these are built in. And again, that comes down to training and it's just making sure, which is why, you know, I'm a huge advocate for the Microsoft, um, training platform, which is all completely free as well. Um, and all, there's loads of training on the accessibility tools themselves. So if, if a teacher doesn't know about them, um, they can go on and, and find those out as well. And there's loads of YouTube videos and, and TikTok videos and things like that on the accessibility tools in Microsoft to help people. Um, but now our children, our children teach their parents, which is brilliant, you know, and they're sort of showing them tips and things that they can use within PowerPoint or inside, you know, the, the program. So that really, really helps. So I think that's a
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Really, yeah, I know my daughter showed me how you can put a video into PowerPoint. She's like, you know what? Well, I don't even need to put the words and I can just put myself here talking about the, the slide, you know, I was, wow, that's so cool.
Kate Bodle:
<laugh>. It's so much easier. So much easier. It's brilliant. And, and that leads me very nicely onto how, uh, thinking as a teacher, how else can they record this? Do they have to all do it the same way? Do they have to all be writing it down? Could I say to them, right, you can show me how you've learnt this in any way you want. You can draw a picture, you can record a video, you can, um, you can type it, you can make a PowerPoint, you can make a Microsoft sway. You could, you can do it however you want. You can build me a model, um, you know, present your work however you want, however, feels good for you and I, and that just releases it as a teacher, it shouldn't matter as long as you can understand that they have learnt it shouldn't matter how they present it.
Kate Bodle:
And again, I think that comes sometimes down to a little bit of fear, um, of letting go. But equally it's also about training them. You know, you need, you need them to know how to do these things, so you need to have shown them a modeled, perhaps lots of different ways of recording, um, for, for it to be really working. But it, it's brilliant and it shows you such a different side to children. And I think lockdown learning really helped with that. Um, the use of videos during lockdown, learning the change for some children in being able to show their work by creating a video, um, was just phenomenal. And I think that that really helped, certainly at our school teachers to sort of see a completely different side of some children when we said, right, you know, you can record how you've done this.
Kate Bodle:
You can either write it or you can, you can show it to me on the, on the video or you within OneNote or within PowerPoint or Microsoft Flip, uh, flip, which isn't Microsoft, it's affiliated is another really good recording tool. But there's, there's all sorts of different ways and, and it's quite fascinating to see. And from that, we've started doing in our year, sixes a project, um, where they have to do an independent project, uh, with a theme. So we give them some guidance as to what it is that we want, but we ask them to record it in any way that they would like. And that's just incredible to see the different things that they come up with. Um, and you wouldn't know which children are neuro neurodiverse or, or neurotypical once you see all of these different things. And it just shows that it isn't just the Neurodiverse children that need a different way of recording sometimes. It's really important.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Well, and also that creativity, you know, the, the ability to be, you know, able to choose what you're going to do and how you're going to do it and what you feel comfortable with is, is huge. Because you know, they often don't get that independence. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Or that ability to choose.
Kate Bodle:
That's it. Yeah, it is really is building on independence. So those are sort of my main things I think across, across the school. They're not big things. They don't cost anything. I don't think any of those, um, those things that I've mentioned. So there shouldn't be any implication to, you know, on the school whose budgets are really stretched at the moment. So just a different mindset I think, of a teacher. Um, and, and understanding why you're doing those things as well, I suppose that you're doing it to enable, um, the children that need it.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And I imagine that, you know, yes, it might be a little bit tricky at first, like you said, and you might have to have a few classes where you have to, you know, as you said, put the giggles, you know, get the giggles out in the ways of doing things differently. But at the end of the day, it must become an easier classroom as well and a more engaged classroom, which is why teachers have gone into the teaching profession. So I think probably the crossing that fear barrier and being able to, to try it differently is probably very rewarding.
Kate Bodle:
Yeah. I'm being honest with the children. I think sometimes when I, when I've tried something new, especially with technology now, I did a, a lesson the other day and when it, and I was getting the children to record something on Microsoft flip, and for somebody it didn't, their microphone didn't work and somebody else, this didn't work. And, you know, there were a few little hiccups along the way and I just said, do you know what, it doesn't matter. Mistakes happen. It's another good learning curve. And, and I often say to them, you know, it's my fault I didn't think this one through, we needed to have done this, this, this, and this beforehand. I'm really sorry, we'll try it again tomorrow. And, and that being vulnerable yourself again helps those children that do struggle and do find things difficult to realize that it's okay. And that by making, we all make mistakes and it is modeling matters as well as anything else. So I think it's, it's worth having a go. I probably wouldn't go in and change your whole classroom at once. You know, do it one little thing at a time and then you'll see what's really working as well. Um, but hopefully, you know, it's not difficult. Um, and, and, and for those children that have a different way of thinking, neurotypical or not, um, it should help them all.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah, it's looking at education a bit differently and I think it's, uh, you must be a very well loved teacher. I can imagine at your school, <laugh>.
Kate Bodle:
Well it depends. Sometimes <laugh>, it depends really, you know, there's also that side where you have to be a bit strict as well. And you know, I do spend a lot of my time saying, your difficulty is not an excuse. You know, you have to work harder. You've got this and you've got the most amazing brain and you've got a superpower. Um, but it also means at school you're gonna have to work harder. You're gonna be great when you leave education because you can do whatever it is that you want to do. But sometimes, you know, you are gonna have to do the things that are hard and, and education system isn't such that you can just say, we can just be like this for you all of the time. You know, there are some times where you have to sit down and spend an hour doing a test or whatever it might be.
Kate Bodle:
Um, so, you know, there are, there are some things where you do just have to fit in the box, but I think if you've, if you've given them that understanding that you get it and that you care, they don't mind when you are then asking them to do something that's a little bit harder. And I, and I sometimes say, you know, I'm afraid this is just one of those things you have to do, but once we've got through this, we'll have an afternoon where you're going to do something a little bit more that works for you. Um, and that sort of thing. And just making sure that children have plenty of exercise during the day, plenty of movement breaks, um, that makes all the difference as well. Really,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's all good things to set them up for life really, because, you know, there are going to be things in life that you don't like to do and you have to do, but then also finding things that you're passionate about and really care about is really important. Definitely when you find your career path in life and what you're doing, you know?
Kate Bodle:
Definitely. And I think you know, it's, it's so difficult at the moment because getting a diagnosis is hard. You know, you have to pretty much have to pay for it these days to get a diagnosis. And that's, that's tough. And if as teachers we can do the things that, so it doesn't matter whether they're dyslexic or not, I think that's the, that's the sort of aim really, is that you're teaching the children in your class as though they're dyslexic that will scoop them all up. Um, but you're not doing anything that's gonna damage anybody else by doing that. And that way it doesn't matter whether you have a diagnosis or not. I'm, I'm a strong advocate for diagnosis. I think it opens doors. I think it, it gives the adults around the child some clarity. And I think it is really important if you can get it.
Kate Bodle:
But I also know that an awful lot of, for an awful lot of children, a diagnosis is out of reach, um, because of the way things are at the moment in the system. So, you know, it's, it, you are levelling the playing field a little bit. And, and we have posters up in school and, and we talk to children as well about the fact that, you know, it being, making something equitable doesn't always seem particularly fair, you know, for you sometimes get children and say, well, it's not fair, they get to record on the computer, but I have to do all mine on paper. Um, and it's trying to explain that, that sort of, I don't know if you've seen that picture of the, the children looking over the fence, you know, if you give everybody the same thing, it's, it's still not fair. Um, so we have to give children different things at different times to make sure that it's, that life is fair for them and that, you know, there's reasonable adjustments are very normal in our school that, you know, some people have a little toy, some people have a, um, a wobbly cushion, some people have a computer to work on, whatever, you know, it is more about what is making everybody be able to access the, the learning at the same, at the same rate.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And it's so important because the earlier you put in those interventions, the less intervention you need to put in. And with that delay in diagnosis or inability to get a diagnosis for some people, even if you can pay now, I think the waiting lists are like a year. Oh yeah, yeah. In some cases for some, uh, diagnosis. So it's, you know, or even let's say dyslexia, you don't get diagnosed till eight anyway. Um, so yeah, you need to, you need to have the intervention earlier on because otherwise already that self-esteem, the, the falling behind the feeling different, all of those things impact then future learning. So it's, you know, it's a no-brainer to me to put in the, um, the right, the right, um, teaching methods to support everyone, um, until they can hopefully, eventually if they need to get that diagnosis. But already they have that support in place.
Kate Bodle:
Yeah. I mean, to help them, confidence is key. So, you know, and a child's confidence can start to erode when they're really quite young, you know, and it, as soon as they realize that they can't put their shoes and socks on like everybody else, or they can't, you know, start to do their writing like everybody else, or, or they're, they're always the child with their coat on upside down or whatever it might be, you know, little tiny things, the confidence starts to erode. So putting the, the steps in place as early as possible, giving them opportunities to shine in the things that they're good at, good at all the time as well. Those things are really, really important to just make sure that they're, that they're learning the very best that they possibly can be. Um, and that really helps.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah. And having that confidence. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on the Send Parenting podcast this afternoon and for taking the time to take us through your top 10 list. I think it might have even been more than 10, but, um, they're really simple, easy.
Kate Bodle:
Yeah, I think they are, they are simple and easy. And I'm hoping that, you know, um, if, if a parent isn't feeling like the school is, is on their side, go in and just talk to them. And, and teachers are human beings too, and most teachers want to do the best for a child. Um, they might just not know. And, and so showing the training that's available, um, the Microsoft training, I think that that's a really good starting point. If, if parents come in and say, right, this is the top 10 things you've got to do in your classroom and I want you to do it, you know, for my child, I think you might get a little bit more pushback. So it's, it's getting a really good dialogue with the school and making sure that, you know, you are both, I can absolute guarantee teachers have your child's best interests at heart as well. Um, you know, they, they really do. There's, I've never met a teacher who, who just thinks, well, I'm not gonna bother for that child. You know, that that isn't really how things work. So, um, but sometimes they just don't know or they're scared because they haven't done it a different way before and it's just, if they can get that training, um, that's an amazing starting point I think.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And it's amazing that it's free and I will include those links on my website and also, um, brilliant for people to get to so that they can because I know you've also mentioned it's good for parents to go through that training as well to kind of, you know, and do the Microsoft training to, to learn. I mean, once you discover dictation, you might not want to write an email ever again. <laugh>, you know? Yeah. It, uh, completely, it it facilitates adult life as well,
Kate Bodle:
<laugh>. Oh, very much so. I mean, and I think actually there were, there were, you know, there is Microsoft education, but, but it's, yeah, I think it all rooted in, in business beforehand, you know, um, that the accessibility tools came in. They didn't come in for children, they came in for adults. So yeah, definitely it can, it can be life changing for everybody really. And I'm neurotypical, um, have been tested because, uh, uh, you know, I was interested but I, I have a very neurotypical brain and I like the accessibility tools. It, it works for me. So just again, it proves it's, these things are good for everybody. Yeah,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah. And, and, and that is so refreshing because then we don't need to look at people as being different and we all are different, which I is wonderful, but it's also not pulling kids out of the classroom necessarily, that putting, you know, having them all being in the classroom together, it makes us all, um, united, which is nice.
Kate Bodle:
It really does. It really does. And you know, nobody ever as an adult says, oh, you know, well he can't do that cause he didn't learn to read till he was eight. You know, we don't do that as adults, so this is only a problem when they're in school. So let's just make the level playing field level as soon as we possibly can. And then, you know, we, they'll all get there in their own time and they'll all get to do the things that are important for them and, and be able to manage in the way that works best for them. You know, especially if they're supportive parents. And anyone that's listening to your podcast is already ticking that box. So, you know, they should be fine. They'll all be good.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah, they will. Well, thank you for your time today and especially for a recording on a weekend. It's much appreciated. And I, you know, hope you have a lovely next week ahead. Thank you.
Kate Bodle:
Thank you very much.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. If this is your first time listening, please click follow to get new episodes each week. Kate's top 10 tips for the Classroom will be available for you to download on www.sendparenting.com as a pdf as well as links to Made by Dyslexia training courses. I would welcome your comments about the show, wishing you and your family a happy week ahead.