Transcript - Episode 81 — SEND Parenting

EP 81: EHCP Implementation & School Choices with Jenny Hooper

Please excuse any errors from this autogenerated transcript

Dr Olivia KesselHost

00:05

Thank you for listening Send Parenting Tribe and a big thank you to those listeners who have rated the podcast, because I know quite a few of you have. For those of you who haven't and it's still on the to-do list, please, please, please, rate us. All you have to do, if you're in Apple Podcasts, search Send Parenting, scroll down past all the episodes and then give us a rating one out of five stars. It will help other parents see this podcast, and I know that I felt very alone when I first discovered my child was neurodiverse and needed extra help, and I would have appreciated having access to this podcast. So by you rating it, it'll make it more visible.

00:46

In this episode we will be continuing our discussion from last week with Jenny Hooper, ceo of the Evolving Mind Clinic, with over 39 years of experience in the field of teaching and special education needs. In today's discussion, we'll pick up where we left off from obtaining an EHCP plan. What happens next, what can you expect moving forward, what do they mean by annual review, and what can you do if your child's needs aren't being met in their current school? A super interesting discussion and one that I really enjoyed and learned a lot from. Well, welcome back. Jenny, thank you for agreeing to do part two on what was a super interesting discussion.

01:31

Last week we got really into the thick of it with how to realize that something is going maybe a little bit awry with your child through an IEP to an EHCP, and we ended with 16 weeks where you're at in the EHCP application process and I think that's where we should pick up and go all the way through to being awarded an EHCP. And then what to expect after that, because I know from my perspective, getting the EHCP felt like I'd won the lottery, that I'd gotten the golden ticket for my chocolate bar and that all my Christmases had come and I didn't realize that actually it's just the beginning of the journey and you actually need to understand the document and work with it as you move forward. So I'm looking forward to our discussion today and, hopefully, our listeners. Interest was piqued last week and let's hit it from week 16. If you can just recap a little bit and then we can take it forward from there.

Jenny HooperGuest

02:28

So week six they've made a decision. They're going to do the assessment from week six to week 16. There's the gathering of evidence for the documents. Week 14, it is hoped that you might have a co-production meeting, although lots of local authorities don't do that and then a draft document is produced and at that stage of the draft document that is submitted for statutory panel. So what are they looking for and what should you be looking for in the EHCP?

03:00

So the EHCP is written in several different sections, some of which you have a lot of control over and others you don't, and that's important. Some bits you can take to tribunal and some parts you can't. So the first part of the document is section A of the document. Now this is your part of your document that is totally yours. You can write anything you like in section A. Now what does a good section A look like? Well, it's a culmination of parental thoughts and child views and getting the best out of your child. Sometimes the SENCO can do that better than you can, and sometimes it might be a photograph or pictures, or it might be a letter they've written, or anything they like, which talks about basically what they like about school, what they don't like about school, what they find is difficult, what they need support with. But the important thing about Section A is that you can put whatever you like in it.

04:09

Now, what is the point of that? Because Section A is not. You can't take Section A to tribunal. But I think Section A gives you a flavour of the child and the situation and, irrespective as to whether you can take that to tribunal, it is read by somebody. It's very difficult to read something and just immediately forget about it.

04:31

So you know, you put in what that journey looks like. You put in the difficulties that your young person has. You put in your hopes and dreams for that young person and your hopes and dreams as a parent. You make that as thorough and as robust as possible and the local authority will put that in. They have to put that in. I very rarely have situations where local authorities don't put parental views into Section A. So that bit is very, very important. You don't need to put all the diagnoses and you know all of those kind of thing. It is very much. You know your thoughts and your child's thoughts. So it's important. So that's section A. Now in the EHCP we have a lot of partnerships and, if I can explain it, that section B is partnered with Section F, so B and F and I always think best friends.

05:28

B and F best friends, because Section B are the needs of the child. Okay, now these needs are created through your formal reports. So they are created from the school, from the EEP, from an occupational therapist. They could be from a speech and language therapist, they can be formed in any way, but they come from reports and they are specifically what the needs of the child are. Now, how do parents feed into Section B? Well, they feed into them by having good communication with all the other people that are writing reports, because if then your parental view goes into an EP report, it can then make its way into Section B. So for every need in Section B there must be a provision defined in section f. So just think, best friends, every single need does it have a provision. That will depend.

06:35

Every ehcp is set out in a different way. Unfortunately, all local authorities do it differently, but actually the government are moving to to. Hopefully the best thing that will come out of the, the sen reform, will be that there'll be a national ehcp and they'll all look the same. It would make everybody's life easier. So we've got a is the parents needs and we've got b is the child's needs, and b is matched with F further down. Sometimes they put them side by side. Local authorities do that. And then you've got C, which is health needs, and C has a partner in G. So you get C and G I haven't got a nice acronym for that one. I always think of best friends because that's the best one but and G go together. So you've got health needs in C and you've got health provision in G. Now your needs and your provision to do with health are things that are over and above what is ordinarily available.

07:43

So if your young person wears glasses and they regularly go to the opticians, that is not over and above. Lots of people wear glasses. But if your young person sees an ophthalmologist, for instance, and that is significant in their ability to be able to learn, then that would go in section C. That is the need. There's a squint, there's an eye issue in terms of being able to focus on learning. You'd see that in C and then in G you would see a regular ophthalmologist appointment, perhaps at a hospital. Sometimes people put authorities, put things in like somebody is overweight or they're tall. Well, these are part of human beings, you know, unless the person that's overweight regularly sees a dietician because they have, let's say, prader-willi syndrome, where they eat all the time. That might well fit. But if that young person is just overweight, that's not an additional need. So just be careful that in Section C you've got needs that are specific to educational difficulties. So you've got needs that are specific to educational difficulties.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

09:06

So you've got being there and it sounds like it has an impact on their education. So it's a health condition that has an impact on their education and they and it sounds like a regular provision because, if you remember, I said every need must have a provision.

Jenny HooperGuest

09:20

So that's, you know where you've got to be. So you know. If you've got somebody that's overweight, you know what? What? What are health doing? Um, if if that person was overweight to the point that they were unable to move around the school, for instance, then the expectation would be that there would be a provision in there that was supporting with that weight loss or weight gain or whatever it might be.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

09:46

To summarize you have your educational needs in your best friend group, which is the B, with how those needs are going to be met in the F, and then you have your health reasons that might be impacting your education and how those needs will be met in the G section.

Jenny HooperGuest

10:03

Yes, yes, and then we move on to D, which is social care. So, again, if you have social care involvement, your young person has social care. Some people have respite breaks, some people have see a social worker regularly or they're on a SIN plan, a child in need plan, or they've got a team around a family plan, something like that. There may be specific needs related to social care in D and that is partnered with H. So D and H work together. There's H1 and h2. I have to tell you that I think the majority of social workers don't know the difference between h1 and h2 because it's so complicated. It's one is to do with more, with respite, and one is to do with um, a, um oh, my brain's gone A chronic condition, a chronic condition that might affect social care and might require support for equipment and such like within the home. So it is quite confusing. So you've got B and.

11:20

F, you've got C and G and you've got D and H together, sandwich. Then in the middle you've got E, and E is your outcomes. So what you are trying to achieve for your young person through looking at the needs, looking at the provision and in the middle, what are we trying to achieve? Now, outcomes are usually written by an EP, but they can also be written by a school and they can also be written by other professionals like speech and language therapists as well. But you don't want too many outcomes in there and that would be dependent also on the stage that your young person is in educationally, because when you're in key stage one, you're going to have very different outcomes than if you're preparing for adulthood and you're in year 10 or 11. Ok, so the outcomes should be written for a key stage. Ok, so they're not annual outcomes. And that's really important for parents to understand, because this document sits as an umbrella underneath your IEPs are sitting to support those outcomes. So the outcome let's say the outcome is that Johnny will achieve age-related reading by the end of the key stage. Now, obviously that's a huge outcome, particularly if your child is not yet reading. But underneath that your school would write an IEP that has in stages that is reviewed on a six-weekly basis, that are all feeding into that one outcome, and so when you have an annual review of the document, you're going to be reviewing those stages effectively to achieve that outcome. So section e is also uh, you're not allowed to take that to tribunal either. So you're not allowed to take section a and you're not allowed to take section e, but it is in negotiation. The outcome I mean the outcomes you know fundamentally what we're looking at. What are we trying to achieve from this, what you're working towards? Right, that's it. And that is the bit that the pair, that parents, that is the bit that schools need in order to give them their structure. They know what the needs of the child are, they know what the outcome is and they can see the provision that they've got in order to be able to achieve that. Okay, so that's a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, I. So I is the naming of the school. Now, when you have a draft, you will find there is nothing in. I Don't be afraid that is legal.

14:29

Okay, get a parental preference for a school. Now you submit your parental preference to the authority and they have to send the draft document to the school to decide whether they can meet the need of your child. Now, that can be a nursery, it can be a mainstream school, it can be an independent school. It can be a specialist provision. It can be a specialist independent. It can be a college, it can be anything.

15:03

Okay, some authorities will give you one, more than one parental preference. But let's be realistic. Your parental preference is your parental preference. Whichever you know, really, you should be picking one that you think is right when you receive your final plan. That is when section I will be completed. If a school says yes and it is your parental preference and it is efficient use of resources that's the sticking point then it will be named in section I.

15:33

If, for instance, let's take something really general and unrealistic let's say you decided you wanted your child to go to Eton, but the local authority had said but the local school said that they can meet the needs of the child. Eton is going to cost you £200,000 a term. The local school is going to cost you nothing. The local authority will go with the local school and they will go with the local schools, because the local authority has a responsibility for the public purse and they are not allowed to use funds inappropriately, as they think. Now that's a that's a wild picture, but actually the reality for parents is they are often not getting school that they have requested and and local authorities are naming mainstream schools when a specialist provision is what a parent wants, and it's at that point that you go through that same process that we talked about in part one, where you ask for a next steps or a way forward meeting, or you go to mediation and then you go to a tribunal.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

16:44

And I think here it is worth interjecting my own experience with this, because you know, obviously the local authorities are cash strapped and they, you know there's more need than there is budget. So as a parent, you need to make sure that the school that they've named in my case it was a mainstream school which I would be delighted if they could have met my daughter's needs. And I went on my own and went and met with a SENCO at that school with my daughter's reports and sat down with them and said you know, how will you meet my daughter's needs? And take me through what's going to happen. And both of us came to the conclusion that they would not be able to meet my daughter's needs, that, yes, the needs could be met, and so ended up going through kind of a process where they said, no, you know, the school can meet the needs for this amount of money.

17:39

And luckily I did have a solicitor at this point who did a subject access request, who actually got all of the emails and the school had said it would cost them more money and the local authority hadn't had withheld that piece of information for me. So I think it's important, also as a parent, to make sure that you're financially aware of what the needs would be, what the school the local authority is is naming, because actually the school the local authority was naming in the case of my daughter they didn't want her actually and they couldn't meet need but they were being kind of strong, held into it and you know through that evidence being kind of strong held into it and you know through that evidence we were at the tribunal then able to show the subject access request and show the amount that the school had said would be required to meet my daughter's needs and it actually was cheaper the school that I had put as the school that I would prefer her to go to.

Jenny HooperGuest

18:24

So I think there is a need for parents to empower themselves as well at that stage. That subject access request is free to do so. I would advise parents.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

18:37

I didn't know about it though. Yeah, I didn't even know about it. So that's why I wanted to bring it up now, because, and even in I mean we got like 500 emails even in that the local authority said now, don't say anything, because parents are getting wise to getting these, uh, getting these reports, you know. So I, I didn't know about it, but the school it did. It did come out in that and it was really useful because I would have loved it if the school close to my house could meet my daughter's needs. But the reality was, you know, go and check the school out. Go and, you know, do your due diligence yourself as a parent and make sure that you're comfortable with it. Because, unfortunately, due diligence yourself as a parent and make sure that you're comfortable with it because, unfortunately, the local authority, for the best of intentions, is hamstrung because of budget 100%.

Jenny HooperGuest

19:22

I mean, you know you would like to think that all local authorities have their child's needs at heart, and I think the individuals do, but collectively as an organisation it's about is it an efficient use of public funds? Is it an efficient use of public funds? No right? Well, we're going to push. We're going to push the mainstream school. So, yeah, that is what you do. If you get, if if in Section I you do not, you know it says mainstream school and you wanted a special school getting a subject access request and you can get that through your local offer, there will be a department that has to give that information to you and there are legal stipulations in terms of that and they might not. I mean, it was great that you found something in yours. Sometimes there isn't anything and sometimes it's. You know, sometimes parents want, you know parents want to have the expensive independent special school and actually the maintained special school down the road can meet need and so you know we should be supporting our maintained schools as as well.

20:23

Um, you know, sufficiency and commissioning across the country is lacking. There are not enough places. There are not. There's just not enough for. But local authorities are, you know, strapped for cash to kind of move that forward. But I think that is moving forward. So that's in section I, um, and then section j is not talked about very much and it probably should be. Section j is personal budgets. Now, personal budgets is not a massive thing I'm going to go into today, olivia, but that it's definitely one for another podcast, another time I think so too, because that's pandora's box there, jenny absolutely is.

21:03

So I'm going to brush over it a little bit today. But, effectively, personal budget is something that can be requested by a family. If, for instance let's give you a quick for instance the NHS cannot provide the speech and language support that is in the plan because they don't have the capacity to do it, and you say I've got a speech and language therapist, they can come to my home and they can do that, but I need money in order for you to be able to do that. You can request a personal budget to fulfil something that's in section F that the local authority are not able to comply with or is more convenient to you, or whatever. So that's a whole other story. Personal budgets but that is what goes in section J. Usually new plans tend not to have them, but I think they tend not to have them because parents don't really understand them and they, they don't know at that point whether it can all be fulfilled or not. So you know you can request it at any annual review and you should do. You should be asked, you should be. Do you need a personal budget?

22:10

And then section K is your appendices, so it's all the documents that have been used to create your EHCP.

22:21

Now lots of people think that this is not a very important part of the plan, part of the plan, but it actually is, because the coordinator or or send caseworker that writes your plan isn't copying and pasting everything from a plan into the EHCP.

22:40

They cherry pick the bits that they think are the important. Bits might not be the same bits that you think are important and that's where some of the discussion comes in, but the EHCP is supposed to be a document which coordinates all of those things together. So alongside the EHCP goes those documents, those reports that you've had done, and so you shouldn't be really looking at the EHCP without having those other documents as well, because every detail so for instance, you do all the, the WISC test and this test and that test with the EP well, they don't go into the EHCP. The recommendations and the, the needs and the provision go in, but the actual report itself has great value. So make sure that all of the documents that you've submitted are in and they are dated, and also what that subsequently means is, should you require something else, like you want a new EP report, you've got evidence of your EHCP when your last EP report was done.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

23:45

And that's an educational psychologist report just for those of us who don't know all the acronyms and I wouldn't want to see.

Jenny HooperGuest

23:53

I think that EP reports are only well. It depends on the age of the child. If you've got a child that's five and then they're eight, the change is enormous, whereas the change potentially between a I don don't know a 19 and a 21 year old might not be as great and on me it's kind of like having a recipe which is your ehcp and then these are the ingredients and they go bad.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:20

So you need to make sure that you have the right fresh ingredients.

Jenny HooperGuest

24:23

That's a great analogy. Absolutely, that's exactly right. So ep reports if you haven't had an ep report for two years maximum two and a half years you need to request a new one, or get a new one if you have the financial means to do so. Because because that is actually the backbone of the education, health and care plan is the educational and that really helps with the practical solutions in the classroom as well for your child.

24:50

So I want to just talk a little bit about provision, Section F. So there are some things you should be looking out for. One of the things I would say is specificity. So in your provision in Section F, you want to know who is delivering it, for how long are they delivering it, when are they delivering or how frequently they are delivering it. So delivered by a TA, a teaching assistant, for 20 minutes on a weekly basis. Specificity is key.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

25:31

And this is the difference between a vanilla EHCP, in my opinion, and one that's fit for purpose, because it's just like in life If I say, oh, I'm going to lose weight and become slim in the next two months, it doesn't happen. But if you say I'm going to cut my calories down by this much every day, whatever it is I'm going to do, you need to be specific and it has to be in the EHCP for it to be actionable, measurable and to actually see what the outcomes are. And this point is so key. I just want to underline, highlight for listeners, this point, because when you review your draft EHCP, you have to go through it with this kind of mindset Is it specific, is it actionable and can mindset? Is it specific, is it actionable and can I measure the outcomes with it?

Jenny HooperGuest

26:12

yes, yeah. So we expect outcomes to be what we call smart, so specific, measurable, achievable, um, uh, reviewed and time bound time time. So we would expect those to be in there, and that then relates into the specificity in that provision. And also, you need to look out for buzzwords that you shouldn't see. So a bit like you saying about losing weight, if I said Jenny would benefit from losing weight, it doesn't mean that I'm actually going to do it. Losing weight, it doesn't mean that I'm actually going to do it. So don't have things that you but being saying benefit from is not lawful. Will have, must have, okay we'll achieve.

27:01

Yeah, so the other one yeah, so really powerful words that that aren't wishy-washy exactly the other one that we don't like to see, or you shouldn't see, is opportunities to. Johnny will have opportunities to go to the safe space. Well, no, johnny will go to the safe space when he feels it's to go, or whatever it might be. So those are my two. They'll be my red words for you looking out for. Do not accept benefits from, do not accept opportunities to, because neither of those should be in your EHCP. They need to be much, much more defined, and then you've got that specificity. So if you were to go to tribunal with your EHCP, those are the things that tribunal would also pick up, because they want that specificity to be in there. So you are completely within your rights in your co-production meeting and or any other meeting, to ask for you know who is taking it, how frequently. You know sometimes where is it taking place can also be beneficial in terms of that, and look out for those buzzwords. So, yes, that looks at all the different parts of the EHCP, and so at week 16, when they then say, yes, we are going to issue this, they will then equate an amount of money to go with your plan.

28:36

Now, lots of local authorities don't share that with parents. Um, and I have mixed feelings about it because I don't know how relevant it is, uh, that you know the specific pounds and pennies of you know why that is relevant. What you need to know is can you meet the needs of my child? Can you meet what is in this document, yes or no? If you can't, why can't so?

28:58

we tend not to get parents involved with funding. However, I think it's quite important that you understand how it's made up. So it's made up of three elements. So element one is what is given to all children in all schools and it's a different, slightly different amount for primary than it is for secondary, but it's a set amount. Then you get element two, which we talked about in programme one where we talked about that notional funding, one where we talked about that notional funding, so we talked about that six thousand pounds notional funding. So you've then got your element one plus your element two.

29:38

And then element three is the cost of the provision that is in section f of your plan from your ehcp, and anything that's in your plan should be over and above what is ordinarily available. Okay, it's exceptional, yeah, so you're not having, you're in your plan. It won't say, um, that little Johnny will have reading books every two weeks or whatever, because that's quality first teaching. You'd expect to see that without that. You know it. It won't say anything that you would find in in that quality first teaching. It will be over and above and that will be equated to an amount of money, and so that amount that is for that provision is has the six thousand pounds deducted from it. And then it has the element one which the school have already got. So imagine it's £15,000. So they look at it all and they say, okay, it's about £15,000 for that provision.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

30:37

They then take off £6,000 and they give the school the £11,000, so that's worth remembering that, that notion- yeah, and and based on our discussions in part one, with the flexibility of using those funds, those funds, let's be honest, might not be around. So, uh, you know, yeah, it's a, it's a.

Jenny HooperGuest

31:01

It's a point to really understand yeah, so that that happens and you won't know about it. Really, uh, what will happen is that you will be told this is a school Hopefully it's the school you want. If it's not, you've got that legal right of redress to the tribunal if necessary, and then you're. So you're now in the school that you want and you've got your EP and you've got your EHCP. So what is the next?

Dr Olivia KesselHost

31:32

question. You've won the lottery, you've gone through all of this. You have your document. It's specific, it's accountable, you're in a school and you know what. No one tells you this. I mean, I remember I'm on our WhatsApp group because I am in a specialist school, but parents are like what's this annual review? I'm like I don't. Are like what's this annual review? I'm like I don't know what's this annual review, what does it mean? What do we do, you know?

Jenny HooperGuest

31:51

so it's the beginning of your journey it really is, and I think what you need to remember with the EHCP is it's a legal document and it's a legal document which can remain with your child till they're 25 years old, and your responsibility, as with the school, is to review that document. So when do you get to review it? Now? The code of practice is very clear and it says that it, as a minimum, it is reviewed annually. I'd like to see parents have managed to get more than one annual review in a year. Doesn't tend to happen, but it is a minimum. So a minimum of a year. They should. It should be reviewed, but there are two. There are two buts to that. The first is if you've got a child that's under five, it must be reviewed six monthly. And the second one is if you've got a new plan, it has to be reviewed six monthly. So the first review is at six months, not a year okay, that didn't happen with me, that's interesting under fives every six months, because they're changing so rapidly and a new plan?

32:59

you should have it reviewed after six months. So try and push for that. You can call an annual review whenever you like. You don't have to wait for the school. You just say I want my plan review now. Whether or not it will subsequently be amended is a different matter, but it should be reviewed. So imagine you've asked for a review or the SENCO is having a review. This is something I've said many times in many trainings to legal authorities and to parents. An annual review is not a parent's evening. It is not a parent's evening. It is a review of a legal document and therefore you need to go through that plan section by section. You legally have to receive your documents two weeks before the annual review date so that that gives you an opportunity to look at the document carefully and make any amendments that you see fit.

33:55

If you do not receive that documentation, you are perfectly within your legal rights that you are not attending the annual review. Do not be bamboozled into having a document flung across the table I mean flungung passed across the table to you and being told these are the changes. And then you are. You go into reticular hijack because you can't pay attention to the meeting and be looking at the document. You must, must, must be prepared for these annual review meetings, and so you know you have to receive that information two weeks before. It's really important. So I say again, if you don't get it, then you just ask for the meeting to be changed to another date so that you've got enough time to be looking at that.

If you can imagine the authority I'm working on at the moment has 7,500 EHCPs. If you were going to amend those every single year, you just would not. There would not be the capacity to be able to do that. So that's why we pick transitional years where it will become almost the end of a key stage, so there'll be a change of outcomes. Remember we talked about the outcomes being key. Stage related that umbrella going going over. So it makes logical sense that that would be amended before secondary school. Amended for pfa, you know, amended if you're going into junior school. So unless there is a significant change so for instance, a young person that was able-bodied became wheelchair bound or there was a significant medical issue that meant that educational needs changed dramatically then you may expect not to see an amendment. So if you had amendments at year five into secondary school, you wouldn't expect to have any amendments. Year seven, year eight, until you get to year nine.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

42:08

Ok, unless that makes sense and I think you know, there has to be a, there has to be a triage of that system. What about if the school isn't meeting needs and if the child isn't thriving and the EHCP? When you go through that annual review, it's falling short and the setting that the child is in is not the right setting. What can the parent do at that point?

Jenny HooperGuest

42:31

So at that point it will be in a discussion as to whether the school can meet need. A parent has the right to say I don't believe you're meeting the needs of my child and therefore I wish to request an alternative placement. You can do that. Request an alternative placement. You can do that. It is often a struggle if the school say they can meet need and the parents say I don't think you can. That can be a struggle because the local authority will almost certainly side with school at this stage, because the local authority's obligation is to find a school that says they can meet those needs. And if they say they can meet those needs, then the responsibility falls to that school.

So thank you very much, jenny. It's been a pleasure having you back. Thank you, brilliant. Thanks so much. Bye-bye everyone. Thank you for listening Send Parenting Tribe. If you're enjoying listening, please take time to rate the show. Also, if you haven't already, follow us on our socials. At Send Parenting Podcast, we're on Instagram, tiktok and Facebook, whichever platform you prefer, wishing you and your family a calm week ahead. Thank you, you, you, you, you, you.

18:21