EP 96: Empowering Neurodivergent Artists: Accessibility and Inclusivity with Stephen Bailey

Please excuse any errors in this auto-generated transcript

Dr Olivia KesselHost

00:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we start with the episode, I'd like to invite you to become a member of our Send Parenting what's Up? Community. It's a private space designed just for us. Parenting neurodiverse children can come with its own set of challenges, but it's also full of incredible moments of joy and growth. So I wanted to create a space where we can come together as neurodiverse parents to connect, share experiences and offer support to one another with no judgment and a lived in understanding. If you're a neuro navigator like me and have felt alone on this journey, then this is the community for you. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. The link can be found in the show notes or you can direct message me on 078-569-15105, and I can personally add you in, looking forward to hearing from you in the community.

01:39

Today we'll be joined by Stephen Bailey, an award-winning Nerdiverse producer and director with experience in creating accessible work for all. He's currently artistic lead at Vital Exposure. We'll explore Stephen's journey of his own nerdiversity and how this has led him to champion nerdiversity and other disabilities in the theater and arts. We'll discuss some of the barriers, but also some of the solutions to make theater and arts industry more accessible and inclusive for all. For those of you who don't know, vital Exposure is a Hackney-based theater company that focuses on stories from marginalized communities and intersectional stories from a disabled perspective. The company's vision is to create a fairer world where marginalized artists are celebrated and can become creative leaders. It's a super interesting discussion.

02:27

My daughter is really creative and I think that her future lays in theater and arts, and it was really inspiring to see how the world is changing and how accommodations are being made for neurodiversity in theaters and arts and also some of the barriers that still exist. Definitely worth a listen. So welcome, stephen. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today. You are an award-winning director and producer who happens to be neurodivergent as well, and you have a long-term experience working and making theater and arts accessible, which is something that I know is super interesting to a lot of my listeners and parents, including myself, who has a daughter who's very interested in theater and the arts. Could you start us with just a little bit of your journey and what inspired you and what gave you your love of the theater and arts?

Stephen BaileyGuest

03:20

Hmm, well, thank you for having me um a great question. I honestly it probably overlaps with neurodivergence in that um I was diagnosed in my mid-20s. Um, I found university very tough. Um, directing was the only thing that really felt joyful and fulfilling um during that time. And such that, despite kind of having a career path which was slightly more conventionally kind of aimed towards, I did a history degree, I was going to do a law conversion.

03:54

Um, I went finding life quite tough right now I only really want to do it if I do um this. And then from there I managed to get into a drama school and I graduated and I did bits of assisting and then began making more of my own work and this kind of built up to. Yeah, I was fortunate enough to go and win a significant award to make a show that originated at Nottingham Playhouse last year called the Real Imagined History of the Elephant man, which is by far the biggest piece I've made. And then shortly after that, I was offered a permanent role as artistic lead of a company called Vital Exposure, which is a disabled led theater company, and that's currently mostly what I do, though I have other bits of freelance around the edge.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

04:37

So spice and variety to life, and it's interesting, though, that you were drawn to it before your diagnosis as well. You know, you do find a lot of creativity and a lot of I mean, that's that's where my daughter's happy places too. She's never she got um, she's doing Lambda right now and she got two distinctions and she she's never had a distinction in her life. In fact, she didn't even know what a distinction was. She's like mommy, why are you so happy about that? I'm like and I had to explain to her what it? Because it was somewhere where she could flourish and actually not uh it it you know. It's somewhere where she it's not difficult. It's somewhere where you know it it it's uh, a passion. So it sounds like you also found that before diagnosis.

Stephen BaileyGuest

05:15

I think so. I think, like neurodivergence is such a huge umbrella um that I think different people interact and enjoy different bits of it, um, or kind of like theater or performance. In that sense, um, I think for me I've just come out of a writer, not a writer. I've just come out of a meeting with a writer, um, about a potential project, and we are both neurodivergent and we were saying that it's looking at what's it? Looking at? Um media, media and politics, the interrelation of them, and kind of both. Noting there's a slightly newer divergent desire to go and question like, but does that actually happen or does that link actually stand out to analysis? There's kind of that.

05:56

Um, I feel I am a, dare I say, good director because I have spent so much time watching and analyzing um conversation that, though I still find it at times challenging myself um, shaping it and hitting nuance between in a situation I'm watching and cultivating, feels very easy or kind of like. Um, kind of intuitive in a way, of kind of like there's skills I can put in here. So, yeah, I think, I think certainly wanting to find somewhere where there was expression, and indeed meeting with the therapist I'm with yesterday, which is neurodivergent focus we were noting kind of my own personal aversion to kind of feelings of uncertainty. Aversion to kind of feelings of uncertainty or awkwardness are matched by a quite persistent desire to put that in my work for the audience. So how much it is. I think letting different things out and connecting things is certainly interesting, absolutely.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

06:56

And I mean as a neurodivergent individual. Have you found barriers in the theatre and arts, have doors been closed to you, and what challenges have you faced?

Stephen BaileyGuest

07:06

Yeah, I think there's two sets of barriers there. So there is one which I have experience and still experience, which is basically mentioning the words, is a problem and makes people not interested in working with you. And I've been explicitly told that, um, really, as an assistant and indeed interview stuff, which, yes, which is the case of in each case, it was well, yes, you could go and do a formal complaint, but in a small industry, what do you, what do you do, etc. Um, but yes, distressing, I would say a minority, um, but uh, worrying persistence of that. I think, certainly, though I guess we completely, as an assistant, assistant director, kind of you do, coming up you're assisting someone else. I think there's the kind of a for some people, an incorrect belief of like, oh well, I'll have to support my assistant, and it's like, no, that's not what this means, that's not how access works, that's not how these things are. So there's that. And then, honestly, there's, it is a business based a lot on interpersonal relationships which is interesting and challenging. I find it much easier being at the head of a company which has a slightly clearer kind of vision and focus to it than kind of me as a person.

08:17

Um, and rehearsals are intense things, um, and it is hard to and I think each process is a new experiment in accommodating different people, be that myself or others or hearing about others being accommodated. There's a general willingness that that should be done. I think there's some interesting elements going on in terms of what I might want to say. Um, I think we're still learning as an industry. That kind of like a positive attitude is not necessarily everything um and building. Saying we're still learning as an industry. That kind of like a positive attitude is not necessarily everything um and building. Saying we're very willing to support. It's kind of like have you really thought through in detail what this might mean or how to interpret this person's access right in detail and follow through on it?

08:57

Um, and that happens with because, for whatever reason, um, theater conflates disabled artists, deaf artists, chronic legal artists, neo-individualists together and there's a lot of obvious overlap there not necessarily complete overlap, sameness, but the stories I'm telling are not unusual for artists with other different access needs, physical access needs etc. As well. However, yeah, like there is certainly more progress than resistance, but still plenty of resistance. But I don't think that's necessarily out of order for various bits of society. You know, bet you would know better, you talk to more people, but um, it is one though. I still think, despite an industry that wants to think of itself as very liberal and forward thinking, there is still a bit of learning and thinking to kind of get through, um, and I do always wonder how much of that is. The main historical engagement with neurodivergence, or indeed physical disability, that theater or film have done has been in these kind of slightly strange performances of it by actors that do not have that experience and kind of go and say like, actually what might be authentic here is taking some time but happening.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

It's interesting because it's. It's almost like there's a willingness, it sounds like, but there's also a perception that it's going to be more difficult or more challenging. So, therefore, is it something we really want to do? So I guess it's experience and working with individuals like yourself and others that breaks down those barriers.

Stephen BaileyGuest

10:28

And, like I would say it is difficult and it is challenging because we are asking you to go and shift a system that you have relied on. The argument will always be actually, after you shifted that system and change things, actually many more people benefit. Um, and a thing of mental pride I have is like, by and large though they're still stressing them, I generally have very strong feedback from the rooms, like rehearsal rooms. It's that I facilitate in terms of supportiveness, patience, understanding and still managing to get good work at the end. Um. So my advocacy would be yeah, like small adjustments and small degrees of thinking of other people, um, do move things forwards. Um.

11:07

That said and I have done shows with people with more extensive needs, that requires a different, additional level of support that might be more bespoke, um on that occasion and again needs to be thought through carefully. But there are companies, uh, such as access all areas in london or hijinks in wales, um, who are invested in supporting people um who are neurodivergent, but often with um additional disabilities or additional diagnoses and additional access barriers, and working with them as professional actors and producing some really amazing talent I read read on the website actually or I think it was maybe the press release for your position at Vital Exposure that you're looking at disability as a lens rather than a subject, and I really liked that quote and that's kind of what you're saying now as well.

11:54

Yeah, I think. So I got some questions when I won that award for kind of in like press stuff of kind of how is your directing neurodivergent? I was like I really don't know. I don't think anything is that different about it, but there obviously are quirks, such as I identified with you, but also it's my brain, so I don't really know which bits of my brain I can take out and say, well, these bits are the strange bits and these bits are the standard bits. In this sense, um, and also in terms of neurodivergent diagnosis, um, I think there have been a significant number of, um influential theater directors who probably are neurodivergent and I think it's what's made them good. Um, yeah, we're going any further than that, but I don't think I'm, I think any extent that I am unusual. It's just talking slightly more publicly about it and that was just finding that was what was needed to be able to actually to allow me kind of fair access to application systems and so forth.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

12:43

Yeah, Um, which, yeah, it's, and I totally get that, because you know, uh, I'm neurodiverse as well. It's just who you are, it's not like a separate part of you and you don't want to, you know, and it's, it's the pluses and the minuses and it's just who you are. So I'm completely on the same page with you, as I'm sure a lot of the parents. Their children are their children. It's not something that, but unfortunately in schools and also in other systems, you need to sometimes call it out so that you can flourish and thrive in those systems. And it's really the systems I think that hopefully with time will change. Do you know what I mean?

Stephen BaileyGuest

13:20

I think so. Yeah, I mean like obviously my schooling didn't have a adjustment because there wasn't a kind of diagnosis there, and I think the answer there is not only was I still am like a relatively skilled masker of trades, but also I was very academically successful. So therefore, under the way schools assess things, everything was fine and yeah, the kind of the other things that were going on didn't necessarily need to be examined so much because on that metric I was still performing very well. But yes, I do think the thing I think which is tough in the industry and I don't know what I was in the theatre industry and I'm kind of, yes, industry, and I don't know what I was in the theater industry and I'm kind of, yes, in a leadership position, I know what I can do is the pressure that's put on people to advocate for themselves and the labor that takes that each um engagement.

14:06

It's not just an acting job which is demanding intense hours and intense skill, intense process, but also you have to do the initial bit where you have to go and um advocate for your right to have adjustments made, to do your best work. Um, and that that sometimes is kind of quite a complicated, onerous conversation is something I would like to go and see. Stop or decline in that sense and there are, there are gestures towards that happening. Um, and I think there's also there kind of like there's not a, there's not a simple answer. I've been looking at some work on. I mean, if I say access rider, that's, that's going to be a term people are familiar with.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

14:43

Yes, great maybe explain it actually, because I don't know.

Stephen BaileyGuest

14:46

So it's probably a good idea, it's like a work document which basically is if you, um are disabled and you're divergent, uh, the reasonable adjustments you are allowed to request. So, if I was deaf, I'd be requesting a bsl interpreter, first and foremost, um to work between the deaf person and the non-bsl users in the work room. Um, it might involve a wheelchair accessible rehearsal room, it might involve taxes or so forth, um, and there's kind of nuances around that. Like um, I've worked with various uh deaf performers and they have more complex. There are things they want to go and flag in terms of awareness they want to raise of, as I am not hearing, these things. It's not just that an interpreter is needed to communicate between the two of us, but there's also consider this, consider this. However, they're a little bit more checklist than I find some neurodivergent stuff can be, where there's not a simple one sentence answer. If you do this, it will be adequate, because things are fluid and that can generate and I've seen this access writers that are incredibly long and I think kind of feel overwhelming and hard to engage with. As the person perceiving them.

15:55

It can result in ones that I was probably more inclined to and try to think about, which was so minimal. They're like oh don't, don't worry, we'll just work it out which actually kind of is a permission to not do anything. Um, or you get ones that kind of maybe hit what I'm saying but don't really offer very much in terms of like practically what can be done. Um, and that's a difficult thing that I think we are. So the company Vital Exposure that I'm artistically for, we do a fair amount of research, overlap stuff, and we are intending to do quite a lot of time looking at neurodivergence next year and kind of within that. That's something I want to um look at and think I don't think we've quite cracked it yet. Not to say we've cracked um access accommodations for, uh, other disabilities, but like how to use that language in an empowering, useful way. But also specific, but also succinct is an interesting series of challenges actionable and actionable, so that it actually makes it, facilitates it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

16:46

You know, and, as you say, it's very personalized. You meet one person with autism, you meet one person with autism, so it it's very varied, or or adhd, or whatever, so that that that that's a hefty goal for you for for next year.

Stephen BaileyGuest

16:59

Yeah, I mean we won't get everywhere and there's other stuff on it, but I think it's like also now being very much kind of like a formal employer, like if I get an access, what it says I have ADHD, so I am forgetful. It's like great, how can we support you to minimize this and to ensure that you are not being left out of the process. It's not just saying that's the situation, it's saying what extra resource should we commit towards you? Um, in that way and I think in some cases people don't know or haven't thought about it and I'm actually working with an access support person for the first time which is massively shifting um, what I, what I'm able to do and a lot of that is getting past the shame of going like, actually, if I need to send 20 emails to 20 different people with slight variations, it's much better to have my assistant draft them up and me check them over than me trying to do that, because I will invariably send something to the wrong person, um or incomplete, and it always happens, um, and that's their job.

17:51

And it's okay to say can you do it. It's okay to say can you handle my diary and when things are booked in, because I inevitably otherwise end up double booking myself or getting confused by it, and these are not bad things, and indeed most of those things. If I was a slightly high up in terms of theater and like running a building, I'd have someone doing that anyway. I'm just asking for it slightly earlier because I'm knowing it's unleashed. Unleashing that's a bit of a strong word, but releasing a much more significant amount of my work ability to go and do things which I don't need support with, or maybe actually a bit more specialized.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

18:22

Yeah, and you know, and taking away that stress from it as well, like the solicitor that helped me navigate my daughter's EHCP plan, he's severely, severely dyslexic and he has someone from the Access to Work program, which helps people get into work, who does all his emails for him, because that's something that is really challenging, you know, and it is just taking away those little barriers. You know that. You know that can make you look unprofessional and can make you fail at what you're trying to do, when it's really something that is can, as you say, be easily removed. To then let you get on with what you're good at.

Stephen BaileyGuest

18:54

It is exactly that, and I think, in terms of, like, shifting perceptions, it's convincing people that once these accommodations are made, things will be different and it's not just a veneer of, it's not just kind of-.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

19:06

You don't want to do it or you're too lazy to do it.

Stephen BaileyGuest

19:09

I don't like saying like kind of my diary stuff is incompetence, but it's the wrong word to use. But incompetence, but it's the wrong word to use, but it's not that all the way down, it's just there's certain things which do not work and once you get past that, it works really, really well. And I've just not figured out this bit or the societal rules I'm being asked to play around. Just don't see conducive with the way I see this. But I can offer this solution which gets past that. And then we get to the stuff which is me and is good and you want to work with and that's, yeah, interesting and helpful.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

19:36

Yeah, and I mean there's just so many applications to that in the world you know, or even in schools. Wouldn't it be great if you know your child could go with you know? A list of if, actually this if you help me with X, y and Z, I can actually flourish at school. You know.

Stephen BaileyGuest

19:52

I mean, there's so many applications for that and I think it must be really like.

19:55

This is purely again you put it on a short bit I think it's very challenging with children because, at the end of the day, not that adults actually are all that rational, um, and sensible as people, and I think we kind of learn that as we get older but obviously, yes, children can both have genuine needs.

20:07

Well, there's always a genuine need and it always kind of feels genuine, but kind of like, yes, how does one do social regulation? How does one do um, are you actually being more difficult right now than you? Because that is, I would imagine, incredibly hard and I wouldn't like, I wouldn't know what to do and I find it like, yeah, I have it unprofessional even now, kind of like wait, okay, so are we not meeting your needs properly? Or because obviously it's theoretically possible to work with someone that is neurodivergent and also has bad habits that are not neurodivergent based um, and wanting to make sure you don't gravitate towards bad habits every time, um, and not let your own unconscious bias come in, in that sense is an important thing you were describing my parenting journey on a daily basis, steven yeah, well, also they're not going completely the other way of going like, oh, actually everything must be related to this.

20:58

Yeah.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

20:58

Kind of everything I mean my daughter has said to me I have a disability, I can't do the dishwasher. I'm like, excuse me, no, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's walking that line between accommodation and between there's a menopause moment for me, but it's between.

Stephen BaileyGuest

21:15

It's walking that fine line, both as an employer and as a parent, and it's making sure that neither one is taking advantage of the situation and and also not trying to let your biases overtake you when they might be hindering you from seeing with the right lens Indeed and I think certainly like kind of my go-to in, like in in theater, like um, it's a bit cliche but, like you're aware that actors are eccentric people, we have spent decades of permissing sometimes things that probably shouldn't be permitted in terms of rehearsal rooms and processes and kind of like oh, it's just known that this act is always 10 minutes late and it's, but they are successful enough.

21:48

We're not going to complain about it. Um, so that these things do already exist in terms of, like the balances and the social um judgments people are making. Um, it's just, these ones are maybe sometimes slightly different and um, that noise came through um sometimes slightly different and um has a slightly different um vernacular around it in terms of diagnosis etc. Which I think is useful in terms of securing legal protection but also makes it more scary. It's not just a little quirk, it's something medical and I think that affects how people interface with it and interface with you. Yeah.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

22:23

And I mean I imagine that there's potentially a hesitancy to even sometimes admit or to you know, to not ask for the accommodations and to just try to struggle along.

Stephen BaileyGuest

22:34

So I think it's been up and down and kind of um, I kind of like. At one point was disclosing relatively heavily in terms of kind of like medical terminology and I've gently stepped back from that and now I like, if pushed, I'll say like, well, I'm neurodivergent, but mostly actually, um, I would just list this is what I need to do my best work. You don't actually need to know the reasons underneath it, um, but yes, in terms of, of applying it's kind of. It was always kind of the juggle of kind of like, who are the people that are going to look at my paper statement with that on and go, oh, I'm not so sure, um, or color how they want to engage me in a very certain way, versus if I don't put that on them in the interview, and going, oh, actually interviews for me are particularly difficult, um, and indeed I've got into coming up for a freelance gig where it took a couple of emails to go like, can you just let me know what you want to talk about in advance? Like, but we don't want you to prep and I'm like, no, no, no, this does not work for me, the half hour of looking at what you're interested in beforehand, when we give good answers in this, in in our chat, and hopefully lead you to employing me, thinking I'm good, I'm not requesting homework for the sake of it, it's just useful for me. And it took a few iterations to get past that.

23:38

Um, my point being, if you've not declared that, then declaring it like kind of how do you negotiate interview stage, and like a lack of support in that sense and I was aware that I was bombing far too many interviews in person to not and particularly kind of the assisting bit of it is very interview heavy in terms of trying to come up it was like there's no way I can go and make this work, whereas, interestingly, I think some of the older directors or more established directors that I do go like, oh, I think, I think there might be something there.

24:06

They came up to the system which is much more, much less formalized application processes and much more just it's networking. It's problematic in its own ways, but kind of not going through that meat grinder of standardization. Um, so yeah, that's kind of what led me to doing it, but then that impacted the kind of work I did and the kind of other, the other people I was meeting and what elements of what interests me in work which has taken to me to kind of some of the fields I work in now.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:33

Yeah, that's it, which is, you know. It's interesting where the world, where our life takes us on these journeys and when things are hard, where it takes you and it's taking you now to being the artistic lead at Vital Exposure. Tell me a little bit about your role there.

Stephen BaileyGuest

24:46

Sure, my role essentially I. We curate, select and often lead on or assist in delivering the artistic activity that we do, and most of what we do is artistic activity. Although a small company, we have um regular. It's not government funding, it's arts council funding, but it's kind of roughly the same but um in the same way that some bigger theaters do. Um, and we have a commitment as a charitable organization to do a certain amount of stuff um a year, most of it being kind of artistic. So for us that means currently I would say we try and make one new piece of work, that often we try and tour a bit within the kind of current economic circumstances and then we also do a series of currently a series of research projects. We're in collaboration with several academics. I've just come out of doing a week when this is not neurodivergent focus but we're looking at captioning.

25:41

Captioning is used quite a lot in theaters, is when kind of the text is displayed as, not just on the sides, maybe as part of the set or kind of part of the narrative. Um, and captioning has been framed very much as a access, um need for deaf people, which is true, but actually more than 20% of the population benefit from captioning, including neurodivergent people. But what we actually were looking at is in terms of people with english as a foreign language. So we spent a week looking at captioning in hindi and kind of going is it dual captioning in hindi and english? Is it just hindi, is it english? What kind of styles, what kind of works best?

26:15

And we've got a couple more encounters like that coming up over the rest of this calendar year. In that sense, so that that's kind of where we're at. It's kind of going like this is something that could be useful and has not been looked at before. And we know we've got some academics who are linguists and so forth that are interested in because we're dealing with translation and what is translation, and that's always something that's interested me and kind of like how does one translate? Kind of cultural reference and kind of like tone, all of those elements.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

26:42

Um, and yes, that will go what's interesting also is that you know a lot of just everyone now. You know scrolls and uses social media. They all have captions. So a whole generation of people are used to seeing with captions and I know, like my daughter's neurodiverse and I see her friends too They'll have the TV on quite loud with the captions because it it helps. Yeah, I mean, I think they have become much more normalized.

Stephen BaileyGuest

27:06

I think the facility to deliver it has become much more extensive.

27:10

Yeah, and I think, yes, various encounters and kind of like the global nature of the internet has made it very useful, very necessary um, and it's kind of interesting in that sense that what theater has not worked out yet, I don't kind of know.

27:23

It's something that came out of our conversation is obviously, with theater you're only putting the captions big at the back, behind everyone. Obviously we now use them sat small in front. But how you can actually do that on screen is kind of also on stage is quite challenging in terms of sight lens and so forth. And also kind of like if you're looking at doing kind of more like design based stuff in terms of fonts and animation and so forth, that works less well down here and more up there. So kind of there's an interesting evolution there. But yeah, I feel, I feel or I hope kind of the resistance to captioning, which definitely exists, is starting to kind of fade out because of that um and all sorts of things. My partner's um italian, she's bilingual, she's done post-grad in english but certain accents she's not used to on tv and she definitely needs captions for um because her ear is not um, accustomed to them, um, and indeed there's probably some that apply like that for me as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

28:15

So, yes, so, in terms of the because I know you have written a there's been a consultation report. It was Dr Mandy Precious, if my memory serves me correctly. Excellent, I like that last name, precious which looked at, kind of you know, you guys as looked to look and see what kind of things you wanted to pursue in the future by doing, um, this consultation. Maybe you could take us through that consultation and then look at you know, what your next steps are from that with the lens of neurodiversity that you're going to be doing next year. Sorry, that's a big question, but let's start with what the consultation showed.

Stephen BaileyGuest

28:53

Cool, you dropped me very slightly, but I believe you said can you talk to you through the?

29:00

consultation and kind of where we're going from there.

29:01

So the consultation absolutely actually predates me.

29:02

Um, I only started in this role in february and it was done the year before um, but it was a really useful doctrine to come in to and that is, over 100 disabled artists across the country were spoken to and it guided certain things like talking about like disability as kind of the way we look at the material not being like the subject of the story itself, or something that came through very strongly in that, an awareness that though there had been, though there's increased disabled, neurodivergent representation on stage, kind of like it's been very focused on telling the somewhat medicalized stories of those experiences rather than going how about it?

29:35

Someone who is a wheelchair user, who is also a lawyer, kind of these things which do actually happen, um, so that's kind of um, yeah, that kind of is something that's come through, I think, definitely a desire to kind of be innovative and push through a real big desire to talk about what we might call intersectionality, so kind of people who are disabled or neurodivergent but also have other lived experiences or lived identities that are maybe suffering from suffering from experiencing barriers, um, or kind of um don't fit a certain uh group. Like I'm aware, the though not exclusively shifting kind of um disabled artists on both stage and screen often are, more than the population, overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly middle class. There's all sorts of reasons for this and that is something we are looking at doing a lab investigation of um in february in bristol, um with some academics as well, and control about the different intersecting kind of like challenges that exist there. So that came through super interesting I look forward to hearing about that.

30:38

I think so. I think there's. I think that's a that's going to be a very nuanced and dual conversation. We've done some kind of like pre-interviews with artists about it and because there's issues on all sides in terms of how these things sit together, um, but there's certainly there's that there was a lot of curiosity of talking a bit more about, kind of how neurodivergence fits within paradigms of disability and language of disability companies in the country has not shifted in the last 20 years, but suddenly we have identified and validated neurodivergence as an identity and said all of these people should go to those companies as well, which is actually a large percentage of people which now these companies have to support as well, but also supporting their original core constituents, um, which jenny was more physically disabled led, and it's kind of.

31:34

Is it healthy to put us together in terms of like funding an opportunity? Are we clouding people out? Is it problematic that I show up on a theater's equal opportunities form, um, the same as someone whose access needs are actively more costly because they have to actually hire an interpreter or make building adjustments or pay for taxes or any of these things, and that's something that you know worries me at times. Um, yeah, uh, I don't necessarily cynically, but I think it's an easy way of doing things at times. So, kind of there was talk around that enthusiasm which we are looking at, and kind of tech.

32:09

What can tech do as a touring disabled led company? Could we tour in a way that doesn't actually involve trying to move people around the country and demanding long commutes from audience members? Is it being doing a more of a hybrid kind of performance style? Is that kind of what we want? So that that's also kind of sitting there. So those are some of the investigations. Basically, it's kind of what interests us and what we feel we have the partners available for in the kind of the moment of what we feel might shift the conversation and you also talked, I think last time.

32:37

We spoke about some a project with accessibility for children in the theater yes, you're completely right, that is one that's in there actually was pitched to us. It didn't come with a consultation, but we were approached by a venue called zed arts in manchester who were like we're starting to look at this and they said the thing which seems obvious now, but kind of, for deaf audiences, you do captioning, as in reading. What do you do for the four-year-old deaf child? How do they engage with the work? Um, and I was just like, oh, actually, yeah, our entire access model is based on assuming all disabled audience members as adults. Um, which is odd, um, but again, that's the age when you, when you're more able to advocate for yourself. So that's kind of where it's come from.

33:17

So, kind of looking back and thinking about that was really important to me, and I think integrating accessibility and disabled or neurodivergent representation and stories early normalizes it. It's not something you know adult life and go, oh, this is this new thing. It's like, well, no, these people have always been here because we're going to stop splitting them off and putting them in a separate area and then smushing them back together in adulthood and then have to deal with otherization. So, yes, that's going to be really interesting. I completely forgot about that one. But, yeah, that's going to be in probably 2025, maybe 2026 in terms of our schedule. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

33:51

Excellent. Well, it sounds like you're going to be busy next year.

Stephen BaileyGuest

33:54

Yeah, I think so, like they're all. They're all small encounters, like kind of like the production is always like the big thing. And oh wait, this is coming out in like two, three weeks time. Right, yeah, I can talk about it. It's been announced by then, as long as it comes out the 31st of October. So, yes, we're producing a play called Blackbird Hour by the wonderful artist called uh barbillet uh, which is premiering at the bush um in london, if people know it, uh, it is. I don't the dates, for me I believe it's from february, the first uh for four weeks, and then we go to um bristol old vic uh for a week at the beginning of march and uh then leads playhouse and then live theater in newcastle and wow, well, you have to give me the links and stuff, so I'll include it in the show notes.

34:36

But yes, I was kind of going. Oh, I can't talk about it, but if you were delaying because the announcement was the 31st, I believe I'm allowed to have said this, as long as you don't tell me beforehand.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

34:46

No, I promise my lips are sealed. No one will know, and it's think you know. It would be lovely and we have listeners all around england. So it's great that you're going to be taking the theater on the road and I think a lot of people would really love to come and and see that. So I will get the links from you. People can download it, uh, from the show notes or from my website as well. Um, so that's exciting. So that's going to be in february may of or february.

Stephen BaileyGuest

35:14

Tuesday, march yes, it's February, it's in London. Then there's a short tour in March and we'll see after that. We're hopeful there might be a second tour of it if it kind of does well, but we'll have to go and see. But it's the. Yeah, it's great. It's the first production under like my tenure and I'm really excited about it. And Barbale is an amazing writer and a pleasure to collaborate with.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

35:34

Very exciting. Well, I'm glad I decided to delay this podcast, because that's very exciting news. It's been a real pleasure, stephen, to have you today to really be talking about this topic. Is there any three top tips that you would give to parents who have neurodiverse children, who are interested in theater and arts? Any advice you could give them?

Stephen BaileyGuest

35:57

Crikey, it's a good question. I think I would say that I'm certainly aware that more and more theaters offer like relaxed environment performances, particularly for family shows generally, shows in general, but particularly for family shows. I'll do that with a proviso and this is something we want to look at next year of like what is classed as relaxed environment seems to often vary a bit in terms of what these things mean, and we'd love there to be some more standardization happening. Uh. So I think that in terms of kind of um engagement, um, I think I would say I know a lot of people. It's been very fulfilling for us. If they're kind of there's any hesitancy around it, I think it's worth trying.

36:35

I don't think it's necessarily for everyone, but I would strongly um encourage it and certainly, if it ends up kind of being a very like a strong interest, a strong passion, which it probably is for me, it's a very interesting and kind of fulfilling one um.

36:51

And then, yeah, I would say that, by and large, theatrics, and particularly probably like facilitators for young people, um do want to accommodate and think about these things. Um, and encourage you to kind of going back to our combat access writers like as much as possible, give the short, sharp, clear answer of, like these are the things that are needed and I think there generally will be an attempt to try and um deal with it and to kind of integrate in that sense. But certainly, yeah, I I feel actually kind of like on the engagement end and I don't draw necessarily a hard line between engagement and professional, because they can mix them both very, very well. But certainly on the engagement end, the things I'm talking about are less there. When I'm, when I'm kind of being blocked, it's often with like a a uh appeal to this nebulous idea of professionalism, uh, which means certain things are not there, um, without really being able to define where they are.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

37:42

So, no, I would say the engagements, the engagement sector and the kind of the participation sector, the learning sector, is much more up on this and I'm hopeful that will mean, yeah, future generations coming through will be more up on this and more aware of this yeah, well, I mean, all the wonderful work that you guys are doing will probably benefit, or definitely benefit, my children and other children of the people who are listening to this podcast, because it's going to be 10 years before they're, you know, in the working world, or longer, depending on how old they are, um or less time. So you know the the roads that you guys are pushing ahead and and the highlights that you're highlighting are all you know it's. It must be an incredibly rewarding job, because you're paving the way for others, frustrating because, like, how do you measure success and metric?

Stephen BaileyGuest

38:23

it's like, I do agree, that kind of drip feed long term, yes, things are going to happen, but sometimes it feels very frustrating in the moment. Um, but no, it is true, and I think, looking back, like where and I will be using the word disabled, like as it covers everything, but where that is compared to 10 years ago, 20 years ago, um is there have been huge um strides made by great artists, some of whom I've been lucky enough to kind of work under and work with, which have allowed me to be here and kind of having this. So, yeah, I am hopeful there will continue to be shifts in that regard, um, and I'm also hopeful they kind of they go beyond, um, yes, beyond the industry and into kind of like uh, society. I think it's tricky when sometimes I think it feels like which I really hope, though I feel kind of like active kind of contest in media and in politics about legitimacy of neurodivergency seems to be floating around at the moment and that's very stressful and I'm all for art being a force of political change. But I also feel we can be outclassed sometimes by a big pr firm as a small theater company.

39:24

Um, so you have to kind of work out of picking your battles and picking your achievements when and where you can do it. Um, and trusting, yeah, as you kind of said, of wider influence and slow progress, um, in that sense. But this is language you wouldn't have used, um, a few years ago. I wouldn't be talking this way a few years ago. It wasn't really a thing that was picking the radar, kind of growing up and like the fact I was academically gifted meant therefore, not, we've got a much more holistic and full experience understanding now. So, yeah, kind of like gently hopeful, you're podcasting about it, people are actively thinking about it and raising their kids. Fingers crossed.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

40:02

Yeah, I agree, fingers crossed. Well, it's been lovely having you today, stephen. Thank you so much for your time and your knowledge. Thank you, thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. Don't forget to join the Send Parenting community, if you haven't done so already, by clicking the link in the show notes or, if you prefer, direct message me on 0785-691-5105. And I can personally add you, wishing you and your family a great week ahead. You, you, you.