EP 91: Legal Help for SEND Parents with Alex Stafford of charity IPSEA

Please excuse any errors in this auto-generated transcript

Speaker Names

Dr Olivia KesselHost

00:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In today's episode, we are going to be joined by Alex Stafford, a solicitor who's part of the IPSEA legal team.

00:54

Ipsea stands for Independent Provider of Special Education Advice and it says what's on the tin. That's what they do. They're the leading charity in the field of SEND law in England. Their focus is to help parents navigate the SEND system and to secure the education your child is legally entitled to and what has been written into law. Knowledge is power and they help empower parents to navigate that law and use it for their child's SEND education. There are 1.6 million pupils in England with SEND needs, which has actually increased by 100,000 since last year, and over 550,000 of those with an EHCP. Ipsy can help you with the right tools to navigate your child's rights. So in today's podcast there is a wealth of information that we're going to explore with Alex and how the information they have available on their website and their helplines can be utilized free of charge for you to help you on your journey with your child navigating education. So welcome, alex. It is such a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast.

02:03

I am super excited today to talk about Ipsy and all the amazing work the charity does to help empower parents and actually help them to understand with their send children what their legal rights are in education, and I know I wish that I had known about this resource when I was struggling and just feeling so alone and it was. You know, it was as clear as mud. What you know? What? What rights did my daughter have? What? What was the school required to provide? I had no idea. So you know I'm really looking forward to today's discussion. But before we start on Ipsy, I wanted to talk a little bit about your journey, because you're a SEND parent as well. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up at Ipsy?

Alex StaffordGuest

02:45

Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having me here, olivia. I'm delighted to be here on behalf of Ipsy. But, as you say, I actually came to Ipsy in the same way any other parent did, which was I'd never heard of them before, and I had a small child who had autism and he was at preschool and I was, you know, just knew that he was going to need a lot of support when he started in school.

03:13

So I started the processes and this was under the old law. So it was going back a little bit now, about 17 years no, 14 years and it was so, so difficult. And I am a solicitor although this wasn't my area of expertise at all and I hadn't practiced for a number of years being at home with children, and I was dealing with professionals through the process and I was thinking, either they don't know what, what the law is, or they do, and that's not right. But you second guess yourself, don't you? This isn't my area. So I was sort of second guessing myself and I asked around and somebody said, oh, try, ipsy, they've got some great resources on their website, which I used.

04:01

Um, so that was it, and I had loads of information and I did. I was confident. Then you know, I know I am right, I know what I'm talking about, so we'll carry on with that. And then I'm here again, still actually, it must be just over 12 years ago and then I realized you could volunteer for IPSE, which is what I started doing, and then join the legal team. So that's how I made it here and the rest is history, so to speak.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

04:30

But you know, it's so true and I think it's a common story with a lot of parents. You know, even you know parents who are solicitors, I who is a doctor, everybody. You know it's a very level playing field. When you have a child and you start to look at education and you look to the people who are in education for the answers and they might not have the right answers or the answers they're giving you. Don't marry up in your head.

Alex StaffordGuest

04:56

Absolutely. That is exactly right that you are thinking well, that doesn't sound right, but this isn't my. You know, these are the professionals, they, they know what they're doing.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

05:07

Um, but it's, you know, not always the case that it's almost like a white coat syndrome that you have in the hospital too, you know where.

05:15

You just believe them because, because they are, you know and it was a journey for me as well to be like, well, actually, maybe they are wrong, and you know doctors can be wrong too I I well to be like, well, actually, maybe they are wrong, and you know doctors can be wrong too, I, I I love it when my patients, you know, would challenge me and, you know, come up with ideas and you know, um, stuff like that. But it's, you know, it's a common experience, I think, by parents, and some of them view it as being gaslit, but I think there's so much more complexity in terms of and that's what I'm really excited about talking today about is that it can be perceived as gaslighting, it can be perceived as them versus us, but there's also a general lack, I think, of understanding and knowledge, both in education and by parents, which is where Ipsy really comes into helping. So tell us a little bit about Ipsy for those that don't know.

Alex StaffordGuest

06:01

Yeah, so Ipsy is an acronym, so it means Independent Provider of Special Education Advice. So that is exactly what we do. We celebrated our 40th anniversary last year, so the charity has been going for a long time now and we're kind of doing what we've always done, which is providing advice to parents and carers of children and young people with special educational needs. We have helplines, we have an information service where you can email in a query and we have a website that has lots of information about what the law is. You know useful template letters, guidance to you know common problems that occur for parents, so there's lots of stuff that you can access and it's really like you said about trying to make sure that parents know this is what's going on.

06:54

This is the difficulty we've got. How do we navigate that? What are the rules? Because the framework is really helpful in terms of special educational needs and special educational provision. You know it is set up to try to make sure that every child or young person who has SEN has that identified and then the provision that they reasonably require for it is delivered one way or another.

07:18

So it's really that simple at its heart and it's been like that since 1996. It's been like that for a long time. There's more people now who can access it under the Children and Families Act. So that's what we do and so we help people. I think about four and a half thousand people for the last year where we've got the data used our advice services and we also have a tribunal support service, which there's always more demand for that service than we have volunteers available, because lots of our services are partly, or sometimes largely, volunteer run. So we train them up but they're volunteers as well and that tribunal support service will help parents who've got an appeal to the Senate tribunal, you know, to help navigate that process.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

08:10

You know that's interesting, I wonder. I saw the data on your website about. You know 98% of parents who go to a tribunal they find in favor of the family. But one of the things I wondered is what's if you know the percentage of parents that have to go to tribunal? Like I had to go to tribunal and it wasn't until the night before that they conceded.

Alex StaffordGuest

08:31

You know I don't know what the data for that is. The tribunal gets some data. So we know that the vast majority of appeals that go all the way to a hearing are determined in favor of the appellant, which is the parent or the young person, um. But they don't gather data on you know what percent I think the rate of appeals is. Fairly. They do have that data and I think it's fairly steady. It's not a huge percentage um, that, that um, but it is increasing a little bit, that um. So they do have that data. But I know that obviously that doesn't record things like parents who've gone to mediation. It doesn't record, you know, parents whose appeals. We don't know the reasons or what happens if appeals are conceded, sometimes partway through, etc. But I think it's obviously true that for the majority of people who challenge a decision, certainly the ones that go all the way to a hearing are determined in favor of the appellant.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

09:34

No, and it's just interesting because it was an interesting process for me as well in that it seemed like a delaying tactic in, you know, in a way, because it was a pretty cut and clear case. So you know, that support I think would have been beneficial to me too to understand and most of the people that I know who've gone through the process nobody has everyone's had to go.

09:58

I don't know anyone that hasn't gone to a tribunal, but that's just in my end of a specialist independent school and people that come on the podcast. That's it.

Alex StaffordGuest

10:05

And our data. People only come to it to see if there's something going wrong. Yeah, exactly.

10:11

Things that go right, but it's not just in the SEND tribunal. If you look at the local government and social care ombudsman, they have their biggest area of complaints that they deal with and they only deal with complaints when they've gone through the whole local authority complaints process. The biggest area is this the SEN framework and the majority nine out of 10 of those complaints they uphold. So it's not just about appeals Anywhere where the decision making is being challenged and obviously not everyone will challenge it but where that's happening. That I mean that seems to be saying this decision's being made not in compliance with the law, because if they were lawful they wouldn't be successful.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

10:54

Because you just said, the framework is simple and it's clear, so where does the confusion happen?

Alex StaffordGuest

11:00

Well, I think there's probably systemic issues there. I think you know those are slightly bigger than I can kind of try and think about or resolve, I suppose. But yeah, from IPSI's experience and I mean we've got you know, we keep putting things out about this we just see a lot of bodies who have duties under the Children and Families Act are not following those duties, whether it's because they don't have the right staffing in place or the right resources they they don't have. I mean, sometimes they have high staff turnover, so perhaps people aren't aware of what the law is. Pressures internally about money or finance, so they they're not processing things in the right way or in the right time. Things in the right way or in the right time. But you know that's. This is not new.

11:48

As I said, obviously, in 2014, the range of children and young people who could have the benefit of these rights was extended and obviously health and social care became quite an integral part of like a holistic approach to looking at it, which was new.

12:10

But all of this stuff about identifying children with needs, assessing them, making sure the right provisions in place if they meet a certain threshold there's going to need to be a legally enforceable document used to be called a statement. It's now called an EHC plan. That has to be specified and quantified. That's been the law since well, like I said a lot of it since 1996. And even earlier, some of the stuff we've got from our records about things that we used to give evidence about and things it's all saying the same thing. The framework you know is working but people aren't doing what they should be doing and accountability depends on parents and carers pushing so challenging decision making. And obviously you know not all parents and carers pushing so challenging decision-making and obviously you know not all parents and carers are able to do that and it's not very often the thing they've got enough on their plates without.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

12:56

Yeah, no, I mean, it's a slightly flawed system that the parent has to be the one that holds the large organizations to account and fight.

Alex StaffordGuest

13:06

You know, from a time perspective, from a finance perspective, from a lack of knowledge perspective, you know we're ill-equipped, but yet there are lots of warrior moms and dads out there that are taking that challenge because they want to get, they're desperate to get their children the right support that they need in education because it's so important for their absolutely and and for those parents who do, you know, do that and you know, especially if you do a complaint, for example to um the ombudsman, because they can make recommendations about changes to processes, and so that's that won't just help your child, that's helping other children as well, because the the flaw in the process that you've experienced is being corrected, not just for your child but for everybody.

13:55

So that's worthwhile, but it's, you know, whether you've got the emotional energy sometimes to keep persisting with certain things. So there are mechanisms that do pick that up and we do policy work as well on a local and national level, and sometimes that is what we're doing. Parents will flag to us, oh, my area's got a policy that doesn't look quite right, and we might write to a local authority and say, yeah, that doesn't look quite right, and they'll, you know, pick it up and we do put you know our work on the website so parents can see, you know, where we've managed to affect a change in that way, because that helps loads of children then.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

14:28

And that's brilliant, and I know a lot of moms that I talked to like that. We all have a passion. I mean, that's why I started the podcast, because I have a passion to help other people going through this, and it is mainly moms and not to exclude the dads, but it is, uh, the, you know, majority of it lays on mother's shoulders. Is that? You know, we want to.

Alex StaffordGuest

14:44

We want to help the next mom, you know, give them a hand up Absolutely, and that's what made me want to volunteer in the first instance. Now I work there but I just thought, oh, do you know what? I navigated this and I and I I've got experience of navigating the legal framework, so why not? You know, I need to know this anyway, so why not? You know, try and do it. And that's what started me off on my volunteer journey thinking do you know what it's quite nice at the end of a day, especially if you're a volunteer, when you just think you know what. I know three people today whose days are better now because I gave them a tip and it's there. It's not like it's a secret or anything. I've just pointed them in the right direction and hopefully that will help them.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

15:27

And it's like gold dust I mean it really is. It's like gold dust to get that information and to get the right information. Because I know for myself, you join WhatsApp groups with different people at different levels and different levels of anger or where they are in the journey, and there can be a lot of chatter and often I'm neurodiverse it's too much and it's overwhelming and it can be conflicting. You know someone says this, someone says that, and so you know being able to go to a source which is actually working within the framework of the law and is actually empowering you with just the facts. You know there's there's no emotion, there's no. You know there's no gray area, it's law, it's the facts. And you know it would be great and I know your website is really good for my listeners to also go and have a look at. But to illustrate maybe some of the cases of you know, parents that you've helped with some stories, case studies.

16:17

it would be great if you could share some, yeah no, absolutely.

Alex StaffordGuest

16:20

I mean we've got some examples on the website which I'll kind of refer to, just because obviously those parents are happy. They've been happy for us to share their stories. But I mean, I can start with my own. As I said, that was I was in the process of having needs assessed because I knew my child was likely. I didn't know for sure, but I thought you know what he's going to probably need more help than school can do, and that's going to need a statement, as it was. It's called an EHC plan now. And they agreed and so they were writing it up and what was going in it. I was like that, just it's, I'm used to contract. You know I've worked in commercial and corporate, so I was like this is not right, this is definitely too vague, um, and so I, um, is that okay? So, um, I queried that in meetings and I was being told no, no, no, obviously, you know, because you know this, you trust the school will do it and and that will all come kind of that will all come out in the wash.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

17:21

And I remember thinking I'm sure that's not right and you, just, just you, start to doubt yourself, don't you? This is the gaslighting. And you're like am I like? Am I, am I overreacting?

Alex StaffordGuest

17:29

Am I being neurotic, you know like yeah, as a solicitor, I was like it's a legally enforceable document, so I'm pretty sure it's got to be specific. So I went away and checked and that's that's it. I just needed that reassurance. This isn't my area and it's like, yeah, really clear. There's a piece of case law, the law says it, it is the case, it's got to be clear. So I could go back and say with confidence yeah, but the law says it has to be clear. So I want that wording for this reason, and I'd also then find out in advance and then what do I do if they won't do it? So let's hope they'll do it, because I'm sure they will. When I point out that's what it's supposed to happen and I was lucky they did. They changed it, fab, but I felt confident saying it, like I'm not talking nonsense. That was my, that was ipsy helping me because I used their online resources to kind of double check what I needed to know.

18:24

Um, but we've got examples of all different things. So we've got an example here of somebody who had an EHC plan. Yeah, an education, health and care plan. So it's a legally enforceable document. And most children and young people with SEN special educational needs don't have one of these. They will have their needs met in their setting, whether it's school or college, through what's called SEN support. So the setting will have an obligation to put in place certain provisions to meet their needs.

18:56

But for some children and young people that's not going to be enough. They're going to need more than what a school or college can do, and some children and young people don't have their education or training in a school or college can do. And some children, young people don't have their education or training in a school or college and they're going to need a plan for that as well. If they, if their special educational needs mean they have to have, uh, you know, a provision that's dealt, you know, not in a setting. For example, lots of post-16 young people might go to internships or even apprenticeships.

19:23

They're not in a setting, but anyway. So they will have this education, health and care plan. It sets out their educational needs and the provision to meet it, and that has to be done. And then, if they've got health care needs or social care needs, that plan will also say what those are as well. They're done by health and social care, but it's just so that the whole thing is a clear picture of that person across education, health and social care, so everyone can see what the bigger picture is. But the education bit is like what a statement used to be. It's legally enforceable provision that has to be delivered for that child or young person.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

20:07

And from like a theoretical standpoint, it just makes so much sense to combine that together, you know, to get that full, holistic picture of what the child needs.

Alex StaffordGuest

20:15

Yeah, absolutely, because you know that's it. They've got these needs. That quite often will encompass all of those areas. There needs to be collaboration. That's the Children and Families Act and the Send Code of Practice that sits under it are all about that kind of collaborative working across those three areas. Obviously, education and social care is a local authority. Health will be the NHS, so it's just so sensible to have all of that information there. Excellent, so you were going to give us another story? Yeah, so in Diane and Adam's case, they've come for advice because they were at that point where this young person had a plan and they were going to move to a different phase of their education, so they were going to have to change where they went. There was a discussion. Every year the plan gets reviewed it's called an annual review and one of the things you're definitely going to be talking about at that kind of phase transfer is well, where are they going to go next?

21:17

The parents had asked for a particular place, thought it was going to be that place, and then when the final amended plan came back, it didn't be that place. And then when the final amended plan came back, it didn't say that place. And so they were like, well, what do we do here? And they called us, they booked an appointment with one of our helplines. The volunteer on that helpline then took them through, like let's talk about what's in the document. Obviously, we can't see it it's on the phone, but they were talking them through it and then told them look, this is what you can do now.

21:44

If this isn't clear, if that's not the right setting being named, these are the reasons in law that a local authority can reject what you've asked for. If you don't think that's what's happened, you now have this ability to challenge them. You can try to mediate and if you don't want to do that or it doesn't work, you could appeal. And then that helped them and they had some further phone calls along the process. They decided to proceed with an appeal, which they did, and they also decided that they needed to look at some of the kind of setting in a plan. But now you can also get recommendations about health and social care. So if a parent has issues with those they could seek them. Even though they're not binding, it's a bit like an ombudsman recommendation. It's a really strong indicator. I mean the tribunal will have looked at evidence to make those recommendations.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

22:42

There's a fair expectation that they will be followed. I didn't know that that wasn't legal, actually that part of it, so that's super interesting.

Alex StaffordGuest

22:49

Yeah, yeah. So the tribunal's recommendations about health and social care are what called non-binding recommendations, but once they've been made, the social care team or the health service have to respond within a set time frame to say whether or not they're going to proceed with the recommendations and, if not, why not. And there might be an opportunity there if they're not going to follow the recommendations, that could form the basis for potentially a statutory complaint if it was social care or a complaint through the health service, possibly even a legal action, although parents would need to take advice about that, because it might be that you know that's not reasonable for them to not follow it, especially where there's no evidence to contradict the finding of the tribunal.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

23:35

Because it's based on reports and professionals who've made those recommendations. Yeah, absolutely. So, in this case they through the support with IPSE. They went to appeal. Yeah.

Alex StaffordGuest

23:47

Yeah, and they managed to secure some of the changes that they were looking for. You know the setting. They managed to get some recommendations they were looking for At the time. It was what was called a trial. It was what preceded them being able to make these recommendations. They had a trial of doing it and then decided it worked so well they were going to carry it on. So they looked at those as well and then the parent kind of fed back to us.

24:12

We don't always get, obviously, if we've helped them with an appeal on our tribunal support service, we might know what the outcome is, but we don't always know what happened next. You know that bit of the story. We don't hear but parents do sometimes feedback and this person was saying you know, four years on, you know he's still in education, he's really happy, he's made more progress than they could have anticipated. So you know he has the right social care package, he has the right. So it's helped all of them obviously him, I mean for the family. It's just wonderful that he's happy he's got this kind of help in place. He's more independent. These are the things you want he's achieving and growing.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:50

And yeah, developing that's what we all want for our kids, isn't?

Alex StaffordGuest

24:53

it and exactly what the Children and Families Act and the SEND Code of Practice talk about. I mean, the SEND Code of Practice talks repeatedly about having high aspirations, about getting young people ready for as ready as they can be for adulthood, and that was clearly what fighting to get it right at that stage was really worthwhile, because, although those things that flowed from it are not what was written in the plan, that's what's happened, with the right provision being in place.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

25:26

So you know it's life-changing for children, do you?

25:29

know, what I mean, and for parents too, it's it's really life changing because, um, they, they can then reach their potential and and be, you know, contribute to society. And you know I I was listening to another podcast today where you know it was talking about neurodivergence and it was saying you know, we need people who think outside of the box for our civilization to continue. So actually nurturing and putting these things in place to ensure that these people can, you know, our children can be part of that, thinking out of the box, creative, you know, addition to society and not get squashed by a system that doesn't always work for them.

Alex StaffordGuest

26:04

Yeah, absolutely, it can make so much difference and every step of the way. You know that great. You know getting it right from the beginning is so helpful. But even if it hasn't been right from the beginning, correcting it and giving them that opportunity, you know it. Yeah, and it's lovely when we hear that kind of feedback because, like I said, you know, sometimes we don't always get that well. What happened next? I hope it worked well. You know everything looked like it was. You know fair, you know to look, you know good going forward, but we just don't always know.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

26:40

So it's great when we do get feedback. Yeah, and I'm sure you know that family didn't even realize that they're fighting for a school. But actually in hindsight, you know, changing all the other parts of the document and making sure that the right provision was in place was just as important if not more so, maybe than that school, because of and being able to meet those needs at that school. Yeah, yeah.

Alex StaffordGuest

26:58

And getting it all right at the same time. You know why do it in little sections like oh, we'll get the education bit right, and then we'll deal with the social care bit, and then we'll deal with the health bit. We'll just get it all right and then we can all move forward from that point, Absolutely.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

27:12

And you know a lot of kids are going back to school now and there's a whole bunch of like you know, it's an anxiety ridden time, I think, for everybody, and going back to school is so difficult. You know there are kids that you know they don't have spaces for and there's a lot to unpick in this topic and I know Ipsy also helps with back to school.

Alex StaffordGuest

27:33

Yes, absolutely. And this is the time of year. It sometimes does get a little quieter over the summer, you know, because parents aren't dealing with anything, because they've got their kids helping me for hours a day.

27:45

They're not in there or they're waiting for things you know to happen. But at this time of year we definitely do see an uptick in, obviously, sort of a number of areas, but one of the key ones is at this time of year transport questions arise. So you know that's because sometimes children will have moved to a different setting, so there may or may not need to be a transport arrangement in place for them. But also it's quite often the time of year that local authorities might change their contracts so they might have a new provider or, just because of the nature of it, there might be a new, like a new driver or a new assistant on a bus or whatever. And all these changes just get notified very often just before the return to school or sometimes once that return to school is happening. So parents have concerns around that, um, and so we we do have advice on our website about what rights we have to transport.

28:41

Uh, what, what are the rules? What? How can those changes be made? Um, because you're the right to have a transport arrangement very much depends on the age of the child. So there are different rules for preschool and for compulsory school age, then for sixth form age and then for above sixth form age. So different obligations the obligations for the younger than compulsory school age and the sixth form and adult age groups are much more discretionary on the part of the local authority, so they're slightly different.

29:17

You know, you might have to have a look at what local policies are, what they say, and then all the different factors in your situation that might mean that they need to think about making an arrangement or not.

29:29

But for compulsory school age, there are some really defined rules about when a local authority has to make an arrangement, and so they have categories of eligibility which can be to do with, like how far away the school is from your house. There's a category for if you live on an unsafe route. There's a category for if you're from a family that has a lower income or you're getting certain benefits, and then there's a category which is the one we advise about primarily, which is if it's unreasonable for your child to be able to walk to school because of SEN or mobility reasons. It's not about having an EHC plan, but it's related to this. Is it not reasonable for your child to be able to walk to school even if the school's down the road, because of a special educational need or a mobility problem, and if your child falls into any one of those categories, the local authority has to make a free, suitable home to school travel arrangement for them.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

30:26

I didn't realize that. I thought you could only get that through an EHCP. So you can actually get it outside of an EHCP.

Alex StaffordGuest

30:30

Thought you could only get that through an EHCP, so you can actually get it outside of an EHCP. Yeah, so some children will have an EHCP but not qualify for an arrangement, and some children won't have an EHCP plan but will qualify because of the nature of their SEN and mobility needs. So it's about that. So that's a common misconception.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

30:46

I find with myself and a lot of other mothers that I know as well, or families that it came down to okay, well, we'll, we'll, we'll name the school that you want and we'll agree to all the provisions in the EHCP, um, but we're not going to give you transport. Now, think about it. And if, if, if you think, and then we can go to tribunal. And I remember when that decision was faced me, I was on holiday in Cornwall and I was like, oh my God. Well, I really wanted to go to school. You know, I could lose that if we go to tribunal was what I was thinking Like, and I felt like I was a high roller gambler in Las Vegas. But my daughter was young, she couldn't take the bus. She was getting extreme anxiety. I was having to drive four hours a day because she didn't want to get. There was like a secondary school bus that she could take. It's you know. So, four hours of driving a day, I couldn't, it wasn't a solution.

Alex StaffordGuest

31:36

So I rolled the dice and I mean that was the worst day of my life because I was like maybe I shouldn't have done that, you know, and some parents are like haven't been willing to roll that dice and then have regretted it afterwards and it's a sticking point it's really difficult, and that is one thing that I would always say to parents take some advice about, because if you have, um uh, an education, health and care plan for if, for example, the, the local authority says we will name the setting you want, but we're going to put a condition in and say you have to make the transport arrangement, they can't do that, but only if they could legally displace your choice under the Children and Families Act. So, depending on the kind of setting you've asked for and where your child is going to school, and so it's definitely one of those areas where it's worth checking our website.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

32:26

Have a look. As I said, I wish I knew you know my heart rate could have been about 25 beats lower.

Alex StaffordGuest

32:33

I know, but it's really tricky and sometimes I mean that's one of those where I'd say take advice, because there's quite a number of variables. But yeah, those very often. We do see situations where a condition is being put into the EHC plan about transport that possibly shouldn't be there, that in fact they have to name the school that's been asked for without any condition and then that will become the nearest suitable school if your child's eligible for an arrangement. So definitely double check.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

33:03

And what was interesting to me is like we had someone locally who was also going to school, who already had an EHCP and a transport, and I was like, well, why can't they just go together? It's not going to cost the local authority anymore. And now we have another younger girl who's also here and we've signed a legal letter now to the local authority saying she can share the taxi.

Alex StaffordGuest

33:19

Yeah, and even if you find out, actually my child isn't eligible for a transport arrangement, so they're not entitled legally to a free home-to-school transport arrangement. Very often the local authority has discretion and you can approach them about that kind of thing. Is there something we can do? I I've known of parents who their child doesn't have an ehc plan and they want a school a bit further away, so they don't have an entitlement to a transport arrangement to that further away one. But they've said you know what, there's a bus that runs, I'm happy to contribute to the cost of it. Can my child jump on if there's a space? Absolutely, it's all got sorted out. So, um, don't ask, don't get. Sometimes, even if you're not legally entitled that, ask, but always check your entitlement.

34:02

Transport is one of those areas where, um, there are a lot of things that, um, it can feel quite confusing. Sometimes local policies are a little bit confusing themselves because they've tried to explain the law in a more parent-friendly way and then slightly misstate the rules and you're like no, I can see what you tried to do there, but you've actually misstated it by not copying word for word what the law says, which would have been easier. So do check. It's one of those where it's worth checking.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

34:30

The other thing I think that parents struggle with is a lot of parents don't have a school. They don't have a school and a lot of kids are. I mean the number of kids being excluded from school, not just maybe parents deciding that they don't want to send their kid back, but there's also a huge proportion. I think your website said something like it's up 40% or 45% in terms of school exclusions, something like 9,800. I might you know, numbers might be slightly off, but you know what do parents do if they, if they don't know where you know and I, I as well, before I was introduced to school like where do you go? Or you're given a list and nobody wants your child.

Alex StaffordGuest

35:06

That's really hard, yeah, and I mean there's sort of two separate issues there. Attendance, yeah, at a place having a school place, attendance is a separate issue altogether. We could perhaps come on to that later.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

35:18

Yeah, let's do attendance after the finding a school place, because that's another interesting topic as well.

Alex StaffordGuest

35:23

Yeah, so your child not even having a school place. And then there's the issue of these high rates of exclusion, which is actually in the news today, and it is. I mean it's quite depressing. What we tend to have to do when these new statistics come out this is really quite depressing is we go through our training, information and our various bits and very often all we're really having to do is update the year because actually our statement about if your child has SEN or has an EHC plan they are X many times more likely to be excluded or suspended from school just stays the same. It's not changing year on year. In fact, obviously we can see that this year the rates of exclusion are going up and the rates of suspension. Suspension is just a part of fixed term exclusion as opposed to a permanent exclusion.

36:11

But yeah so that's a. There's advice about exclusion on our websites. Although, whatever the reason is, at this time of year or any time of year, if your child doesn't have a place at school, if they're of compulsory school age, the local authority has an absolute legal obligation to secure suitable full-time alternative education for any period that they're not able to attend school. And obviously they also have some separate obligations about finding school for your child. There are admissions processes.

36:44

If they've got an EHC plan, then the provision in that plan needs to be secured. Usually there'll be a setting named. If it's named, the school has to admit they can't say well, you can't come. So parents can take advice if that's what's happening. But sometimes it just names a type of school and that's really complicated because obviously the expectation is the local authority will place them in a school of that type because they've got to secure the provision in the plan. If they're not doing that, there are two obligations at play there the duty to secure all the provision in that EHC plan and if they can't go to school at the moment, they've also got a separate duty, if they're of school age, to secure this alternative education for them.

37:29

How do they?

Dr Olivia KesselHost

37:29

do that or do they do that?

Alex StaffordGuest

37:30

Well, it's up to them. Local authorities can make. It has to be suitable, it has to be full-time equivalent and it has to be appropriate to the child's ageability, aptitude and special educational needs. So they'll have different arrangements depending on the reason. Obviously, for children who perhaps have got medical issues, there are things like hospital schools and tuition services that they might have. In play. They might have alternative provision available that could be a school type setting. It could be something like a pupil referral unit. But again, parents often come because there's something being offered but they're not sure it's appropriate and it's not a long-term solution in any event. So it's just good to know that you shouldn't be just left with your child at home getting nothing. That should not. If they're of compulsory school age, that should not be happening, and so it's really unacceptable that it's at the levels it's at.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

38:32

I've known parents who have been given like a list of 20 schools by the local authority and none of them would take their child. You know what I mean.

Alex StaffordGuest

38:40

I mean if they don't have an EHC plan, then a mainstream school can't refuse to take your child because they feel they've got special educational needs they can't meet. So if you find that is happening then it's worth alerting the governing body of that school and the local authority, because obviously that shouldn't be happening as potentially discriminatory, certainly against the admissions rules for a child without an EHC plan. If they've got an EHC plan, the local authority's obligation is to name an appropriate setting or a type of setting and then secure the provision in the plan. But, as I said, depending on the kind of school you've asked for or what the school you've asked for is, there are certain rules about the local authority naming it and the default position for maintained schools, academies, non-maintained special schools and independent schools that are registered under section 41 of the Children and Families Act. And, for your listeners, all this information is on IPSE's website because that's a lot of information there. The default position is the school you ask for has to be named and there are only three legal conditions that mean it can be displaced.

39:51

So very often the problem is that the local authority is not doing what it should be doing. Either it's not name it, I mean it's lawful to just name a type. But if a parent's in that predicament and doesn't have a place, they need to be taking advice, perhaps challenging that final plan to get somewhere specific named. And in the meantime the local authority still has to secure the provision in your plan. So if it says they're going to get, you know, group sessions, one-to-one with a teacher, that's what should be being sorted out and you know there's no exception in the well, we just can't find somewhere to put them. That's not a valid excuse. That's not. There's no um defense.

40:30

We've had cases that have gone to court not the tribunal through what's called a judicial review, where this duty to secure the provision in an EHC plan has been the problem. So the parent has brought a litigation and said this didn't happen. The local authorities said well, we tried this, we're short of this. We did that. And the courts make clear it's not a best endeavours duty, it is must. You must secure the provision. So it might be difficult, but that's your job and there is a. You know you've got to do it straight away. You know you can't let this drag on for weeks and weeks without doing it. So any parent who's in that predicament without a school place, in particular, if you've got an EHC plan, look, the rules are there to help you. That situation should not be enduring and, in any event, if they are of compulsory school age, in the meantime, while that situation is rectified and it should be rectified promptly your child should still be getting a suitable full-time alternative education.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

41:36

That's incredibly empowering. I mean not something I would have known, and I think a lot of parents don't know, because you get the oh, we don't have the funding, oh, there isn't a place, so there's waiting lists, so this, that and the other, and you're kind of like, well, okay, okay, okay, you know. And you're kind of like, well, okay, okay, okay, you know.

Alex StaffordGuest

41:52

So that's a great piece of advice and it's worth making a complaint about if you, you know, are taking advice, because I mean, the ombudsman itself has said that. You know this is one area of complaint they see frequently. They frequently make recommendations for local authorities to compensate a child for the missed education they have. They have a mechanism for calculating what they've missed and how much that costs.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

42:17

How do you put? A cost on, like a child's development. Well, I know, and that's it.

Alex StaffordGuest

42:23

They can't fix everything, so it's not ideal, but it's just to know that there are mechanisms to challenge that.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

42:30

Well, and it's also then you have the power or the legal backing to kind of hold their hand to the flame and not to be pushed away. So that's some great advice. Now let's hit and I know there's so much to talk about, but attendance on social media If your child just has a sore throat, send them to school and this huge pressure for attendance and my daughter is in a good specialist independent school. We've missed a lot of school. She'd actually been quite sick at different points and whatever, but sometimes she just needs a day off. And when she's reached that point I give her a day off.

43:07

I had the deputy head calling me up about it and then that puts pressure on you as a parent. And then you then that transfer. I unfortunately transferred that right to my child and you know forcing her to go to school and then I was like no, this is so wrong. This goes against my relationship with her, it goes against her being feeling safe. And we worked it out. I pushed back on the school. I said we're not going until we get to the bottom of this problem. But I know a lot of parents struggle with attendance and the school policies towards it.

Alex StaffordGuest

43:37

Yeah, no, and actually it's such a good point to raise, particularly because the guidance, which does apply to independent schools as well as state schools, was revised over the summer, and one of the things to remember is it's what's called statutory guidance, so schools are meant to follow it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

43:57

They can't interpret. It is what you're saying.

Alex StaffordGuest

44:00

No, that's right, and obviously there's a huge. There is this emphasis on getting kids back to school attendance and there is a lot of information about sanctions for parents for non-attendance, which is really frightening.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

44:13

In one of my worst moments, when my daughter didn't want to go to school, I'm like do you realize mommy could go to jail for this? And I'm like what have I just said? Like I should never have said that and I shouldn't have you know but? And I said no, I know but it's a genuine fear.

Alex StaffordGuest

44:24

you know, and obviously most of the people who've ever gone to jail it's the mums, so it's a very unlikely thing to happen, but it's not a ridiculous fear. Yes, but the key thing to take away and we've been making this clear to our volunteers when we've just been updating them on it and it's on our website as well for parents is that one of the key things that schools should be doing where they have a child with an attendance problem is getting to the cru. One of the key things that schools should be doing where they have a child with an attendance problem is getting to the crux of the problem.

44:59

Just as you were saying, before we start saying drag that child in consequences for that child, find the parent. Why are they not in school?

Dr Olivia KesselHost

45:10

Because, you know, and with my daughter's story, right when I unpicked it with her, it was a social thing at school and that was what the problem was, and they had promised to give some support after the holiday. I said, well then we're not going to go to school until after the holiday. And then they said, okay, we didn't realize, because she's masking so well at school, how much this is impacting her. We didn't get it. So then they put you know, Elsa, they put support in place. Things start changing. I picked her up from school. She's like mommy, it was such a good day and I said you know what, there's going to be good days and bad days, but we can't not go to school. We need to solve the problem. So you know, you need to talk to me. Mommy will talk to your teachers and you as well, and we'll find a solution. It might, which is dressing her, dragging her into the taxi, making her go to school and not understanding why she doesn't want to go. You need to get to the root cause.

Alex StaffordGuest

45:59

Absolutely, and for schools to be professionally curious about what is going on there, and obviously the people who come to us. Very often the problem is a not properly identified special educational need, a not properly identified provision to meet that need. So the child it may not even be that anyone thinks it is, you know, a social, emotional and mental health difficulty could be a special educational need and the provision to meet it might well be something that is beyond what the school can do, but that's okay, because they've got processes. They can ask for more help. Let's do that. So always schools should be thinking what, not just what is our obligation under this guidance, but what are our obligations under the Children and Families Act?

Dr Olivia KesselHost

46:47

So how did it change over the summer?

Alex StaffordGuest

46:49

Is it better now?

46:50

It wasn't a fundamental stage. It was some changes to the regulations in terms of when a child starts to attend, so some of it was more technical. So they've got more codes now for non-attendance and they updated it to say that basically schools don't really have any discretion to allow term time holidays. So there used to be some discretion for schools to permit a term time holiday. Now people shouldn't be doing that and only in exceptional circumstances should absence be authorised. Obviously they can still authorise for things like, you know, going for an interview or going to a music exam or that kind of thing. So they're trying to limit the discretion of the schools to say, all right, yeah, you can have a three week off to go, you know, visit your dad who's overseas with the armed forces or whatever you know, I don't. So they're trying to limit that. So some of that was no different.

47:48

But the key thing is that in that guidance it does make clear school should always be following their legal under other rules like the Children and Families Act and the Equality Act. So we would always say is there an SEN here and is it being met? And if not, what can we do to make sure it's met? It might be asking for an EHC needs assessment. It might be better SEN support, it might be changing the EHC plan, but let's get to the bottom of that, because we're never going to solve the problem without solving that issue. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, I mean it makes common sense.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

48:26

Right, it's the same thing in school, with school behavior. If you're punishing kids' behavior who are acting out or having difficulty, or giving them consequences without understanding why it's happening, it's futile and it doesn't work and it's the same thing with attendance. It's the same kind of rationale.

Alex StaffordGuest

48:45

Absolutely, absolutely, and we need to do that because then we can put the right provision in place which might address the issue. And the other thing is to look at the Equality Act. So schools need to think about that really carefully. Obviously, you know, if a child has a medical condition, it may well be that they're disabled, but it could be the same if they have a special educational need, if they made for that pupil, or even thinking about things like the design of their reward schemes or their incentivization of these things, because you know, in the work environment, if you have a reward scheme for attendance, it's a HR minefield, because you have to make sure you're not discriminating against people whose attendance might be impacted by a disability, and exactly the same thing applies in school. So do think about that, you know. Think about your reward schemes in terms of those pupils that you have whose attendance might be being impacted by something.

49:49

Yeah, yeah, and obviously the guidance has always said and continues to say you, you know, if a child is medically unfit, they're not well, the the default position is not that they ask for medical verification. You know, usually a parent phoning up and saying my child is poorly, they're too sick for school. Well, for what? Whatever reason they're unwell, it could be they're mentally unwell, it could be they're physically unwell then obviously you know that is their evidence they need. There may be situations where they query that or they're not sure about that, but obviously if a child is really too unwell for school again, as I would say, to do with attendances for parents as well as working out, well, yeah, we'd like them to go to school more, but what if they're not fit for more? Um, don't forget that a child who's not able to attend school because of ill health, um, once a school thinks that's going to be the case for 15 days or more, so they may. They may not have been absent already for 15 days, but it might be quite obvious. You know they're in the middle of a mental health crisis.

50:52

They should be telling the local authority as well as thinking about what else they could do to help that child in terms of? Is there an SEN here? Do we need to think about, you know, seeing if they need medical help? I don't know. Whatever a school might have limited ability to do stuff with health, but they can certainly seek more educational support for that child or support somebody else to do that. But the local authority has to again provide this suitable alternative education for children who can't attend because of ill health. Now, it may not be full time if their health is such that they couldn't cope with that. It's not going to force a full time education on a child that can't do it for health reasons. But it's worth being aware that again, they shouldn't be left at compulsory school age with nothing. And if they have an EHC plan and they can't go to school, then again maybe that plan needs reviewing.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

51:46

Or the school's not the right setting and there's another school setting that would be the right school setting.

Alex StaffordGuest

51:52

This is one of those things where a local authority might need to think about. We need to have a good long look at this, because the situation appears to be falling apart. Is it that the plan is wrong? It may be, it may not be, but that's a question that needs looking at.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

52:06

And I know that a lot of parents are forced to go and get sick notes from GPs. Gps have even started charging some of them for and it's not necessary. You don't legally have to provide this. Is that correct? My assumption?

Alex StaffordGuest

52:18

Yeah well, the school doesn't need to ask for that kind of medical authorization. Obviously, if a child is not fit for school and you're saying to the local authority, we need alternative education, they may query whether they really are so poorly they can't go to school and there's no set information that they can rely on or not rely on. But that information would be helpful if you've got a doctor saying they really aren't well enough for school for these reasons. But no, you don't need a sick note. I mean, if what the school is saying is we don't believe you that your child is poorly, that's what they're saying. Because you telling them they're poorly should be enough.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

52:57

And poorly. I think they understand it more like oh you know, they've got a health condition or something like that, but you know, if, like, they're so anxious and they're, they're, they're so can't get to school, that's, that's, that's as, that's as valid as having chickenpox, absolutely.

Alex StaffordGuest

53:11

Yeah, and when I deliver training to schools, I you know I make clear that you know if they've got an EHC plan, then that needs looking at. You know, if they're in a mainstream school they don't have an EHC plan. Maybe they're getting SEN support, maybe they're not. Maybe until this point nobody even thought they had a special educational need. My question would be under the legal definition of what a special educational need is, does this child now not have a disability that's preventing or hindering them from accessing the kind of facilities their peers can access in a mainstream setting? They can't get through the door.

53:48

At that point the school might not be able to fix it. Like you said, they can't drag a child in. They can't or shouldn't be wanting a parent to drag a child in. They can support a parent asking for an EHC needs assessment because this child may well need provision that goes beyond what they can do from what they've got. You know, if this is an anxiety issue, there may be things they can put in place in school put in place in school but it could be that they need, you know, cognitive, behavioral therapy or or counseling to help them overcome whatever that is triggering that anxiety, which may not purely be school related, or it could be, but whatever it is, it's it's. It's definitely looking like it's going to meet the threshold to assess their needs, if they so. Schools can and should think about those things, and so parents can as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

54:39

Yeah, and it's getting to the root cause, and I think you know, and then it's solving that problem, which is it's just turning on its head. It's not just saying you need to be in school this amount of time and you need to make sure they come, which to me you know, doesn't? It doesn't? I mean, it's just a number. Do you know what I mean? You're not actually. You can force a kid and that's just going to create bigger problems and it's going to get bigger and bigger. So, getting to the root cause as early as possible and taking that pressure off the parents too, that it's their fault, which is also ironic it's their fault, even though they're not in charge of the school, that their kid doesn't want to go to school. That's ironic. This is it, yeah.

Alex StaffordGuest

55:15

Let's work on this and there's a limit to what you can do. You know, dragging a child out of car, or you know we hear some horrible stories. No, but you can't fix the problem at the school.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

55:22

That's what I said to my daughter's school. I said I'm not on the playground. I can hear what she has to say. I can't fix it from here. There's nothing I can do to fix it from here. You know I need your help.

Alex StaffordGuest

55:34

Yeah, and the point of the Children and Families Act and things like this guidance is the sooner you can address a problem like that. Once a child's been out of school for a long period of time, it becomes harder and harder to go back in. You know, like anything, if you've been out of your job for a long period of time, it's really hard to get back into it and you're missing more and you're not been with you know. So the sooner we get to the bottom of it, rather than letting these situations drift, the better, and that is what we always emphasize in that let's get to the bottom of it. There are ways of doing that through the mechanisms we work with, like the Children and Families Act.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

56:08

And for your child. It's so important Like you know, my daughter to know you're not alone. Your school supports you. You have people that you really love and respect in the school who are going to help you, and life is full of ups and downs and it's such a great life lesson that you can ask for the help, get the help and then it can get better. It's an amazing lesson. Well, I can't believe this, but we've almost been talking for an hour, alex.

Alex StaffordGuest

56:35

I could talk for hours.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

56:39

But you know, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you today and I did forewarn you because I like to ask all my podcast guests at the end of the episode for three tips that they would give parents that they can put in their back pocket to take away with them.

Alex StaffordGuest

56:54

Okay, yeah, and I did, and I will say that I decided I was going to do this from my perspective, so I wouldn't say that this isn't something that Ipsy wouldn't. You know. It's not necessarily Ipsy endorsed, but I don't think anyone would disagree with me. But I thought, you know what, as a parent of a child with SEN, what have I learned? Because, like I said, my son's in his late teens now, so it's different.

57:18

I have had some experience, but also from seeing it from my perspective as a ITSE legal team member, and my first top tip is be prepared. So don't assume that people in the room know more than you about the law. So, even if all you've done is a cursory look at this is what the conversation's about. Like it's a meeting about SEN support at school with the SEN co and the class teacher. Well, just have a quick look at our website or something like that, and just so you know what should be happening.

57:47

If they don't know or they say something wrong, it's not necessarily for a sinister reason. They might not know or they might have been given a policy that's not right, or you know it's. They don't know, so be prepared. The second one was make or ask for notes. If you're having a meeting, if you've had a phone conversation, you know, with someone from the local authority, make a note. My notes are sometimes just scribbled on a letter I've had from the local authority or whatever, with the day on. Just because there's a lot of information, you can forget even who you're talking to.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

58:21

You can even do it on your phone with like a voice memo, you can just press record.

Alex StaffordGuest

58:26

Well, if you're going to do that, say ask permission, yeah. So however you're recording it, make sure they know that you're making a note. No secret recording.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

58:40

Well, no, I think a contemporaneous note is probably slightly different, but certainly recording video or voice, yeah, check, you know, or make sure you, you know I want to do this, but certainly for making notes or asking for notes or minutes shouldn't be a problem. You know you need to digest it, so make sure they do it. And if if you can't do it for some reason or you're just, this is too much to do at once. You know, lots of people struggle with processing information, coming in and making notes at the same time as, say, I'm going to bring a friend, they're just going to be here to take my notes for me, because I'm not going to remember everything from this meeting. So try to make some notes, even if it's just the name of the person you dealt with.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

59:21

You know it's funny. I recommend people doing that when they go to a doctor's visit, when it's some serious health condition, because when you're in that moment you can't absorb it and having someone else there to help absorb it and take notes is so crucial someone else there to help absorb it and take notes is so crucial.

Alex StaffordGuest

59:35

Absolutely, it's the same thing. And then there might be things that you think I never asked. That I don't understand that, even if I go away and look it up or I have to phone them back and ask so take notes or make some sort of notes if you're going to have those kinds of meetings. And the other thing is and one of this came from my mom was try not to send emails or make phone calls or have face-to-face discussions when you are really angry or upset. Now, do as I say, not as I do. So I I can't say I've always been perfect with this, but because it's so personal when it's your child, you know it's really difficult to you, can't have no emotion.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

01:00:12

You know, there's a funny thing and a friend of mine just introduced me to this. She's like Olivia, you know. Sometimes you know she had a parent who'd really upset her and so she went on to chat GBT and she wrote her most angriest email. She got it all out of it and then she put please could you make this nice, considerate and kind, make it into a nice, considerate and kind message. So and kind message. So it took all her vitriol and it made it into a nice email which she sent to the mother. The mother wasn't expecting it responded nicely, it changed the whole dynamic and I was like wow, it's cathartic because you can put what you're really feeling and then it switches it to how you'd like to say it, so you get your point across without the vitriol and the anger.

Alex StaffordGuest

01:00:53

Without it. Yeah, it's so much easier said than done, and I am not saying we don't challenge nonsense. I always challenge nonsense. I'm not having that, so my best I think that might be wrong comes out. I think you might be mistaken there, because we don't want nonsense, but I got very angry One of the few times I got really angry about something. And but I got very angry One of the few times I got really angry about something and fortunately I phoned my mom and she listened and said what I would say is don't phone them tonight, don't phone them tonight, phone them tomorrow. And yeah, because I would have just, I would have just ranted, and the whole thing that I wanted was please, don't let this situation ever arise again. What are we going to do to make it not happen again? That's what I wanted, not a. You know, oh, my goodness, she's shouting in my face about. You know how disgusted she is with us and you know, and it was such good advice. So I do try to do that.

01:01:48

Emails, yeah, and my son has checked my email sometimes to make sure that they are polite. So, yeah, that's really important. If you can remember it. It's easier said than done. Sit on your hands for five minutes if you're face to face, ask if you can have a break, a comfort break. Um, just move away and think it's deeply personal and I can go away and have a phone call with someone about this after, about how disgusted I am, but I need to just go back in and say what I want.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

01:02:16

Yeah, nothing gets accomplished in anger for our children, for ourselves, for anyone. Nothing positive comes out of it.

Alex StaffordGuest

01:02:23

No, no, it just gets lost in there. It's very easy as a mom to be put down as hysterical, so I'm always mindful of that as well. Stroppy Mrs Stafford, yeah.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

01:02:39

I think those are three fantastic tips and it has been just enlightening this whole podcast and, you know, I think that all the parents listening now have a great resource, that they can go to find the facts out and then utilize it, which is what is needed, you know.

Alex StaffordGuest

01:02:53

So thank you so much. It's so designed. Thank you so much for having me here.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

01:02:57

It's been really, really lovely. Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. I hope you enjoyed all the insights and expertise that Alex from Ipsy brought today. Please, if you like the show, follow us and, even more importantly, rate us, because it makes us more visible to other listeners who might just need this kind of advice and support. I know I wish I had Wishing you and your family a wonderful week ahead Till next week. Thank you.