Ep 79: ADHD Advocacy with Leanna Maskell
Speaker Names
Please excuse any errors in this autogenerated transcript
Dr Olivia KesselHost
00:06
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode we are going to be joined by Leanna Maskell, who's an ADHD campaigner and coach who helps individuals, schools and parents, charities and businesses, including Microsoft and Disney, better understand ADHD to enable ADHDers to make their condition work for them and not against them. She herself was diagnosed age 25, but the road was far from easy. She was accused of cheating at school, forgetting all A's. She was told by doctors she was fine because she had a law degree, but she suffered from severe depression and anorexia throughout her modeling career and survived severe suicidal ideation. She's now on a mission to challenge the stigma surrounding ADHD and has delivered talks to the World Health Organization on improving global access to diagnosis and support for those with ADHD.
01:39
So welcome, leanne, pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast. You know, pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast. You know, as an ADHD campaigner, a coach, an author and having ADHD yourself, your passion has really been focused on how can you change perceptions, empower and enable others with ADHD to make ADHD work for them. You know, in terms of not working against them in life, in school, in work. So I'm super interested to have our chat today and I thought we could kick off with maybe you sharing with us a little bit about your journey. I know you were late diagnosed with ADHD in your 20s, mid 20s. Can you tell us a little bit about how that worked and how you got to getting an ADHD diagnosis?
Leanne Maskell
02:23
Yeah, sure, thank you for having me. So I basically growing up I knew that there was something different about the way that my brain worked to other people's, because I couldn't concentrate in class. But I just thought that I was stupid, and I think so did a lot of other people, and so we were all quite surprised when I got quite good exam results. But I had just managed to teach myself like all of the subjects in a really short amount of time. I went to university and I studied law and the similar kind of process where I literally hardly went to any lectures. I have no idea how on earth I managed to pass and graduate with a 2.1. And then I graduated and these kind of skills and being able to learn a lot of information in quite a short amount of time and do an exam and them didn't serve me very well in the real world and I got really overwhelmed trying to figure out what job to do, what what to do with my life basically would apply for lots of jobs and then get really overwhelmed and unfortunately became just really depressed and in like a really bad mental health spiral and it just felt like I was kind of ruining my own life every day. By the time I managed to go and see a doctor about it, I was really suicidal and the doctors kind of told me that I was fine because I had a law degree. They said, you're just emotional.
03:50
And it was only when things became really bad and I'd kind of decided to end my life that I luckily managed to go and see like a proper psychiatrist. But again, that was really expensive. That was like a thousand pounds, um. But I had no idea that it was ADHD. I just thought that I was crazy and would have to be put into hospital, uh, and that that psychiatrist told me that I had ADHD. I was like that's not a real problem, I've got a real problem. He was like, yes, you've got a really, really bad ADHD. And uh, he was all right and I left that call and went on a two week holiday and then spontaneously moved to Australia and so I came back a year later and finished it off and that's kind of what's led me to get that diagnosis. But it's been a long journey. I was 25 when I first had that call with him.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
04:42
Wow. So it's almost like you bolted from that call and that reality was it? If I'm, if I'm guessing and kind of ran away from it, was that a partially to do with it?
Leanne Maskell
04:50
Yeah, I think that I was very pragmatic at the time. I was like when he said the okay, you know you have got really bad ADHD. I was like, fine, give me some drugs. I was like, actually, actually, this isn't as bad as I thought it would be so fine, give me, give me your tablets. And he was like no, we can't just give you, um, you know the medication. He's like you have to come back and do another call and so I kind of was I was quite pragmatic about it, wasn't really that um it wasn't like it wasn't like, wow, this is the answer.
05:18
I was just like, all right, fine, I'll go back after my holiday. But, like, as I said, my um ADHD was so bad that I just literally went on holiday and then the next then I didn't go back and I was paying thousands of pounds for a partner visa or someone I didn't know so, and did you know much about ADHD at the time?
Dr Olivia KesselHost
05:38
other than medicate that you could medicate it? No, nothing at all.
Leanne Maskell
05:41
I just thought there was something for, like, hyperactive little boys, like naughty kids, and I knew that I wasn't naughty, I had law degree, I could concentrate when I wanted to, and that was kind of the problem and, yeah, like I literally knew nothing. But I think that over the months that followed I I think I just happened to listen to a podcast about it and I heard someone talk about rejection, sensitive dysphoria, which is the extreme emotional pain linked to a ADHD at real or perceived rejection, which can lead us to become suicidal, and that was the thing that hit me and I was like, ah, there, that is the like kind of light bulb moment. Okay, this is, it is what I have actually.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
06:25
So, um, yeah, it's interesting that because that's, that's like the, the lesser known criteria we, we all think, you know, putting even myself as a medical doctor, I had, similarly to you, thinking it's a hype. In fact, my brother was the classic hyperactive little boy. He spent most of his life outside of the classroom, not in the classroom, because he was so disruptive. So I never I didn't put two and two together with my daughter because, again, you know, emotional dysregulation, peer rejection, feelings of anxiety, depression and low self-worth that a lot of girls internalize, and it creates peer problems. Actually, you know, from as young as like seven or eight. You wouldn't, you know, you don't think of that as ADHD, but actually emotional dysregulation, peer rejection, it's a huge part of ADHD. So it's really nice to have you on the show talking about it, because I think it's so important to get the message out there, especially for and there's boys too, there's boys that don't present as that hyperactive little boy either, who are getting missed and not getting diagnosed till 13, 14 or later in your case, and you don't want it to get to the point where you're having suicidal thoughts and you are that depressed because then it becomes a life emergency, because ADHD is also associated with impulsiveness. So, you know, if you have an impulsive desire to kill yourself, it can become very serious very quickly. You have an impulsive desire to kill yourself, it can become very you know serious very quickly.
07:48
So recognizing when girls are younger, I think, is, you know, one of the things that I really want to highlight in this podcast, because often they'll present with mental health issues, which is kind of what brought you to the GP In terms of I mean, they do the same thing with older women too, with menopause. I mean, they used to, you know, mainly give us antidepressants before they thought, well, maybe they actually need replacement therapy Does wonders for the emotions. What would you say to parents out there who have daughters that you know? What advice would you give them? Or, you know, were your parents aware or was this? Did it completely come out of the dark? To everyone?
Leanne Maskell
08:23
It sounds like you're highly functioning functioning, yeah, very highly functioning on the outside. Um. So, to answer your questions, my parents weren't really aware. My mom did take me to the doctor when I was a child because I would always walk into tables, um and like fall over. I was really clumsy and couldn't listen, but she said, and she thought, and the doctor thought it was a build-up of earwax, so I had my ears syringed nice handy problem solution, uh and yeah, and they were aware as a teenager and as a child that I was, um, extremely in a really really bad mental health place throughout my whole childhood. But yeah, I didn't get any support for that.
09:11
And then, sorry, a question advice for parents of young daughters. I think I would say probably the most important thing is to keep them really safe as well Because of those things you described, described like obviously there's the internal emotional dysregulation and impulsivity which is what can lead to that five times higher risk of suicide for people with adhd um. But I think, especially with something we don't really talk about as much as the vulnerability that children, and particularly female children, experience as a result of having ADHD and particularly undiagnosed ADHD. Paris Hilton actually wrote a really great book about how she was sent to a kind of naughty child institution by her parents because they didn't know what else to do with her, where she was really badly abused. And I think I see a lot of that in the parents I work with and the children, because if they're kind of acting out, um, there's the natural inclinations to be like tell them off and to try and discipline them, but actually that is a sign that they need help. So what I wish had happened with me was that, yeah, instead of getting my ears syringed, I was taken to like a therapist who could have helped me.
10:28
And uh, yeah, I think having that mental health support is really important for kids and then really so important around um safeguarding and I guess that comes up education as well of of um. I guess it's in a different way sorry, I'm like, oh, thank you about it in a different way of like how, how friendships work, like bullying, like I think a lot of people that I know have been bullied, so it's kind of building that resilience and awareness and self-esteem that it's not about you, it's about the people that are bullying you. And that doesn't mean that everyone in the world is not going to like you and um and taking that within your stride and giving support for that. But also in terms of like, uh, people that might want to hurt you, probably dark, but you know, like I think a lot of like me myself I was like groomed. So I think being aware that these people that seem like they are really nice and that they're treating you like an adult because when you are bullied and kind of going up without that support you it does make you really really vulnerable to anyone that comes along and is like I'll be your friend and you think, oh great, this person's so nice.
11:35
And I think having ADHD again makes you really impulsive. You're like, oh, wonderful, cool, we'll hang out. And then um, and then yeah, and all of these kind of experiences compile on top of each other and I do think it's obviously like the ADHD at the heart of that. But people with ADHD experience a lot of trauma often.
11:52
So giving people that full-rounded understanding, being aware of that as a parent, being aware that, like often there's no kind of locking a child inside their bedroom, but more like talking to them and understanding what they're struggling with and helping them to see their strengths and helping them to see the bigger picture especially, and that just because they might not be doing well in exams at school, for example, it doesn't mean that they don't have like any purpose here in the world and giving them that kind of education about what kind of relationships to have and what to look out for and how to build trust over time, instead of impulsively trusting anyone that comes along. And yeah, I think a lot of parents I work with are just absolutely incredible and they want to support their children so much and that's such an amazing start for any child to have. Yeah, and you?
Dr Olivia KesselHost
12:41
know it's so difficult, you know, as a parent, because you don't know what's going on at school. So you see the behavior at home and you it's, for me it's taken, uh, and it's hard to pick it out of my daughter. She's 12. And you know well why don't you want to go to school. I don't want to go to school. My tummy hurts. I've got in Batigo because I'm vomiting.
12:59
Now, you know, and then slowly, slowly, getting to the nub of it is I'm having a difficult time socially.
13:12
You know nobody wants to hang out with me and you know when you and then when you unpick that, you don't realize it as a parent, like you know it's not, you know it's unpicking that and then getting the school to help you navigate it Cause it is, it is it is really challenging.
13:22
I think the statistics are 50 to 70% of seven to eight-year-olds with ADHD have experienced some form of peer rejection, and then it just gets layered on top of each other. And so there's a need to step in as adults and as educators and to really help them navigate their emotions, their emotional regulation, help others to understand them and to create that safe environment, like you said, safeguarding them so that they don't then become prey to people who are looking to abuse them. And yeah, I think that's a really valuable lesson which I'm slowly learning, actually myself with my daughter to be on the lookout and to be aware of that, because, again, it's a softer thing that you don't think about when you think about ADHD, that there's this huge social aspect which then can lead to a safeguarding aspect.
Leanne Maskell
14:12
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I used to hold my head over the kettle and pretend to have a temperature so I didn't have to go to school, and I think it's like you say. Just, I guess it's building that psychological safety where they can actually talk to you and feel safe enough to say because it's really hard to tell someone like you're being bullied or you feel like people don't like you. And I think, as parents, I cannot imagine how difficult it must be and how heartbreaking it must be to hear your child say that and then to talk to the school and to not be in control, basically, and to think your child is, you know, so, so wonderful.
14:46
So how can other people not see that? And I think it it probably goes down to those conversations that it's really not about them and um, and it's good to be different, and then trying to create environments where they can meet other people like them. Like when I've coached children myself, I've tried to connect them up in various ways, because I think it can feel like you're so alone. But then when you meet other people that work similarly to you, then you don't feel different anymore and you feel like, oh, there are other people out there. But when you're a child and all you know is school, it's really, really tough.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
15:19
Yeah, it is, and yeah, and it is finding. It's finding those right people and finding, you know, making you know opportunities for that and really putting, I think, you know, pressure. My daughter goes to a very good school, but they were like, oh, after Easter, after Easter, and I was like, no, you know, she, she was refusing, I mean really upset, and so I just sent them an email and said you know what? You want me to attend school. You know I'm throwing every toy out of my cot because I need your help. And then they did step up and they did.
15:46
So, you know, I think moms have and dads have to fight to make sure that cause you're not in the playground so you can't see what's going on, and and help those dynamics at school, and they spend a lot of time at school. So, um, but doing stuff outside of school, as you said, is that's one of the ways I look at it with my daughter too is finding happy places and people outside of school. So, talking about happy places with ADHD, another thing that you're passionate about, which I think is positive, is there's a lot of positives to having ADHD. So how have you, through your journey, kind of changed, and it sounds like you're on a mission to change people's perceptions and that stigma around ADHD, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Leanne Maskell
16:28
Yeah, it's funny because when I kind of accepted the diagnosis, I very much saw it as like a problem. And then I started working in a legal job and I was still experiencing the same challenges, despite and that's what I think a lot of people experience Like you know, they get diagnosed and it's like great, what do we do now? And even if you've got medication, it's like cool. Like you know, I can concentrate better. But this doesn't help with things like friends or having a life. You can't really choose what to focus on, and so that's kind of what led me to want to learn more about it, and I guess it's like my own ADHD, hyper focus, and like I wanted to kind of find out everything that was my ADHD to hack it to figure out how to get rid of it.
17:10
So I started writing a book about ADHD and I wrote it from like A to Z, so I just picked a topic per letter of the alphabet and understood it all.
17:21
But so obviously on my own journey, like, the more I researched about it, the more I read about the strengths and actually it really helped me to write it for other people in that way, because when it's just you, you can be like oh, my life is so awful, what, what, what? All these negatives. But then when I was writing it, as though other people would be reading it it's always a lot easier to give other people advice than to follow it yourself. But to be like actually they're. You know it's not all bad, there's some good parts of it and I found all the research for different areas and this tramp's research was really fascinating to read as well and really put me on this mission of, like you know, adhd shouldn't be called a disorder, because it's not a. You're not disordered, it's just that your brain works differently to how most people's brain might work in a neurotypical society. Um, but it's not a bad thing. Like me in my exams, like I could actually get a law degree without going to the lectures, so that's helpful strength to have, like in some circumstances. And then, uh, yeah, like the strengths, when I learned more about the research that I've been done, things like, um, my own personal really strong sense of justice, and that's kind of what led me to not go into that world of work at 21, because I could see all these people around me that were just so unhappy and I was like what do I just get a job and that's the rest of my life? Um, and I work in an office and, um, you know, the highlight of my life would be becoming a manager or getting a promotion. That's all in other people's hands and following instructions, which felt really depressing to look around and see all these adults and meet them and feel like this kind of informational chats and they'd all just say they were unhappy and I was like, well, well, maybe I don't want to do that, what else do we have? Well, maybe I don't want to do that, what else do we have?
19:07
So, that kind of brought in that sense of authenticity, which is again another really strong um strength linked to ADHD, and that's what is a really great, great and challenging thing about it, but it means that you're always very true to yourself, um, and you don't get easily pressured, easily influenced by the same things that a lot of people are, like money or status, and that can actually be a really good thing in our society because it means you, because those things don't bring you happiness from my understanding anyway, having achieved various forms of them now by accident but, um, yeah, those things don't bring you happiness, and I think a lot of people go down that kind of traditional route and find, when they've got their house and their family and their marriage, that actually what else was the point of life? I never traveled around America or whatever it is. And so having ADHD can lead you to live this quite beautiful, squiggly life where you just do the things that you want to do. When you understand the things that you do want to do and when you understand that actually life is open for you to do these things, you don't have to do things like everyone else. It's a really powerful compass because it can lead you to live your own life. So I think there's a 300 percent more likelihood of people with ADHD running their own businesses, and that's strongly linked to the strength of innovative thinking outside the box problem solving, which, as we see in a lot of leaders that have adhd like these solutions are really needed for our world.
20:32
And before I wrote the adhd book, I wrote a book about the modeling industry that just literally didn't exist but should have existed. I shouldn't have had to write that book, but it was just like a guide for people on what is modeling like, how can you do it without being incredibly exploited. But these are all things that again like like I kind of was just like why doesn't this exist? I'm going to make it so.
20:52
Having that impulsivity, also in a positive way, can be a really great thing to do as well, because it means we're quite brave, we take action on things. And finally, that self-compassion and the compassion for other people and so that I think all of in life our greatest weaknesses are also our greatest strengths, so that rejection, sensitive dysphoria aspect also means that we have so much compassion and care for other people, because we know what it's like to feel rejected and to be bullied and to have people not like us. So, from what I can see of the people that I know with ADHD, they're always going to be the ones that will make the extra effort to include someone and I think that's a really beautiful quality to have in our world. It can be quite exclusionary.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
21:37
It's true that the battle scars have make you who you are and give you compassion and empathy, which is a beautiful thing to have for other people who are going through it. And yeah, I think it's that journey of knowledge and then understanding your weaknesses and turning them into your strengths and accepting them as your strengths. I think also, you know people with ADHD, they live in the moment more, too, which is what I mean. All the yoga gurus and, you know, meditation apps are saying live in the present, but it's very hard for people to live in the moment more, too, which is what I mean. All the yoga, yoga gurus and you know meditation apps or say live in the present, but it's very hard for people to live in the present, but I think for people of ADHD brains, it's pretty easy to live in the presence and why not just do it right now? There's, you know, no time like the present, you know if I'm interested in it.
Leanne Maskell
22:19
Yeah, we have to do it right now. If Wesley idea, do it right now, otherwise the idea will go and I'm not going to do it. So once you figure out exactly now or never, yeah, and obviously there's a huge hyper focus that comes with that as well, because people with ADHD are said to have an interest-based nervous system. So if we're interested in something, we will write your book about it. If we're not interested, we will not do it all, which can be challenging to live with. But once you understand how to hack that for yourself and apply those things that make something interesting or hyper-focusable to other areas of your life, which is where coaching can come in really handy, because we can take parts of this structure and then apply it to other parts that are less interesting. And ultimately, adhd is connected with this 30% developmental delay in executive functioning skills, but that those are skills that can be strengthened and it's not a it's not a lifelong sentence of problems. It's just a lifelong journey of getting to understand yourself and work with your brain.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
23:19
Yeah, and it's creating that scaffolding and that's a real challenge in school. And you just mentioned the ADHD coaching which you do in schools. Don't you with teachers and then also with parents too, to kind of provide that support? Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Leanne Maskell
so with parents too, to kind of provide that support. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so I started doing talks in schools to give them kind of what we're talking about now, like explanations of what ADHD is, how we can show up talking to the kids and talking to the parents and the teachers, which are all very interesting experiences, all very different. I think the children are definitely the most well-behaved of them all. Um, and the coaching elements and the most interesting yeah, they, yeah.
24:02
They asked me some great questions like what's your favorite subject? Um, and yeah, and so that's the kind of training part of it which I wanted to do, because I see, as you say, the scaffolding in school. What I found really hard when coaching children is that, unlike as an adult, you're in very limited control of how much your environment can change. Um, if you're being bullied at school, there's not much you can do. It to make people like you have to see those people every day and I found that really difficult as a coach because I can't really be like, no, don't, don't talk to them and yeah, you can find other friends, but like, you still have to go to school. So you still, if you're being bullied, you still have to go and you can change school etc. But so I wanted to bring that training to the schools to try and do something to help, and it's great to be able to do some kind of advocacy here. Matt Hancock has got a bill at the moment going through parliament calling for teachers to be screening children and getting that training early on, because I think early identification can really really help kids and they don't necessarily need to have like a diagnosis, but just an understanding. Even for me, it would have been really helpful to like, stay inside at break time. Not God's side, that would have been a great adjustment.
25:16
And then the coaching. So I became an ADHD coach two years ago and I did this for a largely range of accidents. So I was scraping money together for therapy, which wasn't that helpful for me, um, because I was just going to talk for an hour and not and leave, being like what was the point of that. And a friend of a friend had become a coach and I was like that's not a real job. She was like, yes, it is, um, and I could do that. Actually, I help people all the time. And she said, oh, yeah, if you want to become a coach, you should get a coach.
25:47
So I googled, um, and I think they set me up for a call with one of her friends they'd just become a coach who was charging a huge amount of money. But when I talked to this person, she said, oh, we, um, coaching is all about helping you to do the things that you want to do and setting goals and holding accountable. And I was like, no, that's not my problem. I was like my problem is that I'm trying to write like five books at the same time and I need to do my law work. I'm saying my problem is not doing the things I want to do, it's doing the things I don't want to do. And she was like, okay, I don't really know how to help um. So and then I thought after the call again, I was like maybe there's someone out there with ADHD that could give me like kind of understanding. And so I just googled ADHD coaching.
26:31
Um, stephanie came up at the ADHD advocate and got that call was just the most amazing call I've ever had in my life really, because it was the first time I'd ever talked to someone that had understood ADHD. She understood the things like rejection, sensitive dysphoria. She wasn't judging me, she completely got everything I was saying and she also had worked in law. And it was just a really amazing conversation to talk to someone that understood me and my brain after 26 years of feeling so alone, like feeling like an alien and a kind of human body. And she told me as well that access to work this government grant in the UK could help fund that, which again was quite unbelievable, having scooped together money for assessments and medication.
27:17
So I applied for that and I managed to get coaching with her and that kind of led me on the path of wanting to become an ADHD coach myself to help other people in the same position, because I knew how powerful that was for me, and so I did this training with a company in America called Adka and then I started working with Stephanie as well as a coach, left my law job and now I work with lots and lots of different people and train up coaches myself to provide this help, because it's just been non-stop the amount of people that want that, want support.
27:48
So it's really amazing to be able to train them and coach people and basically what we do is work through what is ADHD to you, because it's different for everyone. Give them that understanding of the executive functioning skills and how they're showing up for them. Help them to understand that challenges and the strengths and all of the different aspects of it, like impulsivity and emotional regulation, and develop their own strategies to handle this and, I guess, to make that adhd work for them, but to to harness these parts of their brain and to actually build up. Build up the ways to work in life that suit them instead of things like time management or calming down meditation, which sound like lovely ideas if we could do them, but, um, if you don't come at it through an ADHD lens, it's not going to be that helpful.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
28:39
So yeah, my daughter goes Mommy, I can't shut my eyes. There's too many thoughts.
Leanne Maskell
28:44
I can't shut my eyes.
Dr Olivia Kessel
28:51
And you mentioned that now you're thinking about doing like ADHD champions, which I think is such a great idea in the workplace and in schools, where you you know some of my listeners might be familiar with mental health responders who are in companies and stuff like that to help with you know, to have that kind of resource in school, where there's someone, like you said when you spoke to Stephanie, it was like someone finally gets me, whereas when you spoke to another coach or to a therapist they didn't get you. So you need to have someone that gets you in the playground and at school.
Leanne Maskell
Yeah, I guess that's kind of the mission of the company is making as many people out there that get it as possible, whether they have ADHD or not. And we have trained up a lot of coaches and I think coaching is slightly different from training because you can give a limited amount of. It's really about the individual and so I wouldn't give necessarily like a presentation on what ADHD is and how it can show up etc. In a session and answer all their questions and give advice and things like that. Um, but the training part of it. So I worked with Disney last year and they were including ADHD assessments in their insurance and so they wanted a way to support lots of people at large, because I think they have a lot of people that might be neurodivergent now. So I created this ADHD champion scheme for them and trained up 250 of their mental health first aiders with ADHD coaching knowledge and coaching skills and tools like ADHD action plan and quizzes to help people understand how it shows up for them that they can give to to people there. So that's really now I've had that course online. So I say people can do it themselves and they get like a logo so they can signpost that. So that's what I was thinking of trying to train up other people, to train up other people to become ADHD champions, so that it can be as widespread as possible, so that that support and education gets to the people that need it the most. Because there's only so much I can do in a one-hour session in a company, for example, but if you can train up people to be able to support others, that's that's a really great thing to be able to do and just spread that education really widely.
31:05
We're in a very different time right now to when I was diagnosed. There's so much information online like and really helpful information that I think again, it's almost the opposite problem now, because it's so overwhelming. All of the information is contradictory. You can spend literally your entire life googling what is ADHD and every single symptom, human condition, like resonates and, but this is and actually really fires into our own seeking dopamine in our brains as well.
31:35
So I think people with ADHD are far more likely to be addicted to screens and computers, which is not a handy thing for the news, because I think we see a lot in the news there about ADHD connected to, like sugar and social media. So I wrote this book called the reality manifesto a couple of years ago to try and help with that, so I could get that out my head. I was like here, here's the phones and social media part of it, and it's not necessarily saying that these things cause adhd, but we do live in a huge world where all of our attention is being hacked all the time and I think people with adhd are particularly vulnerable to that. Obviously, given that they've got it's the previous.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
It's the I mean they're, they're, they're, they're tapping right into that. That high dopamine fix that rewards and consequence. You know it's, it's, it's a everyone's, no one's immune to it, but it particularly can um with the hyper focus, can you know? And it's tricky. It's tricky for parents too, because you know you don't want to control your children. You want to be able to have them learn their own boundaries because eventually they're going to go out your door. So you know, I often get asked that actually, how do we deal with screen times with our kids and how do we navigate this? And I don't have a perfect answer to it. You know, show other things that also increase dopamine. Oh, you have a perfect answer? Yay, tell me.
Leanne Maskell
Yeah, I wrote that book after becoming really overwhelmed from coaching a lot of children and parents, um, at the start, because they were struggling with things like bullying, etc. But also social media in particular, because screens themselves are not bad. It's the things that are on them that are bad, um, and, as you say, like you know, it's the things that literally designed to hack into everyone's brains. But especially people with ADHD are particularly vulnerable to that, and I genuinely don't think I would be here if I'd um grown up with Instagram, because what I grew up with was like Bebo and Myspace and that was bad enough, but like to think that these kids now can be contacted in such a huge variety of ways, and it's bizarre to think again about safeguarding how.
33:40
I grew up in the world of MSN, where it's like be careful of strangers on the internet, but now we literally I mean, you have never met in real life. Or like I work with people in my company that I've never met in real life, they're all strangers. And um no, like dating apps. They literally connect you with strangers to meet up in real life, and so we live in such a complicated alternative world now and and playing games.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
My daughter, like I, keep putting up parental you know blocks so that people, you know, on roblox they can come in and start, you know, and then she, just she's clever, she, she, she signs herself up as a different user. So it's like a constant, like I'm like it's not safe, you know, yeah, yeah, so yeah tell me how to solve this problem yeah, that's why I wanted to do this book.
Leanne MaskellHost
Um, I probably I haven't really had the brain space to promote it as much as I should have, because I just wanted to write it, get it out there and there it is. Because I grew up also modeling from the age of 13, so I grew up kind of in this world of um, like having eating disorders and seeing myself in magazines and ways I did not look in real life. So I kind of had this fake version of Instagram for myself so I could really get what a lot of these kids were going through, because they do. Their phone literally now shows them like how they could look better. When you pick it up to look at, to unlock it, it's like you see this picture of yourself from five years ago. You could look better if you did this and this um.
34:58
And yeah, as you say, well, the kids are clever, but also the the apps on that are really clever and they I genuinely believe that children that growing up today they speak a very different language from other generations, like my friend's baby who can't talk, can pick up her phone and pretend to have a conversation on the phone. He knows what, he knows how to use the phone but he doesn't know how to talk, like it's completely bizarre. And if you think of the phone, also like a baby um picking up the phone, they can press a button and things happen within milliseconds. And then if you think of the real world, where it's like having a conversation with someone or going somewhere, it takes a lot more time or like, and I don't know, but I would imagine this is what creates a lot of the challenges around um, pathological demand avoidance, where it's like any demand. It's like no, I'm not doing that. But if you've actually grown up with the, with the screens and the computers and all of the things that understand you really well in this world where, like you know, everyone seems to get you and you just feel happy and I experience this myself now it's a real challenge for me because talking online is so much easier than talking in real life, because that involves a lot more vulnerability and it is an addiction. It's a really, really bad addiction that no one wants to talk about. That no one wants to talk about.
36:16
And I think what is particularly hard about this is that parents themselves are addicted to phones many of us, because we all are living in this world where actually the phone is a really handy tool for all of us. So it's a hard thing to be like stop going on the phone and then to stop going on the phone ourselves and, as well, we're actually even moving away from phones now. It's like apple watches and the goals they're making, god knows what else is coming and there's the tv, the smart tv, the laptops, the ipad. So it's like and I really saw this for kids during the pandemic where, like they were expected to be learning on the computer but even looking at you, now I've got obviously the screen up, I've got other things behind and tabs and notifications and so like, when we're exposing our brains to that constantly, it's going to like create a dopamine addiction. So my advice for screens and parents I think it comes with education.
37:10
So I did a huge amount of research into this um and I think it's the education of why people are seeing the things that they are seeing, and trying to build this like very open conversation and line of communication with your children, just in the same way that we're talking about bullying, because what they see online might be quite harmful. For example, like when I was a kid, I was always figuring out how to go on these anorexia, pro anorexia websites, which is so horrific. Um, god knows what they're like now. It's not like I wouldn't go on the computer to seek them out. They would seek me out, they would. And again, this is what kind of I find you and target you.
37:46
Yeah, yeah, 25 a day through a variety of different platforms like they give you the content. And that's a huge part of why I wanted to do the book, because when I was coaching children, I would talk to them and it's been like 12 hours on TikTok. And then I would talk to their parents and they were like, oh, they're doing dance videos. And I was like, and those dance videos, they look like cute dance videos, but actually what they're doing is they're reinforcing especially all of these things around body image, needing to have a billion followers and be an influencer to be valid in the world. Like a real career path, like um, because the videos that you see on there are really highly sexualized young, young people really. And like tiktok, literally um edits you without you even putting anything on there. So when I first went on tiktok, I was like why are all these people so beautiful? And I realized like it's got such advanced filtering techniques.
38:38
And, yeah, and TikTok is actually banned in China and there's really strict limits on that version of it, particularly for children. There's a Chinese app. So it's like in our government they were talking about this online safety bill, which focuses on content. But what is distressing content for you and me might be very different. And again, like, like a dance video, you wouldn't say that was distressing content, but if you've got an anorexic child looking at dance videos of super skinny people, then then that could be so, really, what I think the government needs to do is focus on, like, the medium, not the message, and look at the ways that these apps are really addictive. In particular, we see things like these buy now, pay later, things on, like ASOS and stuff where it's debt, it's getting people into debt. It might not seem like it because you're like, oh, I'll just pay this next month and yay, five pounds, but actually what it's doing is it's creating this habit in you and, before you know it, everything you've bought is is in debt and these things have racked up really really big theme. Um, so, so sorry.
39:39
To go back to the point of parents, I think it's opening that line of communication, the education around social media and like what they're seeing and why they're seeing it. Um, because I think and it's a really, really tricky thing to do, like when I've been coaching children around it they are so that, like one girl, she literally could not comprehend not having her phone because I was like she wouldn't even charge it up overnight because TikTok could convince her if you charge it up for more than three hours then it will break the battery. So she slept with it in her bed and uh, yeah, and like I was like you know what would you do if it broke? She was like it wouldn't break. Like okay, I was like okay, she literally just what would you do if it broke? She was like it wouldn't break. I was like, oh, okay, and I was like okay, she literally just couldn't imagine. And it is like because, if you've grown up with that all the time, yeah, it was like asking her to chop off her arm.
40:24
Yeah, exactly, yeah, no-transcript. You live without your phone for one day. Like I think a lot of us would really struggle because we'd be like, well, what about if there's an emergency? Or what if? What if I need it for something? And most of the times it's not an emergency.
40:57
So I think it's talking to your children, trying to empower them to make a choice around it and like being like you know how do you feel, around using the screens, like what kind of things are you using? Like I just want to understand it. And then trying to build education and for them of like how, what the content they're seeing is, like like these apps like instagram, they're not charities, but they're free for everyone to use, and that's because we are being um, we're the products, because the attention is is the currency. So, trying to educate them as best you can, have the open line of communication around what makes them feel good, how you can help them, um, to not use it if they don't want to use it. Because, again, I think it's a really, really tricky thing to do because, like you might say like no, you can't go on your phone, you can't play games and stuff, but then it's just going to make them want to do it more. But if you can try to have this coaching approach, which is like you know, how is that making you feel what do you want to do in your life? Like is spending.
41:55
I coached someone recently and like they were on their phone for 14 hours a day and I was all right, like, um, you know how much would you want to be on your phone a day? And she was like six and a half hours. So then, like six and a half hours is a long time, but I wasn't like what? Like I was just like okay, cool, like how are we gonna do it? So it's taking it bit by bit and recognizing that actually, the more you can help someone to build up these little minutes without their phone, the more they can be like, oh, this is actually. It feels better, like okay.
42:24
And again, I experienced this myself a lot with bullying as well. Now, ironically, on LinkedIn of all places, that I had a really horrible situation a few months ago, uh, with someone that was not being particularly nice, like trolling and stuff, and my dad's got some good advice which is, like you know, you can throw your phone down the toilet. If I close my laptop, it all goes and it's that reminder that actually this world that feels so real is actually just excesses on the computer and trying to have these really common conversations with them in a nonjudgmental way. And trying to have these really common conversations with them in a non-judgmental way. But I really feel for parents because I have no idea what I would do if I had a child right now. I would like to think of bringing them up on the mountain without a thing, but again, it's just not a realistic option for the world that we're in.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
So all you can do is try to give them that edge and then, when they leave the mountain, you haven't prepared them for life off the mountain. You know Exactly the mountain. You haven't, you haven't prepared them for, for life off the mountain, you know. So it's cause I think that's the one of the key things I had Dr Naomi Fisher, who's a clinical psychiatrist, on the program, a psychologist, sorry, on the program. She was saying you know, olivia, you can control it to within an inch of its life if you really want to, but then they're going to grow up. And then you, what have you taught them? You've taught them that it's something that they really, really want. That's been really, really withheld for only when they're good and whatever. So you, really, you have to. You have to.
43:43
Like with my daughter. I'll say, okay, you know what about? We put, put the stuff down now, let's put on some music, let's go dance in the living room. And then she dances, she gets so into it, she has so much fun with it, you know, and it's giving her that dopamine and it's, you know, she's loving it. And I'm like you know, wasn't that better than than than sitting on your screen? And you know she's like yeah, yeah, but you know, and then, and then if I bring it up later she'd be like no, no, the screen is much better, but you know, but it's but slowly. It's like drip feeding and saying trying to not. I think, because, you know, with adhd also comes oppositional defiance and anger and frustration and hostility when you tell them not to do something.
Leanne MaskellHost
So you can backfire as well and yeah, and I think it's kind of the same thing of the adhd actually is, um, you are the best model for your child, like they're gonna. My mom, like, lived on the computer all the time, so that's probably why I live on the computer all the time. But the best thing you can do is actually start with yourself so like like if you're not on your phone, or like if you're just sitting on the sofa, as they're on their phone, being like hello, hello, I'm done, you're dancing in the living room and she's just sitting there on her phone. She'd be like I like this kind of phone actually.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
She'd jump up to it and actually I say, if we're watching TV together, we're not, we're not allowed the phone. I said you know what? No, I said we either watch TV together or you can be on your phone and I'll leave, you know. And then you know, when my partner came by, he was on the sofa with your phone.
Leanne Maskell
45:17
Yeah, you're supposed to be watching britain's got talent, yeah, and I think it's that. Um, I think, with all people with adhd, understanding the reason why is really important, and I think giving people, and particularly children, like that education will help them avoid exploitation and being like, actually, did you know that? You know whatever? It's? Like, oh, what are you doing on your phone? Like, yeah, and I think it's just treating them like adults and saying like, look, I really don't understand. Yeah, I don't know what you're doing on your phone, but, um, I really would be interested to learn, like, what you're doing and you know, and see how you're feeling about it, and have these open conversations with them. Um, and to help them understand, like, the bits that they do and don't don't like about it, and like, what, what are they doing that is bringing them that joy and trying to help them create environments where they feel better off it, and to be able to see that difference. Um, like, I coached one girl when I was very early into coaching and she she was my first client actually and so she wanted to study, she needed to study for her exams, but obviously she was on her phone all the time and my instinct was like just put your phone outside the room.
46:19
And she was like, no, I don't want to do that. And then, um, over time we built the habit where it did end up getting put outside the room. But first of all it started with like, just okay, just put it over there on the other side of the room or don't pick it up. And then every week she came back and she ended up like picking up the phone or whatever it is. So it was really about her to see that. So I don't know if I had a child, you could do something like hey, let's have a competition of who can not go on their phone the longest, or like let's try and spend an hour we're gonna have, like any competition.
46:52
It's a fantastic idea novelty, interest, adhd, um, which is why I think adhd is really the cure for the whole world, because it's like, actually these are the things that we're all like being attacked in in this way. So understanding how your brain works is really, really important to be able to fight back against, like the world's best behavioral engineers that have designed these apps to hook you in the opener, to go on an email and it will suck you into social media and before you know, you've bought like candlesticks that you didn't need, that are going to arrive tomorrow. Okay, I just didn't mean to do that, but I guess that's where we're at right now. Yeah, and then it kind of once you begin to realize, like how you're being exploited by the god linkedin, like it will show me, um, things it knows will annoy me and upset me, and, um, even when I've logged off for a few days and I'll go back on, I'll see just these particular topics at the top of a page, and it's because it, and so my instinct is like I must reply back immediately, but then then I'll see. Actually this post was from like a week ago, so there's no huge urgent rush to do so, but it's just being able to take a little bit of space, like even if that is literally one minute in the morning, like a big thing that I did was try to go to the bathroom in the morning before I pick up my phone, which sounds so simple and so obvious. Obvious, but then I was realizing how difficult it was. Because it was so ingrained in me to pick up that phone. I'll buy an alarm clock. That is my number one advice for literally anyone in the world have an alarm clock instead of your phone, because then you're not literally opening your phone and all of the messages, emails, like all of the bombardment on your brain first thing in the morning, which is really hard to get off.
48:33
But like, the more time that you can build I guess it is like self um regulation and self control is it is like these executive functioning muscles um the better that you'll be able to understand like cool, how do I feel going on that and off it. And I guess the parents are starting with that and then being able to share that with your children. But they do really see what, what other people do around them and again, it's hard. It's hard to go in it from the from the angle of like stop going on your phone because they're like no, you're horrible and you don't understand me and my phone is important and all my friends are on there, blah, blah, blah. But the more that you can create these environments, which is like cool, I'm actually having a day off my phone and it's really good and I feel so much better. And like, do you want to go for a walk? Or how do you feel about your phone? Like, how do you feel you know? What is it like talking? What apps are you using these days? Like TikTok, cool, okay, try and look at that TikTok.
49:23
Whenever I've coached children, they don't know, like, what they're interested in. They have no life. And they're saying I'm like, okay, what does your TikTok show you? And it literally knows them better than they know themselves and it's absolutely insane. But like that's a really good entry point. And then, even if you can get them to show you that you can see what kind of content they're being showed and the things like, um, yeah, like because TikTok and all social media, it needs to keep you hooked, so it doesn't show you like nice puppy videos, it shows you like things that are going to make you, um, emotionally dysregulated on purpose to keep you logging back on scrolling, so if you can see what that is, then you can understand what your child in my in particular, might be struggling with, what they're interested in, and then you can use that information to help them, um, to live a happy life.
50:10
But I really respect you all, god, hard enough for myself. I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing to anyone that you're like, yeah, but you don't understand much. I'm sorry. This is just what I've known as a personal phone addict myself and like as someone that really grew up, um, very addicted to like phones, laptops, body image, mental health all of these things and experiencing in this world as a teenager and like favorite called like things like self-harm. Just, there's so much information on the internet and it's not information anymore now it's like guidance and it literally seeks you out personally 20 hours a day and again, we're literally all in this together like we talk about children, but actually like literally every single adult out there is also living in this world. So hope it helps. No, and I think you know those are no, I think.
Dr Olivia Kessel
I think it does help and I think it's you know there is no, it's it's getting that understanding, it's getting that buy-in that it's not the panacea, that it is and, you know, having that sense of self-worth and justice that you can see your child can learn what it's actually doing to them, what the benefits are, what the negatives are when it's to be used, when it's not to be used, and to have those open conversations and, as you say, it can be used to actually facilitate having a window into your child's mind and also having an opportunity for you to learn about things. Talk about things that are, with or without, social media still going to be out there, there's still going to be anorexia, there's still going to be mental health issues, Even if all of social media disappeared. Those are all issues that children and adults go through. And very interesting point about China because really interesting that they've sold it all around the world and they don't let their children get exposed to it.
Leanne Maskell
Very clever, I mean that is super clever They'll have normal children growing to adults. Yeah, I think the CEOs of the big tech companies are the ones that should be telling us how to parent children, because they're the ones that they don't let their kids on phones and stuff because they know how insidious it is and it's so bad because we can see I haven't got it.
Dr Olivia Kessel
I don't even let her have TikTok, forget about it. It, I mean, it's just, you know that's. I struggle just with YouTube because all of the those ridiculous videos that come up, which is just like, oh, another one. And her personality changes. She becomes a different person, um, you know so. And then I have to stop it. And then I'm like look at yourself now, so you're much nicer to live with now that you're not watching these. You know constant videos over videos over you know little snippets, and I said have you noticed that you're actually you're, you're, you're pleasant to be around again? And she's like well, yeah, she still tries and sneaks and you know to go and do it, but it's, it's, it's it's showing, um, yeah, and leading by example is another. You know we as parents need to. I'm, luckily I'm, it's not my, I think I, I'm too old, you know I, I'm, I'm too much of a dinosaur. So for me it's, it's just, you know, not that interesting.
Leanne Maskell
You're on a podcast, look at it. No, yeah, I think it's yeah.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
53:04
I don't listen to them. I mean, I don't, you know. And what's funny is someone makes my clips from for for social media, and she's a young girl with ADHD. And she goes Olivia, did you notice that? I took the bit out? In the beginning I said I don't listen to them. Hannah, I don't watch them. She goes what do you mean? You don't watch or listen. I'm like no, I don't want to look at myself.
Leanne Maskell Guest
I think it's so hard, as you just said there about YouTube, it comes in so much and that's what you can get them off. I would I mean, I don't have TikTok on my phone at all because it was like taking ice cream scoops out of my. I've never experienced anything so dangerous. I would just leave this for hours, like easily, and but then you go on YouTube or TV or whatever Like it's.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
53:47
We live in this world Netflix, even I mean Netflix hangover. I can get a hangover from episodes. You know watch 20 seconds. The next one's coming up.
Leanne Maskell guest
No, next thing it's four o'clock in the morning. Yeah, it's, it's exactly so. It's kind of, I guess, as a parent, it starts with you, with thinking like, okay, what is my relationship to? Not necessarily just screens, but I think also things like work, um, and I do really emphasize them because I think and I should also mention that I know that for a lot of parents, screens are really really helpful tool for their children. Like you know, we've talked about a man's child recently that is the only way that he can communicate he's autistic is by the tablet, like iPad, which is great, cool, use the tablet to talk, don't use it to go on TikTok. But again, like that's the really challenging thing there. And obviously, like I think there are really good benefits to technology, like that we can record this podcast now, like it's amazing and we can get other people to do different bits.
54:43
But I guess it starts with ourselves and thinking like, okay, like from what I can see, well, what I think is that the online world provides this, this kind of hope of like connection and community, but actually it leaves us all feeling very lonely and insecure. But we don't even realize that because we're like I just don't have enough followers or enough likes. I just need to provide the better content. But thinking like this world and when I've coached children, I think that like they are feeling lonely, whether that is like at school or whatever, like at home, like maybe their parents are working. Like you know, my parents were really not around me as a child at all, so this online world was a really good place for me to like escape. So I guess it's starting with kind of an honest, maybe a self-assessment or conversation with your child about, like, how do they feel about your phone you send them or your your kind of availability and presence and, um, letting and I think, yeah, like spinning those questions back to them and being like, okay, if I'm gonna, if I've got these things about this, like, how do you feel about me? And like making a collaboration, which again might sound incredibly idealistic, and parents out there that are like go get a child and come back to me. This is why I don't have any children. Um, but the, yeah, I think it's kind of that thinking okay, what, what kind of things do, because all of us feel insecure about something or other, and I think LinkedIn is a really good example.
56:10
Like that is a bizarre platform where people are so engaged so I don't know how everyone else is so engaged, because I don't really have much of a life. I have a boyfriend, I see sometimes, but I live alone. Like I kind of post on there like every morning at seven o'clock, like usually schedule the posts, but that is my job. But I see so many people like commenting and stuff. But you wouldn't think that LinkedIn is like a social media platform, like it's so easy to convince ourselves that's work and like the same thing.
56:41
I've seen when I coach kids and teenagers with ADHD in particular, like they'll be, like, oh, they'll talk about work, for example, or school, particularly these kind of like influencer type people. Um, they don't see posting on twitter as work because they're like, it's fun, they're like, but it's not, it's, it's not. Um, you know, if you're connecting that to your work, it's not quite work, but it's not quite something else. It's just working for free, um, and for kind of no purpose. I guess essentially like, like there's a purpose in it, but you're not being paid salary, you don don't have a job role, but we do make all of this content and I would also actually really strongly recommend parents to think very carefully about what they share about their children, whether that is like images of them or whatever it is online, because I think, again, we live in a very bizarre world.
57:27
But for me personally, like I grew up with my mum putting like my modelling photos all over her Facebook and it it kind of it's a very bizarre world because it feels like you you know you don't really have a purpose yourself, like you just exist as part of their content and their tv show that they're providing. But being really mindful about that, because that was something that was that wasn't like, really uncomfortable with, but I didn't really get a choice. Again, it's thinking about how these children are. Actually it's amazing, it's insane to think that like a child now could look back over their mum's or dad's Instagram page and see like them in their stomach, like, or them trying to conceive and stuff, and it's a really really bizarre world to be a part of. So I guess it's just thinking about all of our different kinds of relationships to that online world and how it's how it's affecting us and the people that we care about.
Dr Olivia Kessel Host
Yeah, and I mean it's here to stay. So it is, yeah, good luck to all of us. I'll be a NASCA, but you know I and and you know I think it's you know, we've had to learn it in different realms, although it's not as all encompassing. But you know, like with food and other things like that, and like your example about not putting the phone by your bed, having an alarm clock instead, it's just like not having chocolate in the cupboard because it's just so easy to get to. So it's distancing yourself, using it when you need it and realizing that it's not the real world. Um, you know, and and we have, but yet it is such a part of our world we need to learn how to navigate it and we need to help.
59:00
I think that's the key for me, and what I strive to is not try and control, cause that doesn't work with an ADHD on any level kid, it just doesn't work. So that's something you know, cause that's how I was raised. You know you, you obey your parents and otherwise, or you get smacked, you know. But in this world it's not about control with your children. It's about helping them and yourself on the journey, as you say, collaborating to navigate all of these kinds of challenges in life because of the social media world, because of everything online, and muddling along as best we can, and that's all you can really do as a parent or a child, and there's no guarantees. It's just, you know, it's a work in progress for all of us. You know, just like getting chocolate will always be a work in progress, you know, sometimes you win.
Leanne Maskell
Sometimes you don't. I think it's such a good mindset shift because it's like it's not you versus them, and it's a hard one as a parent, but your child knows much more than you about technology how to make a tiktok card I can't. The tiktok videos are just insane, like you know. But like they know, they know this whole world that you don't know, and you're gonna have to spend a long time immersing yourself in it to even understand the basics and by that time they'll be a new app out. But their brain works so quickly and growing up on this that it's actually impossible for you, and even if you did try to understand it, you would end up getting addicted yourself. So I think it's like having to work as a team together and being like I don't understand everything, but I would really love to be, to be here with you, in, in, in, whatever it is that we're navigating, and I think it's also recognizing that it is an addiction.
01:00:31
I think that it's really vulnerable and scary to admit that. Like you know, it's like don't put the chocolate in the cupboard. It's scary to admit that actually, like, so much of our lives are controlled by these apps, whatever that are showing us content to upset us or make us buy something or act in a certain way, because it's admitting that we're not in full control of our own personal choice. And I think, um, that's where the word adhd gets but thrown around a lot in terms of like, oh, everyone's got adhd these days. They're just addicted to screens, they don't have a self-control or whatever it is. But actually it's recognizing that these things are really hard for everyone. We all are really struggling with, like, self-control.
Dr Olivia Kessel Host
Yeah, they're designed. They're designed for you to lose your control, you know. So, on that pleasant but unpleasant discussion um you know, and it.
01:01:25
You know it's uh, but it's no, no, it's something I think everyone struggles with. I think is that's the bottom line and you know it's, it's. I think just controlling your kids screen time or throwing away their phones isn't, isn't, isn't the answer. It's about finding solutions and getting them to, to help them to, to, to regulate, which is hard when it's hard to regulate in the first place. So it's, it's uh, it's going to be a work in progress for all parents out there. It's a work in progress for me and my daughter, and I think I love the idea because my daughter loves it too If I say let's have a competition or let's do that, that's a great way to get engagement and then to really make it fun when you're outside of the screen time, because that's another thing.
01:02:06
Life is so busy that sometimes we don't have enough time to connect with our children and to make those fun times. Enough time to connect with our children and to make those fun times. So when they're off the screen, time is it's bath time, it's dinner time, it's get ready time. So the time off the screens aren't happy time. You know they're not. They're not full of joy and lightness. So it's, it's taking time as a parent to connect and when we have those times off screen time to make them fun. So actually, if you said, well, do you want to go on your screen time or do you want to go dance in the living room and sing to ABBA? You know, probably if I gave that option to my daughter, she'd want to sing in the living room to ABBA, honestly, you know. So it's finding those moments Easier said than done.
01:02:42
Now to end the podcast. It's been lovely talking to you, leanne. What three top tips would you give?
Leanne Maskell Guest
parents to take away as advice to them. Be kind to yourself first of all. I hope that this conversation has helped to show that it's not your fault and it's not your child's fault either. Like we're all just doing the best that we can with the tools that we have available to us. Like all of the things we talked about, like social media, it's not regulated, it's growing too quickly and it's not regulated, and that means that it's really dangerous. But it also doesn't reflect on your abilities as a parent or your child's level of self-control.
01:03:19
Um, but I think it's like all you can do is be kind to yourself and, um, remind yourself that if you care about your child, like if you listen to this whole podcast, like you're doing a pretty good job. You're doing better than a lot of other parents out there that wouldn't listen to this podcast. Like, yeah, it's a really and take it from someone that's really, you know, really struggled. Like and uh, remember, like the fact you care is honestly like the key, key, key thing you can possibly have as a parent. Like if you just care about your child, you want to do the best, like a lot of children don't have that. Um, so, being kind to yourself. The second one I would say is to just I think it's being self-aware and trying to be aware of your child as well. So as a coach, I'm constantly kind of acting as a detective, like picking up what kind of strategies work for an individual, um, like you said, like about the competition. So it's like, okay, these are the things that, again, if we go back to, like the screens, like personally I struggle with, or I my strengths and weaknesses are, and then trying to pick that up in your child as well, and again, I guess it's having those conversations of them but helping them to identify what they do like, um, even literally what they like in life, like what they enjoy doing and what they don't enjoy doing, and understanding the reasons behind that. Because I think it's that self-awareness that can help us to understand when we might need help, what we might need help with. Because, again, with ADHD, it's often because of that impacted self-awareness as part of the executive functioning. We don't actually know what we need help with, we just know we need help.
01:04:57
So, trying to get really specific around that and you don't have to have a adhd diagnosis to do that you can just literally kind of keep a diary like, okay, these are the specific challenges I have, or these are the specific challenges my child seems to have, these are the things that we've done about them. This is what worked, this is what didn't. Like, you know, you're talking about the school and um, messaging though and saying, okay, I'm not gonna take it to school. So then you've learned, like okay, that thing works, like that's something I can use again, or this, this is something I can pass on to other people. So it's kind of creating your own manual of yourself and your children and helping them to do the same thing. I think is a really good thing because, um, yeah, like, having someone to do that with you helps you to understand, like, what kind of life you want to live again. Like, if they want to live a life like on their phone, leave them do it, have fun, um. But I think if you keep that dialogue open of, like you know actually I know that you really love like dancing around, like do you want to do that again? Um, and so I guess, with that, like things like coaching can really help if you want to get external support. But the reason I mentioned about starting with you as the parent is because a lot of parents will come to me for ADHD coaching for their kids, but their children don't want it. So I'm like, well, rather than coaching someone that doesn't want the help, it's better to start with yourself, like, and you can pass that information on to them and you don't have to have ADHD yourself again.
01:06:12
Um, and the third one, I think would be to communicate, um, communicate with your child, to try and keep that open conversation going, because I guess that is what gets really taken away by social media and the online world is like, um, literally how we relate to each other, because it can become very different to talk to someone via text message or emojis and even with your children, and you can miss out on conversations really about about them, how they're feeling and and I do think that they learn that from their parents and the more that you can become aware of your own. If we go back to emotional dysregulation, like, aware of your own feelings and communicating that and taking responsibility for it and saying, like you know, I'm feeling sad today and your child's not going to be like, oh my god, my parents feeling sad, but like, the more you can and you can be like it's okay, it's gonna go away. Like you know, this thing made me sad or whatever it is, um, or like you know you said when your daughter was really nice to be around, being like it's making me really happy to see you act in this way, like I feel really really happy right now and it's and you can just leave it at that and she's like, oh, I've made someone happy and so it's kind of like I think again it's something that we do not talk about as a society emotional, recognizing our emotions and regulating our emotions and communicating them to other people. But it really does come down to that and I think for kids growing up, like the ability for them to to know, like, okay, I'm feeling angry, and not not to have someone say, oh, how do we get rid of that anger? But to just accept the feeling angry.
01:07:39
Then it goes back to the second one okay, what kind of things can help me? Like like anger, sadness, these things aren't bad feelings. And again, that's the kind of thing that the social media in particular, I think really takes away, because it really numbs our emotions. So by the time we get off them, we're just feeling a big mess of manipulated emotions. But the more you can communicate about how you feel and how your child is feeling. Having these try, I guess it's trying to have a conversation with them as much as you can like off off the real the world about and about anything like about what they enjoyed that day. But yeah, having conversations, I think, is a really important part of being human and connecting. That would be it. Hopefully it's helpful.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Long tips, good tips, though it's all been very helpful and it's been really, I think, insightful to have your views, and thank you for sharing all of your journey and your struggles, because I think it does help and parents listen to this because it makes us aware and, you know, to hear your story helps us to identify and see in our children when they might be struggling. So thank you for that and for taking the time to come on the show today. Thank you.
Leanne Maskell guest
Thank you.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for listening to Send Parenting Tribe. I hope you've enjoyed today's episode. If you have, and if you've enjoyed listening to the SEND Parenting podcast and you're listening on Apple podcast, I would really appreciate it if you could rate the show. It helps with their algorithm so that the show gets presented to more parents who might be feeling lost and lonely and need some of the support that we have at the SEND Parenting podcast. Now, to rate it, you need to go to the show, not to the episode, and on the Send Parenting show screen, scroll down to the bottom and rate. I'm thanking you in advance for taking the time to rate the Send Parenting podcast, wishing you and your family a great week ahead.
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