EP 80: School support for SEND children with Jenny Hooper

Please excuse any errors in this autogenerated transcript

Dr Olivia KesselHost

00:07

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this two-part series over this week and next, we're going to look at the journey of a parent getting the right support for their child in school. I'm going to be joined by Jenny Hooper, ceo of the Evolving Mind Clinic, who has over 39 years of experience in the field of teaching and special education needs.

01:06

In part one, we'll focus at the beginning of the journey, where you know you feel in your gut something is just not right and that your child needs more support in school, and we'll take that journey all the way up to applying for and being granted an EHCP. A lot to cover, but a super interesting discussion. So welcome, jenny. It is an absolute pleasure to have you back on the Send Parenting podcast. You were last with us with Dr Dolly for episode 75, looking at assessments for ADHD and autism, and it's been hugely popular. We've had over 300 downloads and had some really good feedback from our listeners that it was really helpful. So thank you Now.

Jenny HooperGuest

01:44

I'm back flying solo, which is a bit worrying.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

01:49

Well, you know. We did promise, though, in the last episode, that we were going to unpick what does a parent do with their child as they go through an educational journey and when they start you know, starting at the very beginning when, as a parent, you start to feel those little niggles of, ooh, something's not working with my child in education, and you get this. I've had so many people on the podcast saying you get this like gut feeling that it's not working, all the way up to when you've decided to actually go and get an EHCP or educational healthcare plan. So today we're going to look at that part of the journey and then next week we're going to look at the second part of the journey, which is after the EHCP. So we have a lot to discuss today and tomorrow. But I'm so happy that we have your expertise, with over 39 years in teaching and special education. I wanted to kick it off with just giving us a little bit of your background, and I know you're super passionate about this. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jenny HooperGuest

02:44

So I started as a primary school teacher.

02:47

That was my first passion, in fact.

02:50

Even before that I started as a nursery nurse many years ago, in working in early years, and I've always had a desire to educate, care for and nurture other human beings, I guess.

03:05

And so I was involved in teaching and I worked for 17 years as an English and performing arts teacher in mainstream school and it was then that I wanted to kind of ignite my passion for working with young people with additional needs and I moved to working in a special school in the area and I worked there for many years moving up the kind of leadership pathway for looking for teaching young people with additional needs and what I realised was to affect change.

03:41

I actually needed to move out of education a little bit because my ambition in life is to create systemic change in relation to SEND. So I began working for local authorities looking at their strategic SEND policies, looking at how they were managing their SEND budgets and how they were kind of moving forward with the education of young people with SEN. So I have my own consultancy now and I work with local authorities and with parents. So I work with them in supporting them with the information that I'm about to give you now and support them on an individual basis, but I am passionate about things being equitable, fair and meeting the needs of the young people that have got additional needs.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

04:38

Well, that's super important too, because you then have both perspectives, and I think it's really important to have both perspectives and to be able to work. It's not just two perspectives, actually three. There's the school, there's the parent, there's the local authority and in the center of it is the child, and having that kind of 360 view, because everyone cares about the child ultimately, and I do firmly believe that, although that sometimes gets lost in translation, but being able to look at it from the different angles.

Jenny HooperGuest

05:06

It's difficult for parents to understand when you think about my consultancy, working with local authorities. But how can you work for local authorities and still be on the side of the parent? But actually I'm not on anybody's side. I'm on the side of, a the law and b the advocacy of young people with additional needs, and that's the passion I have is to be able to support all parties in that kind of educational journey for their young person. For whatever authority I'm working for, whatever parent I'm working for, ultimately, just as you said, the child is at the centre of that and what is best for that young person?

Dr Olivia KesselHost

05:44

Yeah, and understanding the law is so important too. So tell us a little bit. If one of our listeners is a parent right now who has a child in school and it could be anywhere really on that journey primary school, sometimes this happens in secondary school when you start to get that niggling sensation of this isn't working, my gut is telling me that my child needs more support. They're not thriving and flourishing, they're not having, they're not coping with whatever it might be the spelling test or reading or any of those things. What is your advice on? What's the first steps in that educational kind of reality check, I guess, is how I would call it.

Jenny HooperGuest

06:29

Well, I think in relation to schools, the first port of call is the child's class teacher. That's where you would go to first to discover whether that niggly feeling, that something you can't quite put your finger on, is real, or whether it's something you know. I mean it will be. It will definitely be real, but whether or not people believe that it's real is something that's slightly different. And after that you would want to have a meeting with the SENCO, the Special Educational Needs Coordinator.

07:04

Now, legally in this country, every school must have a designated SENCO, and that SENCO must be also a qualified teacher. So you know it can't be the secretary, it has to be somebody who is qualified in that area. And they don't necessarily have to have the SENCO qualification, although the legislation is coming out now that suggests that they will have to in the future. But they have to. They can take on that role with minimal experience really. So some SENCOs will be very efficient and very good and very experienced, and others will be learning on the job to a certain extent. But they are the person that you should be talking to if you feel that your child requires additional support at the very beginning.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

08:00

And it's through that journey then that you put the extra support in school where it is needed. Can you take us through, like if it is identified, working with the SENCO, how it progresses in the school setting from that initial we think something's wrong with Johnny. The teacher agrees with us. We've gone to the SENCO. Now what starts to happen?

Jenny HooperGuest

08:21

Okay, so what we've been looking at. And again, schools all do this slightly differently, but we would create something, or the school would create something called an IEP, an Individual Education Plan, and I know we're going to talk about that in much more detail later on, but this is a document which is required in order to measure the progress that a young person is making. And it's on a cycle called assess plan, do review. So you assess a child, you plan what intervention is going to happen, you do that intervention and then you review it and then you start the cycle again. So imagine it's that Johnny is not coping with his spelling tests. The environment is too noisy, he's not engaging in the learning. You'd make that assessment. The plan is that Johnny would do his spelling test in a quieter space with a smaller group of people. So you review that. Has there been improvements in the spelling test? Yes, there has. No, there hasn't. Ok, no, there hasn't. No, it's not the environment. So what else is it? And that cycle continues.

09:43

Now schools can do this, they can write these up in any way they like, there's no particular format. But if the onward journey potentially might move to requesting an EHCP, those documents do review documents and the education health sorry, the individual education plans culminate to be sent to the local authority. So they are evidence. You do want your SENCO to keep evidence of what the school is doing. It is very important and at an early stage. Sometimes schools don't do that. But as a parent I would be very firm and say you want an iep in order to be able to measure that, in order for you to be able to gather any evidence further down the line that that the hard work that the school are doing has been done.

10:41

otherwise you've not got that so it's not to keep a check on anybody. It's basically so that you can begin to gather evidence, should you need it slightly later on.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

10:52

It also makes sense to kind of be on that trajectory of making a plan, putting it into action, seeing if it's working and then, if it's not, then knowing that it's time to try something else. So it puts in black and white and puts everyone on the same page so a parent could request this or ask for it, or is it something? Yes, you can ask for it and request it. You can legally, I guess.

Jenny HooperGuest

11:15

And some schools will then put your child on a SEND register. Not all schools do that. Now, one of the interesting things is the SEN register is a group of children who, for whatever reason, are not making academic progress, and when schools have to submit their census in January and October, they have to put down the children that are on their SEND register.

11:48

Now one of the difficulties is every single school in this country has a different criteria for being on the SEND register. There is no specific criteria. So really, really, there's no, there's no criteria so how can you compare them then?

12:07

that's like apples and oranges and actually it proves difficult if you've got young people in primary school that then go to secondary school, because a criteria that a school in a primary level could be completely different for that at secondary I mean mean at primary level it could be they have to have individual reading schemes and spelling schemes and they go out for perhaps an external intervention like occupational therapy or something, and those types of interventions don't actually take place in secondary school. So that you know it doesn't really compare. But there is a SEND register and although you can have an IEP without being on the SEND register because if the criteria is that you have to have an intervention outside the classroom, for instance little Johnny with his spelling is not going to meet that criteria but he can still have an individual education plan because that would be good practice, that would be quality first teaching. We would expect that schools are able to support with that plan as things then progress, dependent on the criteria for that school.

13:17

And you can ask, you can ask your SENGO because, I guess one of the questions is what is the advantage or disadvantage of being on the SEN register? Some parents don't want their children on the SEN register. They want to receive that support. They don't want them to be on the SEN register. So a little bit later on we're going to talk about funding and there is a funding element to do with the SEN register. That kind of comes into play, the SEND register. That kind of comes into play. Some schools they call it SEND support and that financial implication is sometimes the reason why schools don't want to put children on their SEND register. It's very complicated.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

13:57

It does sound complicated because it's like you know I don't want you to be it does sound complicated because it's like you know. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it can be quite ambiguous or different depending what school or education setting you're in, and whether it's a positive or negative from a parental perspective and from a school perspective also sounds like it can differ. Perspective also sounds like it can differ. So maybe what are the positives of being on the SEND register versus the negatives of being on the SEND register from a parent's perspective, and then maybe we could look at it from the school's perspective, I think it's just the development of a journey.

Jenny HooperGuest

14:34

So if you were eventually going to be applying for a statutory assessment for an EHCB, the expectation would be that you had been on the SEND register for a period of time undefined period of time but it would give you more evidence to suggest that a young person has required support for a length of time prior to that. It would be unusual to go from an IEP for spelling to an application for an EHCP. You know there is a journey that needs to take place. The advantage for the school is just in terms of recording. In terms of recording that information to the DFA, for the census, etc. Etc.

15:17

All young people in a school have a notional budget for SEN support, whether you're on that register or not on that register. Every single child has this notional funding and in order to access some of that funding, some schools will require children to be on that register. You don't have to be. It's not lawful to put that in place, but lots of schools that's the way they decide to manage their SEND budget. It's very important that your viewers understand that it's notional because it's not ring-fenced and what that means is is that when that money comes in from government they don't have to keep it in rom-pops and say that's the same money. It is notional. If they have a young person that has additional needs, they know that they do have to use that money first before anything else. But because it's not ring-fenced and of course schools are making an assumption that the majority of their children won't require that additional support, that money often gets used for other things.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

16:37

Which makes sense because they're budget constrained, right. So it's almost a needs must situation. It's almost a needs must situation.

Jenny HooperGuest

16:48

And so that's one of the reasons also that lots of schools are struggling with large numbers of children on SENS support, because then they're having to find that additional money, even though they've received it notionally, they may have well spent it on something completely different, and then they still have to do that. But you know, that is the response.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

17:07

It's interesting from my perspective to think of this. So every child has this budget if they should need it, with no criteria to getting it, because obviously there's a lot of kids that don't have SEND needs. There's also a lot of kids that do, but there's no criteria, for you know, it's a bit wishy-washy to me. Do you know what I mean? It would make more sense, okay, if your child does have SEND needs, here's the budget. Make it bigger, because you're not spreading it out over all students and the temptation for schools must be huge in these budget-constrained times not to have completely cannibalized that budget and then, you know, be in a difficult situation.

Jenny HooperGuest

17:45

So to me it sounds like a lot of sense. I think the SEND support area is very confusing, but it is absolutely key to the support of young people with additional needs and actually, if, as a nation, we were to get the send support right, there would be far fewer children that would be requiring education, health and care plans, and that's the key. So where local authorities and schools are working to support schools with their SEND support, that is considerably more positive and that's why you will get some schools where the SEND support is outstanding and others where it's non-existent, and that's really it's a little bit of a lottery and that's difficult.

18:41

And actually what becomes difficult for the school is that you become a victim of your own success, because if you are supporting young people with SEND, then you get more of an influx of young people with SEND and then you upset the balance of the education across the board of the school. So schools are in a pretty precarious position. With that you get some very, very inclusive schools and they should be commended for the work that they do. But soon they become overloaded and then the sun isn't as good as it was, so that can be quite difficult.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

19:28

If you had a magic wand, jenny, in terms of this funding, you know, or if you could look into the future, what would be a better way, perhaps, or a different way, of looking at how this funding works and creates more of a balance within schools or more of a equality among schools, I guess I'm thinking.

Jenny HooperGuest

19:48

I mean it is a very in the code of practice it's very clear that the notional funding should be an amount of £6,000 per pupil per school year. That creation of that £6,000 is created by an algorithm which is related to the deprivation within an area the pupil numbers, housing, school numbers, all sorts of bizarre things which are way, way above my field of understanding, but I'm not sure even the DfE absolutely understands it all, to be honest. But it is a very strange algorithm, and that algorithm then actually creates what the notional budget is, which could be different from one school to another. So it could. I mean, I have rarely found a school where their notional budget is actually £6,000. And it can range anything from £2,500 to £6,000, dependent on this algorithm. For the actual school. However, the difficulty for the school is, irrespective of that algorithm, they still have to show that they have spent £6,000, even if they were only to receive three. So, whatever the algorithm is for your particular school, for your particular children within you in that school, they have to prove 6 000, but they might only get 3 000. So it is.

21:17

It is not fair at all. The system is not fair and there aren't any real moves. Uh, I don't think to to kind of alter that sense of support. Some local authorities are looking at giving um, giving all their schools the same amount of money, irrespective of of you know what the government gives them, because it goes to the local authority first and then the local authority gives it out to the schools. But it is certainly very, very complex and that sort of well. We're not quite at EHCP levels but we'll. When we talk about funding for EHCPs, I can bring that up again because that will give a bit more clarity to that.

22:00

So just to kind of recap, you're doing your IEP, you would expect your child probably to go on to the SEND register and you would continue with this assess plan, do review cycle until you are satisfied that progress is being made. If after three terms, three long terms, if after three terms, three long terms, one academic year, I suppose you are not satisfied that progress is being made, that is when you might start kind of upping the ante a little bit with the SENCO and saying do you feel we're getting to a stage where we need to apply for a statutory assessment? Now you can apply for a statutory assessment yourself as a parent, or you can apply through your school. It depends how supportive your schools are.

22:57

Sometimes very tired, overworked SENCOs will ask their parents to do it for them, and some schools, sencos and parents work closely together to submit the evidence. I always find that those are by far the most productive in terms of that assessment. Or you can, or the school can do it themselves. Whichever way, it doesn't matter, it's not um, you don't get there any faster by applying as a parent than a school. That's a very common misconception that parents get to the front of the line, they don't um, I would have thought the opposite.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

23:39

Actually, I would have thought that the school got to the front of the line. It's done purely on date.

Jenny HooperGuest

23:49

So the date that whoever sends it in, the date that that evidence or the date that the application gets sent to the local authority, is day one of the request for a statutory assessment. So it's really important the best thing, as I say, is to work with your school that you both you and your school are on the same page. You both agree that you've done as much as you know if your child needs extra support.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:15

I mean or how you know? What rights do you have legally as a parent if you feel that you know, because I know I've spoken to parents who you know oh, we don't have the budget for that, we can't help your child in that way. You know they get pushback if each you know, which it sounds like it is up to the school's discretion. But do parents have any rights in terms of the funding and allocation of it for their child before the state, before you go to the statutory process.

24:52

The answer could be no, but I'm just asking the question.

Jenny HooperGuest

24:54

I think in all of these cases, knowledge is power and this is one of the reasons for doing these podcasts is to give power to parents and give them that knowledge to confidently be able to say I know that schools get a notional budget for SEND. I would like my child to be able to access that. Yeah, can schools say no, absolutely, and it is notional, isn't it? You know absolute right to have that money. But it's about I think lots of parents don't know that that money is available. They don't know that it's there. So if you know, if you, you should be able.

25:42

The idea is that you would have a period of time where your young person might be on SEND support and then the issue is resolved and they come off SEND support and they come off the register. That's what we want to see. That's the point of it. Um, you do get those young children, you know, or children that kind of move forward to an EHCP. But the real purpose of that SEND support is to kind of catch things really early and deal with them and hopefully mean that your young person can then move on with their education journey. So I think from a parent point of view. It's about saying I am aware there is this, has my child accessed it? Even if it's about saying I am aware there is this, has my child accessed it? Even if it's not asking it's a. Could you show me where my child has accessed this? Send support money, because I think we should be applying for an EH assessment and I know that we need to prove that we have actually used that money. So you know that sometimes is better rather than the demand.

26:51

you know I'm sure you've done it, can you?

Dr Olivia KesselHost

26:52

show me Absolutely, and you know that's also brought to mind an interesting topic which I know you and I have discussed before because a lot of parents and the last podcast that we did with Dr Dolly about getting an assessment.

27:06

You know you have an assessment that your child has ADHD or autism. That doesn't equate to being on the SEND register or necessarily equate to needing an EHCP, and I think that's another point that needs clarification as well. I spoke to one of my listeners actually wrote in the other day and said you know, I have a, she's a SEND tutor and she has a parent who has a daughter who's been diagnosed with ADHD and she wanted to know whether or not she should get an EHCP for her daughter. And I said, well, is she struggling in school? To which the answer was no, she wasn't struggling in school at all, she was doing fine in school. So it made me reflect back on our conversation and I think it's another good point to highlight here before we get into the discussion of the EHCP for parents who have a diagnosis with their child of autism, dyslexia, adhd. It doesn't necessarily equ of one thing or another that do not have education health and care plans.

Jenny HooperGuest

28:07

The purpose of the education, health and care plan was mainly for young people who had learning difficulties, that were not able to manage the learning demands or needs of the education system and school. And so having a diagnosis does not equate to having an educational difficulty. It equates to having a different brain that works in a different way, and it doesn't necessarily mean whether you've got ADHD or whether you've got ASD or whether you've got dyslexia. Your brain works slightly differently. And if you are able to and I don't think we should say the word manage, particularly because I think it's about excelling, you know, I mean I think you can excel in school and with some reasonable adjustments you are able to reach your potential then you do not require an education, health and care plan. You require understanding of a condition that you might have, sure, but you don't need that for the development of your learning needs, and that's the bit that's really important needs, and that's the bit that's really important. So people think that getting a diagnosis will lead to an EHCP. It won't and it shouldn't.

29:34

So the legal test is may a child have special educational needs? It doesn't say may a child have a diagnosis, okay. So where it says may a child have special educational needs? What it means is is this child unable to manage, excel uh, progress um, through the education system? Is the learning overpowering for them? May may a diagnosis they have lead to or mean that they do have a special educational need? Sure, they they may, uh, but it's not a given. So so I think you need to always, always want parents to be aspirational for their children. We don't want children to be struggling and supported, but at the same time, give them a chance to be able to learn without the armour of EHCPs and all these other things. So that's very important.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

30:46

Yeah, and I think it is a common misconception. Once you listen to it and hear it, it makes total sense, you know. But it is, I think, a common misconception and, based on what we've already just discussed, if your child's needs because they have adhd, you know, and they're they need to have adjustments made, an iep could address the, you know, could address those adjustments without the need to get to an ehcp, because there's a lot of things that you can accommodate, to make it to you know, to, to facilitate learning within that brain, if you know what I mean and the juxtaposition of that is if you have a young person that has got social communication difficulties, you've got a young person who can't sit on their bottom when they're sitting in the classroom.

Jenny HooperGuest

31:37

They don't have a diagnosis of ASD and they don't have a diagnosis of ADHD. Equally, that doesn't mean you shouldn't apply. Yeah, so you don't need. Yeah, you know it might be that that they in fact do have an undiagnosed condition or not, but if they are not able to manage the uh, you know, the education side of their learning, um, then you know you should apply. So it it's. I think it's about keeping the diagnosis elements separate and thinking about the educational needs. That's the key. Are they able to function within the school day on their learning and how are they making progress? And are they making progress? Are they falling behind their peers? You, you know all of those things. Forget about the diagnosis at the moment or non-diagnosis, and just focus on that.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

32:30

Yeah, and I think the earlier that that is focused on. As you said, you nip things in the bud that don't then escalate into larger problems. So the earlier that they can be made aware of and then the school can implement IEPs and implement different plans for solutions, then things don't get out of control and kids you know, if you're waiting for a diagnosis for years before you do anything, then I mean the damage is done.

Jenny HooperGuest

33:00

No, I mean, you're looking at with the NHS, you're looking at, you know, two and a half to three year waiting list for that, and what are you going to do? Put a young person in a cupboard and wait until that time and then take that again. You know, ok, now we, now we can move forward. No, what are you going to do in that interim period? And that that is something that I work a lot with my, with my colleagues at the Evolving Mind. I work a lot with my, with my colleagues at the Evolving Mind, we work a lot on that holistic approach to finding strategies for young people to be able to manage within their learning, whether they've gotten the HCP or they haven't gotten the HCP.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

33:34

Yeah, and it, you know, it's it, it. I mean I wasn't aware of this. You're just not aware of it. Really, as a parent, you know you're expecting your child to go to school, have it. You know everything goes smoothing and swimmingly. Maybe it did for you, maybe it didn't, but it is a whole. You almost you need a degree in this to understand it. You know, and that's why you know, podcasts like this is so helpful and I wish I had, you know, had them when I was going through this with my daughter, because it makes sense once you understand it, and it makes sense to start small, see what works and doesn't, and then, as things don't work and things aren't making a difference, then you move up towards okay, we need more help.

34:16

And that's when you start to think, okay, do we need a statutory assessment and do we move forward? But then you have all that evidence behind you as well. You're not just standing in a vacuum which was where I was at with no diagnoses and, yes, something was wrong, not knowing whether or not to pursue an EHCP or not. Is she bad enough? Is she not bad enough? I don't know. But if you've done that and gone through that process, then you really know where you stand and you know that it's the right point.

34:42

So if a parent is, has gone through that or is somewhere in between it and they're thinking, you know the cogs are turning and they're, they're getting the school and they're they're getting there, you know they've got some question marks in their head that this could be the way to go. What are the next steps for parents? How would you advise them to proceed? You said you know you've described how you can do it by yourself or with the or with the school. I think it's helpful for parents out there who are at the start of this journey. Um, I don't want to share my experience because I did it totally wrong. So much, rather hear from you, I think. Well, I mean, it would depend on how to do it right.

Jenny HooperGuest

35:15

It would depend on which local authority you are in. So your first quarter, of course there's. There's two. There's two first things. You can do one you go to your SENCO and you get the support of your SENCO and say I want to apply, can you apply for me? If they are reluctant to do that, you go on to the local authority's local offer and you literally type in your authority name and local offer and you will see an area which says SEN or special educational needs, and there will be some kind of button, tile, file whatever it is on your your authority's local offer which will say make a request for an education, health and care needs assessment, an ECHNA, e-c-h-n-a. Ok, so when you do, when you click on that, you will almost certainly be taken to some kind of online form which you complete.

36:14

Now some local authorities are not yet at that stage and they ask you to send an email requesting an assessment for your child. It can be one line, if you want. It has to be sent directly to the authority so that they can start that process. And once they've started that process, the clock starts ticking for the timeline. The timeline is 20 weeks. So from the date that you send your request in and it's acknowledged. That's when your 20 weeks starts. And when we're talking about 20 weeks, we're talking about from the day you request the assessment to the date when you should receive your final plan for your young person. In between day one and 20 week dates there are several points of contact with the local authority where they make decisions and I think we should start potentially by talking about that first six weeks, which is very, very important in terms of that. So in the first six weeks you should send to your local authority any evidence you have that would suggest your child has special educational needs, not a diagnosis, but special educational needs. Now you can send your diagnosis documents because that is evidence, because that might be the reason why they have special educational needs. So the first part of the law says in the Code of Practice and in the Children and Families Act may the child have special educational needs. And it is the word may that works in favour of the parent and the child, because may is very difficult to prove. This is where in the code of practice it can be very, very grey, but it doesn't say must have, it says may.

38:23

And the second part of the test is may they require support over and above what the school can provide? Now, if you've not done that journey before that we talked about, how are you going to prove that they do require support more than the school have given? So what we would expect, and lots of um requests are turned down because of the part two, because, well, there isn't any evidence to suggest that they, the school, can't support, because the school haven't sent in information, or the school haven't got IEPs, or there's no evidence of an assessed plan, due review, which may or may not be related to a financial implication. So if you could prove, for instance, as a school, that you've spent your notional funding, that would prove that you're now going over and above what is available. So that's why that funding is important to understand for that reason.

39:25

So the local authority have to be satisfied that the answer to both of those parts is is yes, yes, that child may have special educational needs and yes, they may there. Yes, they may again we've got the word may require support over and above what is is able be provided, and that decision on whether they will continue or start an assessment has to be delivered to you by the six weeks. If they go out of time, the local authority go out over that six weeks, they have to do an assessment whether your child would read it or not. It's a little lack of understood piece of law there.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

40:09

Yeah, you have to say, yes, my local authority missed every deadline and it was kind of like, well, I thought it was just tough, tough luck for me, you know, uh, so that's interesting it's not in the six week one later down the line just in the six week one.

Jenny HooperGuest

40:30

They, they, you know they. They have to kind of go ahead because they can't keep going with that. So you will then, at the six week one, get a letter that says uh, yes, they agree to an assessment or no, they don't. At every point of decision you get a right of appeal. Now parents should not be afraid of tribunal or appealing. It is not a complicated process. There are many advocates out there that will support you. But it's not necessary. Depend on how much time you've got, I suppose, so in. Let's take a scenario that you've done your six weeks, they've said no.

41:11

The author, your local authority, then will give you an opportunity to have potentially a way forward meeting. Sometimes they're called next steps meetings. You should request a meeting to fully understand why they've said no. Then you need to apply for mediation. Now, mediation is something that definitely in the changes to the white paper that has been coming out, I think a mediation is going to come much more into the forum.

41:44

But you need to have a mediation certificate before you can go to tribunal. Lots of local authorities are doing so many mediations. No surprise that they're just giving their mediation certificates out to parents. So if you've had a way forward meeting or a next steps meeting or some kind of meeting with the authority and that has been unsuccessful, then the likelihood of mediation being successful is minimal. So you might as well get your certificate and move towards tribunal.

42:17

However, if you can get a meeting with the local authority, they can overturn it really really quickly. If sometimes it's because there is a lack of evidence, you know if your school haven't responded on time or um, you know they've only done one cycle of assess plan, do review and it's you know you've got to be able to. You know the schools have got to show what they've done and we have to hold our schools and parents have to hold their schools accountable for sending that information. So after the mediation, you get your certificate. If you feel that you need to take it to tribunal and bear in mind those two bits of law that I just told you are very, very thin. 96%, I think it is. It could be even a bit higher than that 96 of parents that go to a tribunal for a refusal to assess are successful, because it's really difficult to prove that a child wouldn't need an assessment.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

43:22

So it's and and you you've said that you can you know you can get an advocate to to represent you or you can do it yourself. So you're you are and it doesn't matter. Either way, you're still going to be have a 96 success rate because of the kind of yeah low threshold in law for this. So that's also important from a cost perspective for parents, who you know are afraid to fight this alone.

Jenny HooperGuest

43:49

I would say please, please, don't get a solicitor. You don't need a solicitor. It'll cost you a lot of money and it is not necessary. Ok, if you've got a really complex tribunal about placement much further down the line, then fine, but you really, really don't need it and I think it's pretty. I find it a bit upsetting when I hear that parents have spent thousands and thousands of pounds on solicitors when actually it's called a SEND35 form. When actually it's called a SEND35 form, which you literally go. You know, you just go onto the tribunal website. The SEND35 form is there. You put in all the details of your child you know not complicated things and it's basically all the evidence that you've given to the authority and you send it off by email and that's it. The onus is then on the local authorities. The onus is not on you as a parent, the onus is on the local authority to push that forward and to resolve that tribunal, because that tribunal will go ahead whether they respond appropriately or not. But it is not necessary. You know it really isn't.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

45:03

That's a really great piece of advice and, again, wish I'd had that before. Uh, I actually we got approved for for this, we got approved for the for the assessment, so that wasn't an issue. But I know of other parents who have spent a lot of money just even at that stage and it, it, it keeps growing that that that bill, if you do, uh, use a solicitor, so after the tribunal, or if you're accepted after the six weeks, what happens next, the next period?

Jenny HooperGuest

45:27

of time. From six weeks to week 16 is the assessment stage and during that time the local authority will consider reports that you may have, but also they will send their own educational, psychologist and or any other professionals that are requested by the parent and are necessary. Now I would say here that it's important for parents to understand that there are many children that don't require reports from everybody. They don't need, they don't necessarily need a speech and language report or an assessment. They don't necessarily need an OT assessment. And I think that one of the reasons, if I can be honest with you, that the system is getting clogged up quite a lot is because we're making a lot of requests for assessments where children it's not necessary for children if your child has never had a speech and language issue, particularly and an in-depth speech and language assessment for an EHCP is not necessary if they don't have any speech difficulties, then why would you? Why? Why ask for that assessment? That's it's. It's not going to add to your plan if your young person doesn't need it. Now, admittedly, there are young people with ASD that need social communication assessments, which would come from a speech and language therapist, or they might need sensory integration work, which might come from an OT specialist. But just think carefully and try to work with your local authority to say, you know, ok, we don't need that, but we do need this Because sometimes I think that the system struggles to deal with the capacity when all that's going to happen is in an OT assessment.

47:20

The OT is going to say, well, why is this? This young child has not got any difficulties with OT. Why am I doing an assessment for them? That's not necessary. So during that period, from week six to week 16, all reports come into the local authority and at that time you should be communicating with your send support worker and that will be, should be. They should be introduced to you at week six when they say, yes, we're going to do the assessment and it's going to be I don't know, joe blogs, there's your case worker, coordinator, whatever your local authority calls them, and you should expect communication back and forth. And I know that that is often limited and I know I mean.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

48:10

I have to say that it has not been my experience, you know. I think I've had like five or six. I've had numerous different. I mean, I didn't know. You know one person was leaving, one person was coming, never knew who it was, and you know. Just to take a step back here also, you know my daughter did have speech and language issues.

48:28

They decided not to give us that kind of assessment and I was advised to actually get private reports as well as the reports. That actually the only report. They did OT and they did physical therapy because of other needs and ed psych. But I was recommended to do my own reports as well. They did OT and they did physical therapy because of other needs and and Ed psych. But I was recommended to do my own reports as well and I'm glad that I did, because the reports that came from the local authority were very vanilla, shall I call it.

48:58

And then there was there were no speech and language, which I thought, which, which is actually a huge issue for my daughter, was a huge lacking. So I think you know it sounds rosy colored the way you describe it. It's not how I lived it in terms of if you are fighting to get your child the rights that you want for them there is. You can't trust I mean, I hate to say this you can't trust the local authority to do right by your child or to provide the rights. This is my experience and other parents that I know of.

Jenny HooperGuest

49:26

So you know, I mean yes, that costs money, but I, I hear what you're saying, although I would always advocate for, for you know, we get into a world of the haves and the have-nots and if you have not got the financial capacity no, I agree to be able to get those reports, then that then you know. Then you do need to be more forceful with the local authority to do that, and you know what I would say is you only want to get the reports that are necessary for your young person to be able to make the progress that they need to go in and go into the plan. Yes, local authorities are legally obliged to accept reports that are private and they should be doing that and more and more particularly at tribunal, those reports will go in. But if you are a low-income family and you are not able to get those reports, then you need to work with your local authority to ensure that they are getting the reports they need. There is a massive complaint system within the local authorities and you should be. You know you should be using those. Don't be afraid to use those as well if you don't get, um, the information and and the uh that you need for that plan. So I, absolutely I get I, I hear what you're saying about it. The system is shocking.

50:48

Parents are distressed and upset on a regular basis to do with timeliness, to do with quality of plans, to do with lack of communication, all of those things, and I guess maybe I am painting it in a picture of in the best case scenario. This is what we're going to look at, this is what we would hope to and I would always be advocating for um, this is my expectation. This is what I expect it to look like for anybody. I appreciate it's not, but the work that I do with local authorities is to try and ensure that it's moving much more towards in that way. So, yeah, it is, it is very it is. It is difficult and it is a little bit of a minefield, but you know your child and you will know what your child, where your child struggles in the different areas that they do, and those are then the reports that you're going to um ask for and kind of push forward. So all of that was happening up till that week 16. And hopefully at about week 14.

51:54

Now, this is best practice and it's best practice that I just wish that authorities had a capacity for, the capacity for and B really pushed for and any authority I've worked in I've always pushed for it is a co-production meeting. And you have a co-production meeting at week 14, where all the evidence has come in and the SEND worker has written a DAD, a Draft Assessment Document. That Draft Assessment Document should be a document that you as a parent can look at with the officer there and say could you change this? Can we change this? Can we look at this element? And if that meeting happens, in my experience it's a much smoother journey from then on on.

52:46

In. Lots of authorities don't do it because they just don't have the capacity to do it. And so what happens is is that you get sent a draft and then you make amendments and send it back, and make amendments and send it back. But if you've had a co-production meeting and you should ask for one as a parent, ask, say, can we have a co-production? Because actually you can iron out a lot of the difficulties at that stage, at that stage, and then there's no need to keep doing the backwards and forwards and backwards because you've worked on it together, uh, and that's, and that's much more productive in terms of that.

53:25

But at that stage it's still not decided whether that's going to be issued. So we then get to week 16, when the document that you've worked on together is submitted to a panel, statutory panel, within the local authority, and they will make a decision as to whether they feel that this document would support your young person moving forward. And there's, you know, quite a lot of criteria in relation to that element. But there is also another word which is a bit flaky, which is the word necessary. Is it necessary to provide this support for this young person? And what you'll be looking at is, or the authority will be looking at is whether the provisions which have been decided by the EP, by the OT, by the speech and language therapist, whoever has submitted report, can be provided by the school using that notional budget, using the school's resources. And if they can be, then the plan will not be issued, and if they can't, that's when it then moves on to the last stage. So I don't know how much more we want to talk.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

54:41

Yeah, no, I think that's you know, there's a lot of information there isn't there.

54:47

There is a lot of information and there's a lot of blowouts and veerings off course during what is just being described as the ideal process, which, having lived it and have the battle scars and the PTSD from it, I can tell you it doesn't go like that with collaborative. You know people on board co-creating, you know that that certainly wasn't my experience or many other people's in it. You know it would be lovely if it did, if it did go that way, but I think it gives people a really good, clear understanding of what should happen. And then there's a lot of things that parents can do and need to become educated in terms of how you read that document and we'll go into that next week in the podcast that we do because how things are phrased within that document.

55:33

What is expected are so important then in terms of that funding that we discussed and in terms of what your child needs and if it's too vanilla and too which, as a parent, you don't really know. I had to learn on the hoof about this, of what the words actually mean, and there's lots of organizations and people like yourself who can help with that, but you have to be really careful and make sure that you get the right wording and you get the right proof so that your child gets the right support. So I think we've given a really good outline and and and framework and structure, and some authorities do it better than others and some people go through it much easily than others. You know Um, so it's, but I think it's incredibly helpful when you don't even know what an EHCP is. This, this is what it, this is what good looks like Um, and then how you can empower yourself Brilliant.

56:25

So I encourage everyone, and uh to, to join us next week. Thank you so much, um Jenny, for for taking us from that first step onto the EHCP, because I think it it knowledge is empowerment, and the sooner that you start to put these things in place, the better, because then it all, it all builds that case. If you need it which hopefully you don't you know yes absolutely We've got.

Jenny HooperGuest

56:53

we've got to week 16 and hopefully you'll come back and see what happens at the end of the story.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

56:57

Excellent, Take care.

Jenny HooperGuest

Jenny.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

57:00

Thank you for listening, send parenting tribe and a big thank you to those listeners who have rated the podcast, because I know quite a few of you have. For those of you who haven't and it's still on the to-do list, please, please, please, rate us. All you have to do if you're in Apple Podcasts, search Send Parenting, scroll down past all the episodes and then give us a rating one out of five stars. It will help other parents see this podcast and I know that I felt very alone when I first discovered my child was neurodiverse and needed extra help, and I would have appreciated having access to this podcast. So by you rating it, it'll make it more visible to people who maybe don't know where to get support.

57:44

Thank you in advance. Visible to people who maybe don't know where to get support. Thank you in advance and please join us next week when we pick up on this journey. From when you get in the HCP and what happens next, what if your current school isn't meeting need, what can you do? Wishing you and your family a good week ahead, you, you, you.