Automated Transcript Episode 14
Episode 14: The SENCO role and how they can support your child
Speaker Alexandra Foster SENCO The Unicorn School
Please excuse any errors as this transcript has been automatically generated
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast, focused on supporting, inspiring, and empowering parents and their Neurodiverse children. I'm your Neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. We'll be speaking weekly with experts in the world of neurodiversity. No topic is too big or too small for us to discuss. We will include things like, how do you navigate education? How can you understand what your child's legal rights are to an education? Practical advice on neurodiversity, and most importantly, hearing the voices of other parents just like you. Looking forward to having you join US weekly as part of the Send Parenting Tribe.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Have you wondered who to reach out to if your child is struggling at school, that is there to support you alongside their classroom teacher? In this episode, we will talk to Mrs. Foster SENCO at the Unicorn, who'll take us through what actually is the role of SENCO and how they're there to help you navigate your child's education within the school system. We'll look at the link between the SENCO and the EHCP and also look at what is the environment for your child and how that changes as they grow up and need to move to different educational settings. So, welcome Mrs. Foster. It is lovely to have you on the Send Parenting Podcast. We're really excited today to learn more about the SENCO role and to understand how parents can actually navigate that and you know, what it means and how parents can communicate and get the best kind of potential and support for their children. But before we get into that, I noticed from your bio that you have a master's in education and that you've been involved in special education for some time, but you also do outreach programs as well in special education. And I was interested in learning more about how you got into special education and then what type of outreach you do.
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah, sure. Thank you for having me. Um, so I started working in special education in 2011 when I started working as a teaching assistant in a special needs school. Um, I'd had a five year break from work. I used to work in publishing. Had a five year break to have my children, and then when I went back to work, I'd had sort of reviewed what I really wanted to do. Um, I had as a teenager, um, worked on a summer and Easter camp for children with special educational needs. It was always something very close to my heart having, um, an uncle who's autistic as well. So it's always something I've been interested in. Um, yeah, and I started working as a teaching assistant, um, at Fitz Warran School in Wantage. And after two years of being there, I started my PGC at Oxford Brooks. So I completed my PGC in a year and then became a classroom teacher there.
Alexandra Foster:
And then whilst I was there, I also did outreach where I would go to local primary schools, and advise them on certain children that they'd asked me to go and sort of observe and advise on. I also started delivering training sessions to the Oxford Training Schools' Alliance, for newly qualified teachers, just to give them a bit more training, um, in SEN, just trying to supplement really sort of make up for the lack of it that exists. Um, yeah, then when I, in 2018, 2017, rather, I studied my master's at Brooks, um, went back to Brooks to do my two year, uh, part-time masters. Um, and I did it in, uh, education, leadership and management. But my final dissertation, I did a thesis on autism and Gender In-congruence and mental health. So it was really looking, and it was, the title was, um, autism and Gender Congruence, uh, support Learners to have a positive sense of Identity? Because the whole area of autism and identity is something I'm really, really interested in and continue to do my own personal research into.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That's fascinating. Well, I'm really, we're really lucky to have you on the show today. Um, you have a, a, a wealth and breadth of experience and also it sounds like a real passion, um, for kids with special education needs. Can you, if you were to describe what is the role of SENCO from your perspective and how that kind of fits in a specialist school versus a mainstream school? It sounds like you have experience in both.
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah, so one of the sort of, I was thinking about and what the key aspect of SENKO earlier is really that that liaison, so you're liaising between parents, between staff, therapists, local authority, just trying to make sure that those lines of communication are really clear and that everybody's really focused on what the individual needs of the child are and how they are being met in school. So it's really sort of a lot of coordinating, not just meetings, but just really looking at, you know, what are we doing for children? What could we be doing better? The difference I find in a special school is that I work with a group of very experienced staff. I know from talking to SENKO in a mainstream school, a lot of their job involves almost trying to get staff on side a little bit more and understanding sort of some of the, the needs that the children have and the adjustments they might need to make.
Alexandra Foster:
I'm very fortunate on that, you know, a lot of my, most of the staff I ever work with are on the same page as me and are keen to sort of incorporate what they can. So yeah, it's a lot of that just really liaising, um, having a lot of meetings <laugh>, um, and, and, and also in, in terms of the EHCP process, it is a legal process when you're doing around annual reviews, but also in the process of, um, applying for an EHCP. So you've really gotta be on it and, you know, just make sure that the process is followed to the letter
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And that opens up a whole other interesting lines of questions because, you know, with EHCP getting the EHCP, I know that do you do it yourself as a parent? Do you, does the SENCO help you with it? How does it work? You know, it's a confusing situation. And then how do you, and then the next step is how do you implement it? What would, what would your thoughts be on that?
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah, I'm really aware that for parents there's a lot of mixed messages. Um, and one of the key things that came out at the SEND review that was done earlier this year that the government published was that there needs to be much more joined up thinking between different local authorities because, you know, there's a different format for every EHCP, there's different paperwork and we deal with six different local authorities here on, on a daily basis. And I have to sort of think, which paper were they even called? The forms have different names. So I think that sort of trickles down to parents as very mixed messages because there isn't a clear and definite sort of plan of that you need to do this and then you need to do this. I have always encouraged parents to do their own application, just for expedience if I'm having to do all the applications, that's going to be slower than each parent doing this individually.
Alexandra Foster:
Um, and you know, that just getting that application started, it's, it's quite an emotional toll. And I always say to parents, be really kind to yourselves because, you know, it's very counter intuitive as a parent to sit down and write down all the things your child struggles with or can't do. Because as a parent, you just wanna sing all the things they can do. I think actually if for a parent, if they feel that little bit more in control of it, that can help if they feel like they're doing it. So, um, yeah, there are a lot of mixed messages and I try where possible just to support parents and just explain, you know, as I understand it, how, you know, the most sort of effective way to deal with the local authority and, and to sort of get your application in.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah, it's, uh, it's uh, it's a minefield really for parents because some of them, some of them wait for the SENCO or they view the SENCO as a gate to getting it, and, and they don't understand that they can. And I'm guilty of this myself, you know, I didn't understand it at first.
Alexandra Foster:
I think that, you know, with like with any role, SENCO change <laugh> and you could be in a situation where one SENCO starts it for whatever reason. They may leave, they may be poorly, they may go maternity leave, and then somebody else has got to pick it up. And that, you know, there's a lot of sort of variables. If I think if you're leaving it for the, for the school to do, I mean, we always say, you know, we hundred percent support the application and that we'll do a school report and we'll gather any information required, but we suggest the actual application comes from the parent. Um, I, I speak to quite a lot of parents, um, not just in school I'm in in now, but just through friends, you know, people are forever putting me in touch, <laugh>, oh, I've got a friend, Liz, can you speak? So I have a lot of conversations and, um, quite have a lot of people say, well, I can't do it. I'm waiting for the SENKO to do the application. And I'll say, no, just, just do it yourself. You know don't wait for them.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That is a great message to put out there because I know I was completely confused about it as well. So it's <laugh> it's about as clear as mud and as you said, with all the different local authorities having different paths, you might talk to one parent who had this journey that was, you know, super fast and went through the system really quickly and you're in another authority and it's taking years, um, <laugh>
Alexandra Foster:
And it really does, um, change between which, depending on which local authority you are dealing with and the timing as well, um, you know, post covid, it has gone just through the roof. I'm really aware for parents now that it's just taking so much longer because there's still I think dealing with a backlog of all that time off and all the disruption, but also that, that period of home learning where a lot of parents suddenly thought, oh my goodness, my child became very aware of their child's needs in a way that they hadn't necessarily been before. It has gone through the roof, you know, I speak to local authorities and they are just swamped, um, at the moment.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah. And underfunded as well. So that doesn't help, help matters either. So yeah, it's a broken system, but it's a system we have to work within. Um, and even before the EHCP, in terms of parents who have children that they, they might, you know, as you said, COVID kind of illustrated that they might have learning difficulties or, you know, they're struggling to read or they're not getting those reading books that, that other people in the class are having. Because oftentimes you don't have any neurodiverse friends who have children like yours. So you're kind of figuring it out on your own. Yeah if people have concerns in school, you know, how do they approach the SENCO if the SENCO hasn't picked up on the child, due to classroom sizes and a lack of funding and a lack of, I imagine they have very large caseloads in mainstream school. What kind of advice could you give a parent who suspects that something isn't quite right from a learning perspective with their children?
Alexandra Foster:
I mean I would always say, you know, have a good chat with the class teacher as well because they'll know them really well and just say, you know, do you think, because I think from a teacher's point of view, a lot of teachers don't want to say to a parent, oh, we think your child might have additional needs because they, they're not sure how that might be taken. Some people might welcome that information, others might find, you know, be very unhappy to hear it. So, you know, I think it's not that they you know, when, when you as a parent can approach the teacher and say, I've got needs, sometimes you may get back, well actually yes, we've noticed this and this as well. And it can encourage a really good conversation, you know, the, the class teachers know them really well, but absolutely also go to the SENCO because they'll be able to signpost you on, right?
Alexandra Foster:
This is what we'll do, you know, get everybody together around the table. This is what we need to implement in school. But also signpost you to some sort of external agencies that might be able to help you as well. There's a lot of really good groups out there to support families when you haven't got those, um, sort of friends in your close circle who've had the same experiences as you. Um, you know, there's, um, autism and family support in Oxfordshire are brilliant and, you know, just one example, there's a lot of places that your SENCO will be more aware of them and be able to sign post you. But I would say as well, you know, if you really feel that there is something that needs to be, that needs to be done that isn't happening, you know, really just say Please, can we just sit down and talk about this? Don't worry about being a demanding parent, you know your child best. Um, and just say, can we talk about this? Can we ask, you know, what, what is nine times out of 10 it's the most simple adjustments that can make the biggest impact. And also if you make the adjustment for one child in a class of 30, chances are there is going to be another five or six who are also going to benefit from it. So you're actually making the teacher's life a bit easier at the end of the day.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's interesting because it's kind of like there's a taboo from the teacher's side to mention issues. And then there's also a taboo on the parent's side, and I know I'm guilty of it as well, you don't want to think of your child as not being normal. You want them to be normal. So as much as you can stick your head in the ground, the better. Um, but it really doesn't benefit your child. And there's almost a stages of grief or acceptance and then coming out the other end, and a working together with the teacher and and yourself, to realize it's, it's not a death sentence and actually there's huge, as you say, minor things that can be changed to really facilitate learning and facilitate their potential.
Alexandra Foster:
No, absolutely. I think it is it a really good point. You know, and I'm always conscious when I speak to, to parents and I have some quite emotional conversations really. And it's very much because I think you have to, you have to make a shift almost in your, even your long-term expectations. You know as parents who are thinking what my child might this and you have it is almost like a bereavement because you've got to think in different terms. Um, you know, that's not to say there isn't a huge amount of help out there and there isn't a huge amount of support because there is, um, you know, and most teachers are, you know, the great, they ultimately teachers want the best for the kids in their class. And if they've got, you know, would welcome that opportunity to talk to the parents about it and see what adjustments can be made. But if you feel like actually you are not getting that go to the SENCO and if necessary go, you know, go to the head and just say, look, please, can you hear us hear us out here this, we really feel this needs to be done.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah. You have to be an advocate for your own child too. And I know from, from conversations we've had before Mrs. Foster, that there's also a lack of education among the teaching staff, in terms of special education needs. And, uh, so it's a big job for the SENCO really to, like you say, you're in a privileged environment, but, um, it's uh, there's a learning curve there for for schools and teachers as well.
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah, it's huge and it's, you know, it's one of my, so something else I'm really passionate about is just trying to sort of, sort of highlight the fact, the lack of teacher training in special education needs. When you look at a class, your average class of 30 in a main school, mainstream school, they're gonna have probably five or six children there with an s c you know, with a special education need. They may have one with an EHCP, one or two with an EH P and you know, teacher training is so focused on those core skills around the national curriculum scores. They are missing a huge trick here. You know, that there's not enough understanding around autism and anxiety. Um, and again, that's something that can be, you know, solved with quite simple tweaks to the environment. Um, so yeah, it is, it is a real issue.
Alexandra Foster:
Um, I'm actually doing some lectures Oxford Brooks next year in, in the spring, um, 2023. Because I approached them and just said, look, can I come in and talk your PGC students about the role of the SENCO about autism around mental health? Because I thought if I can just, you know, just do a little bit <laugh>, it might just get the word out there that actually, you know, profile of children are changing, you know. And also for us as parents, I look at now what children are doing in primary school, and compare, you know, some of the things I was doing in secondary school, the expectation on across the education system is so much higher than it was say 20 years ago. Some children are just simply not coping. Um, so we do need to think differently about how we teach those children.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's interesting, you know, I, I can relate to it as a doctor with not being taught nutrition, which is such a huge part of health, right? Never was taught it. Uh, similarly with teachers, it's so important to, to understand special education needs because as you say, it doesn't just benefit those with special education needs. It can benefit the whole classroom, um, in a different way of learning. Um, in terms of, um, how, uh, what are your views in terms of kids in mainstream school versus going to a specialist school? And when is the right time to consider the different environments? Um, for a parent?
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah, I mean, it, it's so dependent on the individual. It really is. Um, you know, you may, you get some, some children present very early on in reception year one that they clearly have, um, diverse needs and they need to be in a more specialist environment. Um, others, you, you tend to get, it gets to about year five of primary when that pressure starts ramping up, the sort of whole SATs start looming and that pressure pressure comes in. The teachers don't have as much time for that sort of pastoral level of care and for the sort of the more diverse curriculum. Because it just ramps up a lot more. Um, so I think you do find, and in my experience it is when they get to year five that that's when parents and they're also starting thinking towards secondary and thinking, well, you know, where we live in Oxfordshire, you get a lot of small village primary schools. You may have 15 in year six, you may have only have 120 in the whole school. And then parents thinking, hang on a minute, next year my child's gonna go to a school of 2000 people. My child is not gonna cope in that environment. Um, so it's just really looking at how your child is coping. Um, in terms of, if you're thinking around the sort of the whole EHCP process, um,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And the assessment process as well. Like, so how do you know, how do you know
Alexandra Foster:
The early intervention is better? You know, as with anything, you know, with anything, the earlier intervention is better, but it's, it's, you know, recognizing it but also, you know, just so sort of trying thinking ahead because you may, you may have the most wonderful supportive primary school, very nurturing. You've gotta start really sort of taking a step back and almost trying to emotionally detachment and think, yeah, I want my child to go with their friends and everything. I want them to have that standard mainstream educational experience. And you've also got to think, hang on a minute, what is is that best for them? And for some parents they can feel, I've spoken to parents who feel like they've let their child down by putting them in the special school. Like they've, they've hindered their sort of potential. But I think they've had to make that emotional sort of, um, decision.
Alexandra Foster:
Um, but actually if it's the right place for your child, it's the right place for your child, you know. And I think it's just having, having that conversation with, you know, with your partner, with your family and just saying, you know, well what is best? And also talking to the child, you know, because they, they will tell you, but the difference between primary and secondary is a big leap. And I think that's where a lot, when people, they get to that sort of year five, a lot of parents will start to really become aware. Um, but with the EHCP process and as you're saying the assessment process, it's such a long journey. If you do have, um, a sort of inkling that that's that's the way it's going to go, I would always recommend starting it earlier, the better.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah. It is tricky because you want your child to be normal, quote unquote. And I'm not saying that my child, and yeah, I'm dyslexic. I consider myself, you know, abnormally normal. But it's, you know, um, redefining what, where the best environment is for them. Putting your dreams or what you consider the future to be kind of in your back pocket and kind of say, well what's what's the best for my child? Because as you say, if you go into that large mainstream school where they get lost with lots of different classes, it's also also a time that their hormones are, are starting to kick up. And then you get into the whole mental, mental wellbeing and health. And then that can be a collision course almost.
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and you know, we, one of the lovely parts of my job, and I have lots of lovely parts of my job, but one of the love is the amount of time I get to talk to parents. And parents are great at, they'll contact me if they've got worries, but they'll also contact me just to say how well things are going. So we do get that positive feedback, which is really important. I, like, do I get stories of, um, I've got my child back. Um, you know, you've changed the course of their life. You've done it, not me personally, I'm talking about school. Um, and it's, you know, when you sit back and you look at that and you think you, you know, you can look at certain pupils and you think, ooh, if they'd gone to mainstream, you just, it would've been a very different story for them.
Alexandra Foster:
Um, but that's not saying, you know, some, you know, mainstream schools really do try their best with, you know, getting that provision in place and supporting. But it is harder in a secondary school. It is because as you say, puberty kicks in <laugh> children seem to get to year eight and suddenly discover how to be massively self-conscious and don't want to be different <laugh>. It's really noticeable. You know, we teach performing arts and you know, you can always see the change between year seven and eight. Were in year seven and eight and they're jazz hands and they're going through it. And year eight they're like, don't look at me, don't ask me. And it just, it's just, you can just see it happening. And I think in a, in a mainstream school, if you are being pulled out and put in a, in a say a unit on site or you're doing, you know, it's, I think that's quite hard for a lot of children to deal with. They think, I think they almost feel more different in a mainstream school than if they were just in a completely different school. So, if that makes sense.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
No, it does make sense. I mean, I never, my daughter as you know, has cerebral palsy and has had a diagnosis, dyslexia. And when I moved her to the unicorn, she didn't know that she had a disability even. Right. Because I just, you know, you don't, you don't, you don't bring that up really. Um, you have, you know, funny leg is how she thought of it and, you know, um, she was like, mommy, do you know that my school's for people with disabilities? I said, yes, I do. And I said, but everybody has disabilities. I said, even the people you know in your, your old school who were the top achievers, you know, they, you know, maybe they can't sleep. Maybe they have anxiety. We all have just, some of ours are in education. Some of ours are in different areas, but none of us goes through life without having challenges. And she's like, oh, okay. Um, but it's, she's been able to be the top, you know, be one of the, not the top dog, but she's been able to help other people. She's gotten to develop a different role than in her other school where she was always the one being looked after.
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah, no, definitely. She is a natural sort of mother hand and she's a TA person which is great because I think she's taken ownership of it. And I, you know, I've only had just a really interesting discussion with my colleague this morning, um, around, you know, we, because traditionally we've been to school for dyslexia and we do a lot, a lot around championing dyslexia. But just as the sort of years have gone on, we've got a lot more children, um, who are autistic coming. Either they're autistic when they arrive or they get a diagnosis. Um, and I want to really almost have, get that bit more the open for them to sort of take ownership of it. It's, um, at the moment, especially for young people, teenagers, I mean, I'll follow a lot of people on social media who are really championing their autism and just owning it and saying, actually this is, this is not a bad thing.
Alexandra Foster:
Um, it's, and they don't see it as a disability. You know, this is me, it's part of me, this is who I am. And you know, in the way anybody else has got anything else about their, you know, I've got blue eyes, I've got autism, you know, it's, it's literally like that. But I think that if I'm really passionate about, if, if young people can understand, well actually I feel this way because I'm autistic and that means there's ways I can manage it rather than I feel this way, there's something wrong with me. And then the mental health just drops. Um, I think if they can have that ownership of it, and there are some great teenage champions out there at the moment, um, as younger Sierra Caston, she's written a book, the Autism, the Awesome Guide to Growing Up Autistic, something like that.
Alexandra Foster:
And she's, and she's just really frank and she talks, you know, about, and yeah, it's written for girls. So she, but she even talks about how she copes with her periods because things like that affect autistic children differently. But I just think it's amazing that these conversations are out there and people are talking about it. And it's not necessarily that we need to talk about it in a positive or a negative way because it's, it is just a thing. Just, just talk about it. Just, you know, yeah, this is me, but actually because I'm autistic, I might need adjustments. And it's, um, I had a fantastic conversation with the pupil yesterday who said they joining your football team went up to the coach and said, um, can I just let you know I'm dyslexic so I might need the instructions slightly differently. And I was like, oh, the, that's so empowering. That's so you just hate owning, you know, owning it and just sort of letting other people know and making it, making it work for you. And that's, that's what we try and do here, is just support our children just to say, right, these are my, these are my strengths, these are my difficulties, this is how I work best. And that's, that's what it's all about.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's so, so true. And it's, uh, you know, we live in an era now where this is, you know, it's coming out more and more and it's free to be who you are, you know, um, and to understand we're all different. my, my daughter's best friend is autistic and my daughter is very empathetic and sometimes she doesn't pick up on on when she's upset. So she's had coaching by your school to say, you know, this is what autism is about. And now, I mean, I had a babysitter here looking after the two them, and she said to me when I came to came home, she said, you know, I'm just amazed by these two girls, you know, 11 years old, the way they communicate with each other and the way they like, oh, do you, you understand what I'm saying here? This is how I'm feeling and the, you know, what a, what a great life skill that you can actually communicate and have fun and, and know that we don't have to be all the same. It doesn't, you know, we can, we can work around it.
Alexandra Foster:
No, absolutely. There's so many elements of it. Um, you know, we, we talk around, you know, how, uh, autistic people have generally, and there is no sweeping generalizations with autism, but you know, it can be a characteristic of having a shorter social battery. So they struggled, you know, if you go off like to a, a family, you know, if all the family come around and everything and they, but they can only do about half and they just wanna go upstairs. And it's like getting that message across to parents saying they're not being, they're not being rude, they're not being disrespectful, it's just their social batteries run out and everybody has a different certain social battery. And I think if we can get that message across, it's just, people just need different things. And you know, it, it's so important that if the children can recognize it themselves, so they can say to somebody, well actually my social batteries only gonna, I'm gonna come but I'm only gonna come for an hour because that's how long my social battery will last and then I'll go home. I just think if somebody explained that to me, I'd be like, fine. You know, that makes perfect sense,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
<laugh>. And it's, it's so empowering because they're not getting anxious. They're, they're putting it by their rules. They're doing what they're comfortable with. And that's so empowering. And you know, they're so many, I mean the statistics in terms of mental health after Covid, you know, across the board for children and adults is, is terrible. And to learn those skills to be able to say, Hey, this is what I need, this is what's important to me. That's amazing.
Alexandra Foster:
Yeah. And you know, you are right. I think there is an absolute mental health crisis going on with young people. Um, and you know, there's various sort of, I did a piece of research on it when I was doing my masters'. I approached, you know, asked teachers to fill in questionnaires. What do you think it is? You know, overwhelmingly it seemed to be social media. Um, but I don't think we can blame social media necessarily. But I know from, from my daughter who's a teenager, thank goodness she had social media in lockdown because it was a form of communication. You know, there's, there's positive <laugh>, but I think this, um, you know, and also the increasing video games and just the screen time and everything, it's reducing cost. So there's, there's, I think there's still a lot to be done. And I think that it's very hard for us, our generation, I didn't get my first mobile phone until I was 28 to really understand how that is to grow up within, in this new sort of real digital, you're aware, you know, your social media where everything's online, where everything's analyzed, where, you know, it's this constant communication with other people.
Alexandra Foster:
And if
Dr Olivia Kessel:
You are, and judgment.
Alexandra Foster:
Oh gosh, yeah. And if you are somebody who struggles with that, with social communication, that's really hard. You know, you know, I used to go home from school and they wouldn't speak to my friends for the next day in school and that would chat to my parents. You know, there's tv I do, but it's, it's having that break and I think we're not, we're not having those natural breaks in communication anymore. And I think that can become incredibly overwhelming, um, for some young people, which can then lead to almost like a sensory over a meltdown. And then they, then they have to have enormous force. They just go and sit in their room. But it's not a natural, a natural break.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah. And, and that's where I know I'm guilty. This is apparent that sometimes you have to, you really, you have to monitor it, you have to, uh, set limits to it, even when sometimes you want to get something else done and it's easier for them to be on it. So <laugh>, no. Um,
Alexandra Foster:
<laugh>.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Well thank you very much Mrs. Foster for your time today. I really appreciate it. It has been really, um, inspiring to hear you speak, I have to say, and your passion and, uh, you know, what you are involved with, it's been, uh, inspiring. So thank you. I really appreciate it.
Alexandra Foster:
Thank you for having me.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Thank you so much for listening. If you're new to the show, please follow us as we'll be bringing you amazing people from around the world to support you on your journey with your child one step at a time. Please also follow us on social media. We are on Facebook and Instagram at Send Parenting and we'd love to hear your comments and feedback. Wishing you a good week ahead and looking forward to joining us next Thursday.