Ep 78: Neurodivergent Friendly Swimming with Nicole Martin
Please excuse any errors in this autogenerated transcript
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In today's episode, we're going to be speaking with Nicole Martin, who runs Core Aquatics, a leading swim school dedicated to teaching children of all abilities to swim. They have an autism swim-approved facility and are really committed to ensuring an inclusive environment for all.
01:02
Nicole's candid discussion around the importance of swimming and how to work around the many challenges that we might find as parents of neurodiverse children is not only insightful, it's helpful.
01:12
This is a must listen for any parent who's struggling to find the right swimming environment for their child. So welcome, nicole. It is a pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast to talk about making swimming pools and swimming lessons accessible to neurodiverse children, and I know it's something I really, really struggled with with my daughter finding the right swimming solution, and I know a lot of my listeners have as well. It's not easy, but it's such a key thing learning how to swim because it can make the difference between life and death. And I went onto the Autism Swims website and I was horrified to hear that kids with autism are 160 times more likely to drown than neurotypical children the same age. I was like that's horrifying, but I completely understand the struggles of actually finding the right place, so I'm excited to talk to you. How did you get involved in creating a swimming pool that is inclusive? Can you tell us about that?
Nicole MartinHost
It's been quite a journey over the last eight years. It's an interesting topic because every pool and every pool environment is different A from country to country, but even from down the road from one another. So it is quite challenging. And when you have neurodivergent children, they're all have their own little quirks so there's no kind of one size fits all, so it's doing the best that you can. But yeah, it's been. What a journey.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
So what started you on the journey all those years back into you know? Because that's you back? Because now neurodiversity has become more of a hot topic. People are more interested in it. That's quite a long time ago to start making those changes or to start thinking that way.
Nicole MartinHost
So when I was teaching children, you get all sorts of different needs from hearing impairments, autism, global development delay, from hearing impairments, autism, global development delay and actually I really just decided that this is down to me investing in my education and learning about these different conditions that come along. So, yes, we have our teaching toolkit that prepares us for teaching a whole raft of lessons and needs and things like that, but actually I need to delve a little bit further into these specific conditions and find out what makes them tick for me. Personally, I love teaching neurodivergent children. They're probably my favourite not that we should admit to having favourites as teachers.
03:37
Um, just that bond that you get with them, particularly if they're non-verbal as well, just that communication style you get with them, is actually quite different. Um, so for me it started, yeah, probably 10 years ago just being able to share such joy in teaching these children a life skill and actually seeing their parents faces when they achieve something that their parent probably didn't think they would be able to, and it's just part of having that patience and that journey and working with the parents to get to that mutual outcome which is ultimately making sure these children are safe in water.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Yeah, I mean I have shed a tear, as has my lovely swimming instructor, veronica shed a tear when you finally do achieve something, because it's not easy. So let's unpick this, because you know people, you know we'll put where your pools are, but you know there are people who will be outside of where your pools are. But what's important in the pool environment? Let's start with that. Like, how do you make a pool more accessible for children? You know I understand, like with physical disabilities there's different ways. But for neuroddiversity, how do we make a pool area more welcoming to children with neurodiversities?
Nicole MartinHost
so one of the main elements is the acoustics of the environment and something really small that we can take for granted as spectators. So we all want parents to be able to watch their children progress, succeed and things like that. But also, as brilliant as are, they can make a lot of noise.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
A lot of talking.
Nicole MartinHost
Yeah, having a good catch up, which is great, or answering the odd phone call, so things to minimise those acoustics are very much like a one parent per family or a quiet zone and things like that, because all of those little conversations, even though they're a whisper in a pool environment, that magnifies hugely. So by keeping quiet voice, quiet zone, stepping outside for a phone call or having limited spectators, that just reduces the environment but it also makes it a lot safer. So it's really important when you know water is brilliant, but it's makes it a lot safer. So it's really important when you know water is brilliant but it's also dangerous. So for children to be able to hear their teacher communicate with them, hear lifeguards, things like that, that's really important. And if those acoustics are too loud then that can throw children off as well.
06:02
Um, acousticsics is a real big one. Another one is around equipment and planning. So, for example, if a child has a hearing impairment and the fire alarm goes, well, the fire alarm may trigger somebody with autism that's really sensory sensitive, but then how would the child with the hearing impairment know that an alarm is actually taking place? So the planning that goes around emergency evacuations and the environment as well, can be quite complicated depending on pool design.
06:38
So yeah, no-transcript again it just depends on pool design and things like that and safety and things like that. You can do sensory lights, those kind of things that can add to for us. We say it's not just the pool environment, it's the journey towards. So it starts right from the preparation at home. But even sometimes say if there's a road closed on the way, if you drive a different way to the pool, that can throw children off, and because they've had that diversion and break of routine on the way, that can then impact them on in the pool and equally the types of lessons that we run at the same time.
07:49
So, for example, we would never put our junior lifeguard program on at the same time as our sensory friendly lessons. Um, because the shouting that's involved, like help and people simulating drowning, that wouldn't be complimentary. So yeah, it's not only the journey, it's also that environment yeah, and how can you know that?
Dr Olivia KesselHost
um, there's so many questions coming in my head now from this, but uh, so you know how can parents prepare at home even before they get to the swimming lesson, because I know even I don't want to go today, I mean, I've had complete meltdowns of not wanting to go swimming and she likes her swimming instructor and she likes swimming. But so any tips for parents who maybe have a child that's not so keen on going swimming would be great.
Nicole MartinHost
My biggest tip is patience and celebrating.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
It always falls back on that, doesn't it?
Nicole MartinHost
And it does, whether it's on the day or the expectations of what we're wanting them to achieve. You know, all children, whether they're neurotypical or not, have their own swimming journey and they all learn in a certain way, and particularly with growth, development as well, as that comes in, that will impact as well as any neurodiversity would do. So we start off with things like social stories. So we'd ask a parent for a photo of the parent that's going to be accompanying them the child, the child's swimwear, and what we do is we create a story that, um, the parent could go through with them. So we'd say welcome to our pool. You know very um targeted language, so it's not a waffle.
09:30
It's short and sweet, to the point. So this is our pool photo of the pool. This is your teacher photo of the teacher. You're going to put your swimming costume on and you know. So you're building that story and making the unfamiliar familiar.
09:45
Um, we also allow our children to bring belongings with them into the pool. So one we've had is a giant paintbrush, and when I say giant I mean giant. I've also had a little spoon as well. So we get all of these really quirky things. But that item brings a lot of attachment and comfort to those children and especially when we're trying to break them away from their parent, any separation, anxiety and things like that, to form that bond and trust with somebody else, those little things that we can incorporate, and we'll incorporate them in the lesson.
10:22
Um, okay, similarly, like pre-starting information, we'll ask for um, you know, what do they like, what don't they like? Um, for example, somebody said to us under no circumstances can you count, not positive or negatively. So then no number games come in or anything like that. And then we have one who really likes Minecraft. So all of the lessons are revolved around Minecraft in the language of how we communicate that. And then one swimmer likes to dance, so we'll incorporate some swimming strokes and skills into a dance. So they're still learning swimming wise, but they're incorporating other things that they love. So we're not saying swim one length, swim this, swim that very traditional. We're tailoring it to them and we're acknowledging every little win.
11:12
So it might be yes, you've made it to lessons today, because sometimes, as you've rightly said, that can be a battle in itself. Yes, you put your toe in. Yes, you've got in the pool. All of those little wins we want to celebrate. So, yeah, celebration at every point and a lot of patience. Some days will be better than others, some days it may be over stimulation, um. So we might say, right between each activity, we try go underwater. You can have 10 seconds or something like that, and they'll go underwater and it's quiet. If you've ever put your head underwater and consciously realize how quiet and peaceful it is, and that's what a lot of neurodivergent children seek the quiet and the calm. So they've still got some acoustics, maybe going on. Let them go underwater, mess about, might do funny faces, and then they pop back up and they're ready to focus again. So it's just shape-shifting the lessons, thinking about the journey and having the patience, winning and losing. You know it's going to happen.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Yeah, you know, there's so many lessons there that would be so great to apply to education as well. Do you know what I mean? Because you're personalizing, you're taking areas of interest where they, you know, focus on, and then you're scaffolding that to skills that they're going to learn with swimming.
Nicole MartinHost
So it becomes something fun for them, which is lovely. When you say that it's great for for us, I often ask my parents well, when we have behaviours of concern or those challenges, or in day-to-day communication, a, what do you use at home? And b what do you use in, say, nursery or school? Because if we're all using the same language or the same visual signs, that's they're more familiar and helps with that communication with those children, rather than swimming using one method, school using another, home using another, if we're all on the same sheet, then it's for a better learning outcome, isn't it?
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Absolutely. And so, you know, unlike your traditional swim lessons where you join and there's tons of kids and they're swimming laps, it sounds like you do a lot of pre-work with the parents to really personalize and to make sure that that's a good environment for the children and everyone being patient. You know what do you do. You know, I see this in. You know this is not just unique to neurodiverse kids, but also neurotypical kids, kids who don't want to get in the water, you know. So we've, we've done the storyboard where you know we're hoping that it's going to go well. We get to the swimming pool, the swimming suits on, they've got their giant paintbrush and they say, no, I'm not going in, mummy, you know. And then it's. You know, and you see how do you? You know what tips can you give when that happens with a kid.
Nicole MartinHost
It's establishing the reason why. Sometimes it's really obvious. Sometimes it takes a little bit of deep delving. It's generally because they're nervous or scared or there's a fear there in some way. Sometimes it's separation anxiety. So, particularly now, with children that were born in COVID times, that's coming through a little bit more now and sometimes they're just testing your boundaries and your limits as to whether you're going to say no, we're going to go now and give it a go.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
I've done something that no parent should ever do with my daughter, because I knew that if we left we would never come back. You know, it would just be a mountain too high. So I just took her and dropped her in the water, much to the horror of many of the parents all around the swimming pool. But you know, I knew once she was in there she would be fine. And when she got in there she was like you know, I didn't die, it was okay. But you know I don't recommend anyone listening to do that with their children. But that was, you know, me understanding my child, and I'm sure there's much better ways to get them in the pool.
Nicole MartinHost
Yeah, it's encouragement, either through toys or play. But you will get some stubborn children that really like to test you. I quite like those because I see it as a challenge and when I win I'm like, yes, but that's my competitive nature, being in sport, so it's that conversation. So if they're crying, obviously know, as a parent, when a kid goes into complete meltdown there's no reasoning with them. They can't hear you and they're just having that moment. So I'll stare, I'll say take a deep breath and use your big girl boy words, you know, calm down. And then we'll talk. And eventually, within 30 seconds or so, they're calming down and say, ah, should we talk now? Can you tell me what's wrong? And if they're not really saying anything, I'll say is it because you want mummy or daddy or are you scared? And I'll say, well, everybody's scared too and we're here to help you.
15:51
Um, sometimes it's actually the parents being there that can cause more of a problem than that, which is such a shame. So I have a game of hide and seek with parents. I say go and hide. There's a.
16:06
You know some of our venues. You can kind of hide behind a box or something so you can see them, but they can't see you, um, and then they'll show their face gradually as they get more confident. And then if the child says where's my more dad, I'll say, oh, they've just gone for a wee wee. They understand that if they go to the toilet they're going to come back. If you say they're sat in their car or something like that, they'll think, oh gosh, I'm going to be here for ages because they don't understand concept of time. So we gradually phase it in, um, and actually having a parent hidden and a child calm is way more productive than a parent visible and a child screaming, and it's not pushing them. If a child says no, you have to respect the no, so then it's working on those strategies around it, either with the parent or teach a child to overcome.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
No, I think that's that's. That's so clever. I mean, the great tips there, you know hide and seek and gone wee, wee. I think those are you know brilliant ways, because children do react very differently with people. You know you're, you don't have that dynamic, so those are really really helpful tips. And then you know, in terms of you know, parents who are wanting to get their kids to learn how to swim. I think there's also probably some expectations and you know, how long does it take? I mean, I'm, you know, I've just made it an open-ended thing because I have no idea how long it's going to take her to to be at a level where I, you know she can swim now she can swim a whole length, but I still wouldn't feel confident if we were to. You know, you know, I don't know how long she could keep that up for. So you know, how do you know how long it's going to take? And how do you manage your expectations as a parent with your child?
Nicole MartinHost
I think it's understanding expectation and definition of swim.
17:48
You know, I've had people say, well, they're not swimming on their own. And I'm like, well, they're three and it's their first lesson, so what are we expecting? Quite literally, that's my world at times. Um, and then others after length, and they're like, oh, can they swim now? And I'm like they're an agent, they're going up and down, we're about to send them to club. Yes, um, but swimming is very much.
18:10
It's not just stroke, going from a to b, there's skills as well, so things like treading water. So if you're out in the city, you want treading water and floating and survival skills and things like that, as well as a to b, learning about currents, things like that. So as a parent, I would always advise yes, we want them to swim, but then, if they're still enjoying it, there are other options, like your junior lifeguard, synchro diving competitions, and there's there's further to go and not every child wants to get there. But it's again having the patience with that journey and, you know, realizing that as they grow, particularly girls around time of the month, as they start to enter that phase, they get embarrassed, they get hormonal, they often don't want to go. Well, now there's swimwear out there that supports that and it's how we can work with parents to say, actually, they can still come if they'd like, and this is how we would manage it.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
So Wow, I didn't even know. I had no idea that existed. So there are, you know. Excuse my ignorance here, but so am I, because this is what I'm imagining in my head right now Are there bathing suits that just keep all the yucky stuff in? Yep.
Nicole MartinHost
So you can wear gym wear and swim wear that you wear whilst you're on your full menstruation period, and then you can wear gym wear and swim wear that you wear whilst you're on your full menstruation period, and then you can shove it in the washing machine and wear it again. So there's things out, like they're out there now, that can support those circumstances, whereas when I was learning to swim, that didn't exist.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Um, so you've got they even had a special shower in the school that you should use when you were menstruating in my school. I mean, who wants to do that? So that's uh, that's yeah, uh, that's, that's fantastic.
Nicole MartinHost
Um, I've learned something there it's a lot more inclusive though. So when we say about learning to swim, there are it's not just a to b, there are skills as well that underpin that. So when we teach things like you know, simple push and glide off the side, well, that helps you know the foundation and the start of every stroke. But then it also gives them confidence when learning like jumping in and diving, because you're still pushing off a surface, for example, you've got like a mushroom float where they tuck in and have their chin down. That's also a foundation for later skills like tumble turns. So everything that they learn at a very basic entry level has a point and a relevance later down the line. Um, so yeah, for parents it's just ultimately deciding what they want their end point to be and recognizing that there will be hurdles along the way. They might find a specific stroke or a specific skill challenging.
20:58
No sibling is the same. You know you'll get the comment of well, my oldest was doing X, y, z at this time and my youngest isn't. And I'm like, well, like the youngest generally isn't. You know they have very different journeys. Even third and fourth um children are not the same as their older siblings. So you might have it really easy with one and really difficult with the other. It's all part of the journey and it's all quite normal.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Yeah, that's a there's a great way to manage expectations and and and and understanding where you, where you want to get to, and and you know, for me it's like I want her to be safe and I think for a lot of listeners as well as I want my daughter to be able to swim and be safe because of and I think you shared a story with me about a friend of yours who who wasn't safe in the water, who drowned, and that's kind of inspired you and I think that's the ultimate fear I think of all parents is we want to make sure that our kids won't drown in the water and that, as their parents.
21:57
It's like I say to my daughter. I say when she doesn't want to go, I say listen, it's my responsibility and before you leave this house we're going to. She's dyslexic as well as having ADHD, so I'm like you need to learn how to read to the best of your ability and you need to learn how to swim and you know those are things that mommy needs to make sure before you know you're safe to go out of this house. So you know, I think, yeah, that's really important.
Nicole MartinHost
There's a lesson in that with education, isn't there that you know? They're learning a life skill in swimming and even the most proficient swimmers are at risk of drowning and things like that. We're just reducing that risk, like when they go to school. We're equipping them with reading and writing and skills like that. But anybody can be made redundant at any time and then it's how you shape shift from that. So it's just doing the best we can and giving that education to the different bodies of water, from the bath at home to the swimming pool, to the beach, to lakes. There's so many and water is so therapeutic and so enjoyable, but there is that danger to it and I think I hadn't.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
You know, I've been so focused on her swimming proficiently that I haven't thought about oh, actually I need to teach her about when we're on a lake. Well, because you know, it's fun to go out and be in the water in summertime not always in England, but sometimes. But you know, on lakes, in oceans, in rivers, are there courses that are offered to parents, or is it something that a parent should take on their own to kind of teach water safety outside of the swimming pool?
Nicole MartinHost
so we weave it into our lessons, but we also have a specific like junior lifeguard program so in that they can learn things like boogie boarding, pool snorkeling, cpr, first aid. We still do some distance swimming, um polo, beach safety, like there's so many things included in it, but we still talk about water safety and include it in our lessons. So when we talk about holidays we're not waffling in chit chat, we're including the water safety. So we say who's been on holiday? Or oh, did you go to the beach? You know we're not to a parent.
24:04
That may look like pointless conversation of, oh, you're just chatting about holidays, but actually we're establishing what exposure have they had to these other bodies of water and what do we need to build on and develop um with that so we can do things like where we're in a circle. If you link up with some friends and you're in a circle, if you stand and walk around and then lift your legs up, that makes like a whirlpool effect, like the pluck hole, and that's where children can feel the currents. So then we'll say so when you're out in the beach and you're going in the sea and you feel this kind of current, that's what a current is and that's what it feels like and this is how we swim and how we get to safety. Um, and every lesson, when we do things like jumping in or diving in or getting in and out, you always return them to the side. So after every activity it's that right jump in, go, turn, return. So they've always got that kind of mindset.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
You're building that muscle memory and that repetition to get them to return to safety and also not to jump them to return to safety and also not to jump in if they don't know the depth of the water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Really, you know fascinating things and where you find or I've just found a gap in my own parenting swimming skill set that I need to work on with my daughter Because, you know, it's those kind of circumstances that are important, Because there are so many fun, as you said, there's so many holistic benefits to getting out and being in water. There's paddle boarding, there's kayaking, there's canoeing, there's being on the beach. There's so much fun that you can have in the water, but there's also horrible accidents that can happen. So it's making sure that kids are prepared and then giving them the opportunity too. I think that's important because in England you can. You know we don't have the best of summer sometimes, so it's you know, finding it can be more challenging to find the opportunities if you're not going abroad.
Nicole MartinHost
That's in the water. Coloring is great though, like Autism. Swim, have a great resource pack where you can do coloringing and you can just have conversations with your children about that environment. Or kids love a tablet these days, don't they Like? Hop on YouTube and look at the different environments, watch, maybe competitive swimmers, and then watch. You know programs that are out in the beach and you know there's all of those different things, even programs like Octauts or spongebob squarepants that are all kind of underwater. You can have those conversations around water, um, or even in the house, can't you?
26:36
and yeah yeah, it's great that you can get quite creative with it I I love your enthusiasm and your passion, nicole.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
It's absolutely fantastic. So tell us, tell us a little bit about, about where the swimming pools are that you work with, and also, perhaps, where, if people aren't near to them, what they can do to find a swimming pool like yours.
Nicole MartinHost
26:59
So we're in Nottinghamshire, in Leicestershire, very Midlands. There's not that many beaches near us, but we still teach it and so, yeah, we can help anybody in their locality, although saying that we do have parents that travel as far as warwick to us for an urgent lesson. So if people are looking, they can ask, and if you're very further afield, that isn't commutable. And then I would say do your research and be honest about your child's needs. It's very much no judgment space, but in order for us to risk, assess accurately, place your child in a lesson, consider teachers, things like that. We need to have the honesty of needs, otherwise you're setting the child up for a fail and we don't want that. We want the experience to be as positive as possible from the first step forwards.
27:55
So I would be looking at the information that the swim school has to collect and we have quite a comprehensive form that asks about various behaviours, what the parents' expectations are, short and long term, the strategies to manage certain behaviours so we can implement those. So it's kind of the depth that the inquiry goes into and asking them questions as well. Don't be afraid to say, oh, this might happen, how would you manage those kind of things? So I would say that's the biggest part, and then the preparation for lessons like social stories and things like that well, that's brilliant, and I can't remember if autism swim had any resources where you could find pools.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
I'm not sure I can't remember anyway, but their website, their website is good they have autism swim providers.
Nicole MartinHost
Okay, so you can put your postcode in and it will show you anybody who's autism swim approved in that area yeah, and I know it's.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
It's specific for autism, but I think it would probably uh work for a lot of neurodiversities although it's called autism swim, it's all other abilities and that's the phrase as well.
Nicole MartinHost
I very much got from them and, like we don't turn them disabilities that other abilities a lot. They are superpowers and the way they see the world is actually quite beautiful and they are able. It's down to us to adjust our methodology of teaching and communication to get that superpower to thrive and not hinder it. So it's just that adaptability, um.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
So yeah, autism swim site is great for looking for your local provider yeah well, and I wish I lived closer to you because we would definitely be coming to your swimming club because your passion and your enthusiasm and your knowledge and how you've taken that knowledge and applied it to make kids really thrive in the pool, it's shined through in this podcast. So I really appreciate it. But I have warned you. If we can have, I like to end the podcast with what three top tips would you give to parents? Um and it doesn't matter if you've already said it today um, that they can take away from them, you know, when they're thinking about swimming lessons with their child one is patience.
Nicole MartinHost
That's the biggest takeaway, probably. And then three, um well, a couple would be kind of together like celebrating those wins and also copying. So if you're quite stressed and tense, children will copy that. If you're nervous in water, they copy that. If you're kicking your legs on your back, they're going to copy that. So be mindful of how that kind of parental pressure at times can influence what actually happens. So, yeah, celebrating wins, knowing that they copy a lot, patience and if I can have a cheeky fourth, I'd say the planning.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Yeah, because the planning and actually, if I could have a cheeky fifth of that the collaborating with the people who are giving the swim lessons, because it seems to me like that's where the magic happens, and that pre-planning and then that collaborating of what that child needs you know where there can be rough spots, what accommodations are made at school and home and how to navigate them. That's going to really make them feel like they're at home, away from home, in the pool.
Nicole MartinHost
Managing set of situations personally. But then translating that into lessons and the adjustments that I'll be making and putting in would be different. So it kind of works not only for neurodivergent but also neurotypical children as well.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
Yeah, absolutely, and I think everything that you've talked to us about today, I wish we could just, you know, take it and bottle it up and, you know, spread it into the education system, because, you know, that's where then really their abilities as you said and their superpowers can just, you know, thrive and flourish, instead of just trying to, you know, force them in to do things the way we always have done things. I remember actually learning when I learned to swim in South Africa and basically they had a rope that they strapped around my middle with a stick, with a hook on it, and I was dragged around the swimming pool until eventually I learned how to breathe after drinking a lot of water. But, yeah, I'm glad to see the world has changed. We don't do that right. No, yours is a completely different experience.
32:37
So, thank you so much, nicole. It's been an absolute pleasure, and thank you for sharing your passion. Thank you for having me focused on Duchenne's muscular dystrophy, which is an aggressive, fatal muscle-wasting disease that affects one in every 3,500 boys born. She'll be conquering her fear of heights and doing a wing walk while the plane is in flight. The Just Giving page details can be found in the show notes and can also be found on our website, which is wwwsendparentingcom. Wishing you and your family a good week ahead.