EP 89: Using AI to help neurodiverse children with Davey Jones from Open Genius

Please excuse any errors from this autogenerated transcript

Dr Olivia KesselHost

00:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In today's episode, I'm joined by Davy Jones from OpenGenius to discuss the power of artificial intelligence and how it can be harnessed in tools like Ayoia, an all-in-one mind mapping, planning and time management app to help neurodiverse children and adults at school and work.

01:05

Super fascinating episode. So welcome, devi. It is an absolute pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today to discuss a very hot topic, I think around the world, which is artificial intelligence and how it can actually be harnessed in tools like Aoyoya. I hope I'm pronouncing that right to support and help navigate some of the challenges that people face with neurodiversity and how it can support them both in school and at home. So you work for OpenGenius. I thought we could start off with you telling me a little bit about your role and what you're involved in there.

Davie JonesGuest

01:38

Absolutely no problem. So I'm the product relationship manager for OpenGenius and OpenGenius is the parent company the creators of AOA, and AOA is an AI-assisted all-in-one mind mapping, planning and time management app and I'm the main contact for Disabled Student Allowance or DSA and Workplace Needs Assessors and I provide support on all of AOA's features, recommendations or any other queries. I've not been working for Open Genius for long. I started in April this year.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

02:11

All right, so we get you. It's always actually good when someone starts a company, I think because you have a better lens yes, so exciting.

02:22

Yeah, well, my interest in this was you know, um, things like so I'm dyslexic, so you know just word. Having spell check, having grammar check, having those tools has made a humongous difference in my life. Um, being able to actually you know, I'm writing a book right now. I never would have thought of doing that without having the tools that we now have. And as artificial intelligence comes more into the forefront of chat, gbt and other tools, it just seems like a great topic to discuss on the podcast, to have other parents understand this, because I know my daughter goes to an independent special school. They do mind mapping and time management and planning Fantastic. But and I'm going to pronounce it wrong again, aoyoa.

Davie JonesGuest

03:04

Aoyoa, aoyoa, aoyoa.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

03:05

Aoyoa, okay, sorry.

Davie JonesGuest

03:06

People often ask what Aoyoa means. So it's not a word taken from dictionary, but instead it's a word that the company brought into being and we coined Aoyoa because nothing else fits. So it's a simple, fun and kind of similar sounding to Hawaiian greetings such as aloha or mahalo similar sounding to Hawaiian greetings such as aloha or mahalo.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

03:28

So it's a-o-a is how you pronounce it, but don't worry, you can pronounce it whichever way you like.

Davie JonesGuest

03:30

In the States they pronounce it differently than in the UK sometimes, so that's fine.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

03:36

Well, we'll see how many times I can pronounce it wrong on this podcast.

Davie JonesGuest

03:39

Don't worry, probably many.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

03:43

But what's really cool about it is that it takes something that my daughter in her school really incorporates, which is doing the mind mapping, doing the planning stuff, but then it layers in artificial intelligence to kind of help prompt. So I would love to get from the horse's mouth, so to speak, kind of a description of what it does as a tool and how it helps facilitate our children putting what's in their head down and using technology. And I know you mainly use it for college students and in workplaces, but getting an idea of how it works would be really helpful.

Davie JonesGuest

04:18

Okay, that's absolutely fine. So what EOE is? It's a powerful visual productivity tool and it's designed to help users to be more creative and plan their time better in a kind of visual environment. And with AOA, users can plan projects, they can manage tasks, they can collaborate with other students or other team members and they can present to an audience as well. So in terms of how AOL works, so it's browser-based, so all users receive the same experience, regardless of what operating system they're using, so if they're using a Mac, Chromebook, Windows machine, doesn't matter at all. It's also got a dedicated mobile app for Apple and Android as well, so that means that user students can access AOL all the time. They can access it when they're at school or college, but when they're going home on a bus, they can also open up the app and continue to use the product as well.

05:13

And in terms of how does the platform work? Really good question. So it allows users to create mind maps for assignments or projects. It allows users to create mind maps for assignments or projects, to plan tasks, work collaboratively with their peers, teachers or work colleagues, and maybe, if we speak a little bit about mind mapping and that will probably explain a little bit more about what AOA does.

05:47

So, in terms of mind mapping, a mind map is a visual thinking tool used to capture information and ideas, and a mind map begins with a central idea and branches out into key themes and further development of ideas that radiate from the center out. And mind mapping allows us to break free from linear thinking from dot to dot to dot and to embrace a multidimensional approach to problem solving and decision making. So AOA helps users visualize their projects. They can draw mind maps using our product. They can create links between branches, just like they would like your thoughts doing at school or a piece of paper, but they have full control over how they look at school, or a piece of paper, but they have full control over how they look. They can also expand their ideas by adding notes, images, uploading files and even recording voice notes directly into their mind maps. And they can turn ideas into actions and link tasks to specific answers.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

06:38

And it can prompt you too like it can prompt you, like using that artificial intelligence. My understanding is that from using it is that it will give you prompts as well.

Davie JonesGuest

06:47

Absolutely so the AI is kind of a Kickstarter to give you ideas. So a lot of students.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

06:54

Let's give an example of one.

Davie JonesGuest

06:55

So an example would be for example, a student has been given an essay on the Second World War history and they've been set that project and they've opened their notepad and they're looking at a blank page and basically nothing's happening. They don't know what to do Blank page syndrome. So what they can do is they can open up our product and we have two types of AI. We have generative AI, which is where that will give the student ideas to help, as I say, to kickstart, to get them started. They that will give the student ideas to, as I say, to kickstart, to get them started. They could type in the title of the essay or the assignment that they've been set and then the AI will give them prompts in a mind map format that they can then go and develop.

07:40

So we're not giving them the answer to the question because if they wanted to, the student could download chat, gpt, they could type in the question and that would give them the answer. They could submit that answer to their teacher and they would automatically fail if it was a university level for plagiarism, because you know the AI has done all the work. So we're using the AI to give people ideas. So not the whole answer just topics that will be in the mind map branches so that they can get started and start thinking about things, and it organizes the thoughts for you as well so because sometimes you're right so so you can be all over the place it can be all over the place, but there is a logic behind it.

08:15

So mind maps work in a kind of clockwise format. So the first idea will be at 12 o'clock and the last idea going around the clock will be at 11.59, if that makes sense. But there's no limit to the number of ideas that you add and you can see on the screen that you can move things around so that you can see all of your ideas. Or, if you find that overwhelming, you can just focus in and see the ideas that you're working on.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

08:41

Which is really brilliant on, which is really brilliant because, and and so you know, in terms of using it, because right now it's used mainly in universities, as my understanding is, you know, is it, is it accepted in universities? Is it, you know, is there? Um, I know, like in my job, my other job that I have, you know there's big discussions about, oh, artificial, you know, lockdown on artificial intelligence within the whole company. No one can use it stuff like that.

Davie JonesGuest

09:06

So do you get pushback? It's a commonly raised question, but AIO has approved software for the DSA Disabled Student Allowance.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

09:14

Okay.

Davie JonesGuest

09:15

And I don't know if you've seen the Russell Group statement about using AI, but basically the Russell Group of the top 25 universities in the UK have released a statement. If you Google it kind of Russell Group AI statement indication, you'll come up with the article and basically the Russell Group universities are saying that essentially if students acknowledge that they've used AI when they submit their papers, then that can be taken into consideration, because if we don't allow students with disabilities to use AI, it can really restrict what some disabled students are able to do or unable to do quickly. So it's a really useful tool. Just needs to be acknowledged if you use it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

09:57

Yeah, and I think you know, neurodiverse people have incredibly creative minds, and maybe I'm a bit biased, but you know and have really out-of-the-box thinking and sometimes it's getting all those really interesting ideas having a tool that can help you put that into an organized format is the missing link, so to speak and to be able to focus.

Davie JonesGuest

10:19

So sometimes having too much information or you know 20 pages of notes, you've got the notes, but then we find that you know, students get stuck if they're using a you know a piece of paper or a Microsoft Word document. There are pages and pages too much information. I get overwhelmed, really, you know I get stuck. So that's another way that our product can be used. If students maybe got, you know, a long document and they're struggling to organize, they could drop their document into our summative AI, so making a summary of what they've written, and that would make a mind map for them about how it could potentially be organized as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

10:54

So it reverse engineers it almost.

Davie JonesGuest

10:55

Almost absolutely Absolutely. And in terms of reverse engineering mind mappings, you know you can even reverse mind map ideas. So you know, instead of saying how can Manchester United win the Premier League, you could ask an AI question how could Manchester United lose the Premier League? And then switch those ideas that are created. So it's a very interesting tool.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

11:20

Now, and it's also used in the workplace too.

Davie JonesGuest

11:22

Workplace absolutely so. It's a really popular product in the DSA Disabled Student Allowance market. Students have a needs assessment and if that student has difficulties with planning, with essay writing, with concentration and so on, then it might be something that would be recommended, and that's the same for the workplace too. So if somebody in the workplace has difficulties with planning their time, forgetting to do things, managing big projects, presenting projects to their team, again it's something that is commonly recommended. And I don't think I mentioned when I kind of introduced myself at the beginning, but my background is as a DSA needs assessor, so I worked in that area for many years doing the type of assessments and making recommendations for disabled students entering further education and higher education.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

12:10

And so that's just for when kids go into university. I'm not at that phase yet, so I haven't experienced that myself. That's right. Yeah, now is there. Is there a rationale why we only use this when they go to university and that we don't use it in secondary schools, or is it just not yet?

Davie JonesGuest

12:25

expanded to. That main reason is that the cost of assistive technology, so there's a cost factor, um, so that can be prohibitive for for schools because, but you know, providing software titles to all students would be a significant cost. But saying that with our product in particular, we have a free version of of a hour um, and that free version doesn't necessarily have all of the what doesn't have, all of the all of the features that the product has, but it does allow you to mind map and to make brilliant mind maps and to be creative.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

12:58

So it's a kind of introduction and it might be that in some schools, for example, the teacher might have a paid for type license and then the students would use the free license to create mind maps and so on sense to, to create mind maps and so on, because it just, you know, I've had a couple of friends who children have, you know, have dyslexia and and other neurodiversities, who've just gone through gcse's and it's, it is exactly like you say. There's so much information and actually being able to have a tool like this one would be so helpful that, um, I could see and and getting to getting to use it with it with all technology solutions, it it's not like an instant.

Davie JonesGuest

13:38

It's like driving a car.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

• 13:39

  It's a great technology, but until you learn how to use it, you can't drive a car.

  Davie JonesGuest

13:43

And when I was a needs assessor, that's a major issue. So when we do a needs assessment we talk to the students about the difficulties and then we demonstrate software that we think might be helpful for them and then they choose the products that we demonstrate that they think will help them most. And then ideally what happens is we recommend assistive technology training for that young person and then they have the assistive technology training, they learn how to use the programs, they can see the advantages and benefits of, for example, ai or mind mapping or whatever it might be, and then they put that action. The problem is sometimes the students don't necessarily take up their assistive technology training and, as you said, if they don't know how to use the product, that can be a bit of a problem. Although saying that AOA in particular is very intuitive, as you've probably found using the trial version.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

14:31

But even using dictation, there's a skill to it, you know what I mean and you kind of version, but even like using, like, even using dictation there's a skill to it, you know.

Davie JonesGuest

14:37

I mean I would strongly recommend, uh, anybody who's offered any assistive technology training to take it up, because it's just, it's a quick way to learn how to use the key features of a program no, it's absolutely true, and you know, I wish they had you know like I wish they had you know how they have like typing um, uh, typing uh typing touch typing courses I teach.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

14:55

Rs is the one my daughter uses. I wish they had that for some of the technologies out there for kids in secondary schools that they can practice and play with, because typing isn't really great for my daughter either. Fine motor is difficult.

Davie JonesGuest

15:07

So, yeah, you know, it's that practice and that using it over and over that that embeds it and I think for your daughter in particular, from what you're saying about touch typing and not really liking to type. So with AOA we've tried to think about neurodiverse individuals and introduce features that support them. So, for example, if a student has dyslexia not all students with dyslexia have experienced visual stress by any means, but some do, and by visual visual stress I mean having difficulty reading black text on a white background. So we have features where, if a student wants to, they can change the background color of the mind map or the document view that they're working on within the mind map to match their preferred color and preferred font as well. And with voice recognition I've got a Mac at home and if I want to, I can use voice recognition to do my whole assignment.

15:59

Within ai I can also. With ai you can do voice notes. So some students make the, the basic mind map, then they do voice notes for every branch of the mind map and then afterwards they either listen back to what they've recorded and maybe type up that information, or they use voice recognition to kind of parrot, so to speak, what they've what they've heard. So listen back and then say the same thing, and so they're essentially doing their whole assignment by voice and that is really helpful for a lot of neurodiverse learners it opens up the world for absolutely so you don't have to work in it, I think, the key children.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

16:33

So you don't have to work in a.

Davie JonesGuest

16:34

I think the key thing with AI, you don't have to work in a traditional way, you can work in a creative visual way and we've a lot of students really like that.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

16:42

Yeah, absolutely. I mean in all honesty, I think all students would enjoy it. I mean, I can't even read my own writing. Likewise, my handwriting is terrible, as anybody in my office will tell you. That's why I became a doctor, my mom said because I can write. But it is, you know, it is the way of the future and I think it's going to break down some of the barriers or the inequalities that our current systems have in place for our children.

Davie JonesGuest

17:17

There is fear around it unfortunately Absolutely, which I don't.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

17:21

I think you can't close the box, olivia.

Davie JonesGuest

17:23

AI is here. It's not going. We need to think about how we can embrace it to help neurodiverse individuals and individuals with disabilities, especially in education, and that's what we're essentially trying to do with AOA.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

17:38

Yeah, no, and I'm. I just you know, I see, I see what it's done for my daughter in her life, where she's got the most amazing imagination she creates the most creative stories about, you know, a butcher who has a pet pig, who you know has conflict, because you know how can he be a butcher and have a pet pig? You know crazy ideas and full of imagination that she could never get out until she was enabled with technology to be able to dictate it out. And so I think you know it's just it's, it's it's making parents aware. And then there's also, you know, a need to kind of push through school systems, to embracing this as well, um, and not being afraid of it, and I think that's probably gonna. I'd love to get your views, because you've, you've, you've spent a lot of time in universities, but you know getting this across the line with educators yeah, quite interesting.

Davie JonesGuest

18:29

Before um I have spent a lot of time working with universities and in universities. But in my um early career, you know I worked in further education, further education colleges for teaching English for speakers of other languages. I worked at a college in Cornwall and even this is this is way back 2003. But even then, you know, there are some teachers that were looking to bring in any assistive technology because of the advantages it brings to all students.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

19:00

Yeah, it's something that I would like to see implemented more and I'd like to take it out of you know. You know, why don't we?

Davie JonesGuest

19:08

I mean so, I've never really heard of a disabled students allowance before and why is it just in universities and not in secondary schools where we assess which kind of it's the, the funding issue which is which is which is frustrating, because idea in an ideal world, you know, if students at school um could start to start using all these amazing project uh products, then when they go to university they can just carry on.

19:33

They don't have to spend that X number of weeks learning how to use that. They've got a new computer and fantastic software that's going to help them, but while everybody else is getting used to life at university and settling in, they're having to spend additional time learning how to use the software. So it would be great if it was possible to get the products or access to the products earlier on. If it was possible to get the products or access to the products earlier on and, as I say, with AOA there is the free version, so they can do that. But you have to be very self-motivated to find AOA and start using it as a school student, I think.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

20:06

Well, that's part of the reason for this podcast was because I think it's really interesting and I'm going to try and see if my daughter's school is interested in trialing it and also start using it with my daughter for different things as well, because I would even argue that, you know, I don't know whether she's going to go to university or not, but with these tools it opens up the more potential that they will be able to go on to other education because they've had the support and the tools in place.

20:32

So you know, they may never make it to university without implementing these things early on.

Davie JonesGuest

20:37

Absolutely. And even if they don't, there's another. So if you go to university and you have a disability that's accepted by student finance, then you qualify for a needs assessment. But if you don't go that route, if you don't decide to go to university at all, there's also access access to work, which some of the listeners may have heard of, which is support for disabled and neurodiverse individuals in the workplace, and that is often access to the same software and support, but for the workplace. So there's really, you know, there's a flow really. So sometimes a student goes to university and then they know the AT software that helps them. So when they go into workplace and they have their access to work assessment, they know what to ask for when they have the needs assessment and then they're supported in the workplace with the appropriate assistive tech.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

21:29

It's actually interesting. One of the other roles or hats I wear is medical director for a company that supplies that contract for the DWP. So I'm very familiar with the access to work contract and and yeah, it's, it's great to I provide clinical supervision for their, their clinical clinical individuals there. But you know it's.

Davie JonesGuest

21:50

Is that for occupational health and things like that, Occupational health assessments or no more? The individuals?

Dr Olivia KesselHost

21:55

who are doing the kind of assessment of if they have barriers to work from a clinical coaching, mental health kind of perspective, that they get that support that then enables them to access work alongside the occupational therapist recommendations as well.

Davie JonesGuest

22:16

And it really does make a difference, because in my early career I used to be an assistive technology trainer myself and I've done some assistive technology training in the workplace and seen what a massive difference it can make to people's productivity having the right tools to level the playing field, so to speak.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

I mean without Outlook, and even with Outlook I can mess up my time management. I haven't been diagnosed with ADHD, but I have with dyslexia, but, you know, without Outlook reminding me about appointments and having those calendars, I you know we already do it to a degree, but this is kind of like taking it to the next level and also, you know, for individuals that are really struggling, it makes life easy, you know.

Davie JonesGuest

once to have a look at the time management features of AOA, but basically they're a time management task boards built in so that you can get notifications on the projects that you're working on, either within the app itself or you can integrate it with your Google or Outlook calendar as well and then everything's synced. So if you change something in your Outlook calendar you'll get notifications within AO app as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

23:23

Which is fantastic, because then that decreases the confusion as well. And then another aspect of it which is interesting is it all exports into like Word or PowerPoint, like, so you can create outlines and stuff. So there's a good integration.

Davie JonesGuest

23:34

Absolutely right, yeah, so a's a good integration. Absolutely right. So a university student or a school student can do their essays from start to finish with AOA. They mind map it. But then there are various views. With AOA you can have the mind map view, which is an organic mind map, and you can see all of the branches and everything that you've been working on, any pictures you've added. But when it comes to submitting it formally, you switch to a document view. You'd see the essay in a standard kind of academic format and then choose, as you say, to export it to Microsoft Word or to save it so it can be as a Google Doc or PDF or whatever format that you need to have it exported in.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:12

Yeah, I think you're either one or the other. I'm definitely Microsoft and then Google just completely confuses me. And then other people are the other way around. It's like Android versus Apple.

Davie JonesGuest

24:23

Yeah, I think, absolutely. I think a lot of colleges use Google Docs, so students are familiar with it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:29

But, like you, I prefer to export to Microsoft Word, if that's an option if that's an option, and then, what's funny, you go into the workforce and they're more like they're more microsoft-based than the google-based.

Davie JonesGuest

24:41

Yeah, so so it's good that it can do both, you know yeah, we try to cover all the bases and make it as flexible as possible, make it as easy as possible for to make it as easy as possible and and that you have the free subscription is great and that you can actually get funding for it from from a university or from an access to work perspective is also great. Just to clarify, it has to be kind of disability related need. It's not for everybody.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

25:07

Yeah, yeah, no. But what about if you just wanted to buy a membership?

Davie JonesGuest

25:12

So various options. So we have various subscription models. So various options, so we have various subscription models. If you go to, if your listeners go to aowacom, they can see that the various. We have monthly subscription or annual subscription and they can just choose the best subscription that suits them if they need.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

25:28

Yeah, and you give a seven-day free trial. Absolutely.

Davie JonesGuest

25:31

So that's really important as well, because somebody can try before they buy, see if it suits them. And if you have a paid version but your subscription expires, you don't. You don't lose, uh, all your work. You just revert to the, the, the kind of the free version.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

25:47

You still have all your maps that you've made that's great and it is really visual, which I think really, you know, is really, really, really helpful. Well, super interesting, and I you know it's been uh, very interesting to hear about the technology, also, your background experience in terms of dsa and and what's you know available to people out there with disabilities, or you know parents who have children with disabilities, because knowledge is power, to know that you can access these things and there is a route.

Davie JonesGuest

26:11

You know there there is a route to university for support um for neurodiverse individuals and disabled um individuals. Um, it's just, you'd be surprised how many. I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised, but it's, it's not the. The transition from school to university is not clear.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

26:29

The pathway um to everybody and and some schools are better at knowing about it than than others, I think that's one of the impetuses for this podcast is because knowledge is power and so much of the knowledge is just not common knowledge. So I really appreciate you being, uh, joining us on the podcast today. Um, I always and I did forewarn you because, um, you know, I sometimes I forget to forewarn, but if you could give three top tips to our parent and educator listeners, um, that they can take away and put in their pocket and take with them after listening to this podcast, what would they be?

Davie JonesGuest

27:04

so really good, really. You didn't give me much warning for this, olivia, but um uh. So she told me about 45 minutes before the uh interview was starting, so what?

27:14

as I said, you're telling all my secrets so, as I said, ai is uh, so you know, if I've got an AI assistant at my fingertips, certainly I'm going to use it. So I asked AI's AI assistant for three top tips for using AI, and I received the following advice. So, number one use AI's AI functionality to help you kickstart your thinking and put an end to blank page syndrome. Number two, use AO as planner and planning features to set reminders so you never miss a project deadline again. And number three, be creative. Use colors and pictures when you're mind mapping to connect your ideas in a visual, nonlinear way, and this will help you organize information in a very memorable way and have fun when you're using our product, because it is really fun to use.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

28:01

Uh, it's a really creative tool and it's a really really improve your productivity and I don't know if my the way my mind works and when I played around with it, like the colors and and the way it's laid out and how you can make it.

28:13

That's how things stick in my brain, like I used to do it with a pen and big piece of paper but so much nicer to be able to do it on the screen and have it saved and legible and readable or absolutely, and there is kind of there is a logic to to mind mapping.

Davie JonesGuest

28:25

Um, so, but the the logic is first of all you create a central idea in the middle of your mind map and that should be the starting point of the mind map and it represents the topic that you're going to explore. Um, then you start adding branches. Really easy to do with aoa, you can just, you'll see there's little crosses, you click and drag, or we've got shortcuts and um, these branches flow from the central idea. They're the key themes for you to explore in depth by adding child branches or sub branches. And so you start adding your branches and then you start adding keywords. So, rather than writing summer barbecue on July 16th, I would just add a few keywords onto branches like summer or barbecue, and then that really lets my imagination start to flow. So limiting words to key phrases works well for kind of chunking information into core topics and themes, and then I can use those keyword triggers to make connections in my brain, which will then let me remember lots of information and so on going forward.

29:28

Mind map. Color is really important. So, yeah, it's so, select a color for your branch that gives your brain associations and allows it to make mental shortcuts. So for if you were making a mind map for revision, you'd practice going along the green branch or going on the blue branch and it will almost make an imprint in your mind. So when you go to do your exam you'll see the blue branch or green branch walk your way along it, walk your way all along the sub-branches and then you can recreate that in the exam. Finally, important to add images and visual elements to your mind map because images can convey more information than words often, or sentences, or even a whole essay. And images are processed instantly by the brain, as you know, and acts as a visual stimuli to help record information. So students who use for revision, there are lots of images on there. They see the map in their mind's eye when they're doing their exams and get good results.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

30:22

Yeah, exactly Because I mean words can be so difficult for dyslexia, it just can be challenging whereas a picture can stick with you and a color can stick with you.

Davie JonesGuest

30:33

And you'll see with expert mind mappers. Their mind maps are not wordy, they're extremely visual, but those keywords are so important and they can be used for, you know, for presentations and so on as well. And we've also got some nice presentation features within AOA. Making PowerPoints and things like that can be quite challenging for students, so AOA has a presenter mode where you make your mind map, click a button and if you want it to, AOA will make that presentation for you automatically.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

31:00

Wow.

Davie JonesGuest

31:00

Yeah, wow, also the share features, olivia. I don't know if you looked at those. Probably not in the trial version.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

31:07

No, I don't have anyone to share with.

Davie JonesGuest

31:18

With going back to the DSA Disabled Student Allowance. So often students are recommended assistive technology, but also they're recommended what's called nmh non-medical help. And non-medical help can be things like um, it's not. It's not medical support for a medical condition, it's support for things like study skill support, help helping you learn how to to become a better writer and to improve your writing skills, or mental health support, and so on. So often students will have this kind of non-medical support for a certain number of hours per year and what they can do students can do with ao is they can share their mind maps and their with their support tutors. There's a little button. They click the button and then, if the support tutor agrees, the support tutor can then see the projects that the student's been created on. They can see any planning they've been doing, deadlines they have, and they can even chat within AOA as well, send messages to each other, plan their next one-to-one sessions, which students get as part of DSA's support as well. So it's really a collaborative tool.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

32:14

Yeah, puts you on the same page.

Davie JonesGuest

32:15

Yeah, or that could be your teacher in a school, for example. You know sharing maps, or students sharing maps with their peers, and so on. That's not available in the free version, but it is in the kind of the paid for version. Yeah.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

32:29

Yeah, you gotta have some reason for them to pay. You can't give it all away for free. Yeah Well, thank you very much, david.

32:37

It's been super helpful and I'd recommend everyone to go and have a look at it and check, check it out and give it a try, you know um do it with your kids Cause it's fun, like that's, you know, um, I'm going to over this, uh, you know, cause it doesn't necessarily even have to be school stuff that you can do it with. Know, like, if you're planning something, like my daughter and I are planning a bike-a-thon, you can do a bike-a-thon from there and what, what, what.

Davie JonesGuest

32:59

my map would flow so great for planning parties and and so on. Yeah, all sorts of things. It's a tool for creativity well, thank you very much. Baby take care my pleasure, thank you thank you for listening.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

33:11

Send parenting tribe. Links to open genius and ayoya can be found in the show notes. Please follow us if you aren't already. I wanted to wish you and your family a good week ahead. Getting back into the groove of going to school is never easy, for both children and parents alike. Thank you, you, you, you, you.