EP 76: Transforming Childhood Anxiety with the Nixon Sisters

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Dr Olivia KesselHost00:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we get into the episode today, I'd like to have a big call to action, If you are listening in Apple Podcasts, to please rate the podcast, which will make the show more visible to more parents. To do this, you just need to search for the Send S-E-N-D Parenting on the show page, scroll down to the bottom through all the episodes and click on a star review, one through five stars. It'll take you literally five seconds and it will then make the podcast, through their algorithm, more visible to more parents who might be struggling alone right now.

01:21

In this episode today, we're going to explore the rise in anxiety in children and the lack of resources that schools have at their disposal to really help kids manage their big emotions. We'll be joined by Emma and Laura Nixon, who've created a CPD accredited workshops to empower teachers to teach holistic tools like emotional freedom technique, which we had on the show last week we did a little bite size on that to refresh people's memories, to really help our children be empowered to reduce those feelings of anxiety. So welcome, welcome, Laura, and welcome back, emma, to the Send Parenting Podcast. It is a real pleasure to have you today to talk about a really worrying fact, and that is that anxiety is on the rise in our children.

02:08

A third of secondary school children actually avoid school because of anxiety, and that's a huge amount. Almost two-thirds of all UK children have felt anxious or nervous or stressed because of school, according to some new research. But there's a general lack of understanding and maybe even compassion around anxiety in children and in school and there's a lack of support and tools and ways to cope with it, which is, you know, it's becoming more of an issue that we really need to address, and that's why it's super interesting to have you on the podcast today to discuss how you've taken this anxiety issue and you've created solutions for it. So I'd love to kick it off by maybe just sharing with us. Why do you think anxiety is on the rise? What do you think are some of the causative factors? And then we can go into kind of how you've made some of those solutions to bridge it. So I don't know who wants to go first, but you're both welcome to.

Emma NixonGuest03:08

Well, why don't I start by saying thank you, olivia, thank you for having us on and thanks heaps for this podcast. It's so brilliant that you're bringing all these experts to our ears and, as parents of SEND kids ourselves, it's really valuable. So thank you, you're most welcome.

03:25

Yeah, In terms of the anxiety issue that we're certainly seeing in schools, I mean numerous factors really. I think Covid is obviously sort of mentioned a lot, but we feel that Covid really was the catalyst and certainly when we discuss this in schools, the problem was really there before, but Covid has sort of accelerated it. But there's all sorts of things within our environment now, our landscape, that is really working against our kids, I suppose. So things like technology, ultra-processed food, lack of being outdoors, lack of exercise, all these things are sort of exacerbating anxiety within Gen Z, as they call it. It's like a perfect storm.

Dr Olivia KesselHost04:07

Almost isn't it.

Laura NixonHost04:07

It is a perfect storm yeah, and I would add to that that because of that perfect storm, we need better tools, we need to be better equipped to deal with it. And there seems to us, when we've been working in it for such a long time, that there's a real lack of understanding of what an emotion is, what anxiety is. And in fact, interestingly, if a child presents with anxiety and you say, oh, interesting, what's that? Oftentimes they might say I don't know. So it's this kind of like, this sort of lack of tools and understanding to be able to help ourselves with it too.

Dr Olivia KesselHost04:43

Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's almost like a perception of oh, just get on with it, you know. Yeah absolutely, and that children shouldn't really be. You know it's too young for children to be actually experiencing those kind of emotions. You know it's more for an adult to feel those kind of emotions, which is not true.

Laura NixonHost05:02

Yeah, and I think you know, if you've got a child that might just allow you to push their feelings down, that can feel you know well, you've solved the problem because no one's showing it anymore. But if you like, in my experience have a child where you can't do that, you have to find ways around it. You have to start to understand and you go on a very quick learning curve of you know how to help a child with that and how to help yourself as well. So, yeah, I think it's in all of us and what we say in our, in our workshops and our understanding is that anxiety is a very normal human emotion that sits along every other human emotion. It's just when it takes over the living room that we have to start to sort of pay more attention. But anxiety itself is not the enemy. It's the fact that we have heightened states of stress and anxiety now and we don't know how to resolve them.

Emma NixonGuest05:54

And I think there's a bigger picture there as well in terms of we look at anxiety as an emotion, but it's that understanding that emotions are having an impact on our central nervous system and that is creating health problems in our kids. So it's not just anxiety in school. This is a real health problem and we know this now. I mean there's a cracking word for it psychoneuroimmunology which is the fact that emotions affect our central nervous system, which affects our health. So there's a massive big picture here. If we keep ignoring emotions, ignoring anxiety, then we create health problems in our kids, which is what we're seeing.

Dr Olivia KesselHost06:34

Yeah, it's not just something you can put a plaster over, and it has long-term implications.

Laura NixonHost06:40

Huge, huge, long-term implications and I think, yeah, in our one-to-one practice that's what we saw that people would come with all sorts of different health issues, from autoimmune disease to chronic pain, and there was an emotional element to all of it. There was an emotional regulation. So as adults, we weren't taught in um we were probably roughly the same um age that we weren't taught how to deal with this stuff, and it's now.

07:03

It's now causing health implications, health problems, and we are just passionate about getting this into schools and getting this understanding early, so that we can not only have more enjoyable experiences, more freeing experiences in life, not kind of trapped by our emotions and our feelings, but to actually have better health outcomes.

Dr Olivia KesselHost07:23

So tell us a little bit about that. What have you designed that you bring into school? Share with my listeners how you are tackling this issue of anxiety in schools, and you're kind of doing it on a twofold approach, with both the teachers and the students and, to a degree, the parents as well.

Emma NixonGuest07:39

So we've sort of packaged up between us. We've got quite an extensive toolkit of training and we've packaged all of that up with all of our hours of coaching into sort of fast, fun and effective and portable tools to use in the classroom. So we train the teachers how to use these tools and essentially what the sort of philosophy behind them I suppose, is that we view anxiety as an emotion. So when we look at that in its sort of simplest form, that means it's based up of a thought, a feeling, biology what's going on with your body, your central nervous system and then a behaviour off the back of it.

08:19

And I think most of the tools that have been used in schools or sort of historically the tools that we use, they focus on the thoughts what is the child thinking, and then all that we see, which is the behaviour. And what we've done is almost sort of switch that round. We focus on the feelings, because kids are still really good at feeling and they only last 90 seconds in theory. If we don't attach a thought and we really hone in on that biology piece, that central nervous system, regulation, what can they do physically to get their bodies back in regulation? And when we use that method, we're able to sort of move children from states of sort of quite high anxiety through to calmer states. I suppose that's the idea. So we help teachers to understand that, to give them the tools that then enable the children to train in this themselves. So I think one of the biggest things for us is that we need the kids to understand this and have these tools empower them to be able to get themselves out of these situations.

Laura NixonHost09:22

And I would say, you know, going back to a sort of how it feels in the home to have got to this place, is that if you look at that idea that emotion is a behaviour that you see and you I have a daughter who has ADHD and she has higher levels of anxiety you might see a behaviour so going to bed is particularly difficult for her, so she might become quite anxious, looking, she might display anger or just you would just notice the behavior change. And I've gone so wrong so many times with this by focusing on that behavior and talking right there with you, laura. So, yeah, talking to the behavior, I think all that social conditioning a child should behave in this way and not focusing on what's going on behind the behavior and seeing her emotional dysregulation as a skill she needs to learn, like something she needs to learn to be able to. Well, just, you know, it's just a lack of skill at that moment. So if we look at it, if I was to talk that moment, so if we look at it, if I was to talk to her behavior or her thoughts, so if I was to say to oh, I know, but you don't need to be anxious about school, it's fine.

10:32

Like what do you think? No, no, no, no, that wouldn't work. Talk to the behavior. Why are you being so agitated? Why are you so angry? That wouldn't work. And actually through, I would say now, probably seven years of training, understanding and working in a way to try to understand her emotions. It is the somatic work where I go to her body to help her body calm down, that has dramatically changed her anxiety level. So anything from knowing that I am regulated and my central nervous system is regulated, which can help her system regulate, that's huge. To breath work, to mass, whatever, but it's the bit that I ignored for such a long time, was the bit that was existing in her body. And until I get her body and her brain to match, then forget it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost11:22

Brain to match, then forget it. Yeah, it's just not going to, it's not going to work. So, yeah, and I know, um, we've had you, emma, on the on the podcast before talking about EFT emotional freedom technique, and it was, you know, a lot of my listeners have really had value from that and used it, and that's exactly one of those somatic techniques is where you're, you're, you're tapping and talking about your anxiety or your feelings, and that's baked into what you are teaching the teachers in school as well. So take us through what you teach the teachers, I think, as a starting point, and how it would be interesting to hear how they take it on board too, because I imagine they also have anxiety. And that's an interesting thing from your podcast is a lot of parents have actually used the technique and use it to be able to self-regulate, like you mentioned, laura, before they try and self-regulate their child. So there's a big component of actually helping the adults and other people in the school system as well with this.

Emma NixonGuest12:19

Yeah, I mean it's absolutely massive and it's a huge part of our protocol, I suppose. Is that absolutely massive and it's a huge part of our protocol? I suppose? Is that, yes, this is a tool for children, but it's actually a tool for you and teachers. Well, and parents are in a really tough spot at the moment. You know teachers in particular, if you think they're dealing with very anxious parents and very anxious children and they have to try and remain emotionally regulated in between, and that that's not an easy job, and so we are as much there to try and help the teachers understand this for themselves as we are for the children and I think the thing that the feedback that we're getting, and I think the thing that's really resonating with teachers, is that we based our workshops and our tools on science.

Laura NixonHost13:05

So we are talking always about the science behind, which teachers absolutely love. So it's not because I think when you do and I think we would both have been in this category when you do somatic work or you talk to someone about breathing, and they're like it's a bit woo-hoo, isn't it? But actually, if you look at the science behind, co't it? But actually, if you look at the science behind co-regulation and you look at the science behind tapping or breath work, which we hone in on what happens biologically in your body when you are doing these practices and how then does that change and affect behavior? And so much of what we do in terms of teaching um or working with teachers is to really get them to understand that um. So we dial out the behavior, we dial out of the thoughts and we go straight to understanding the science behind a dysregulated human and what that looks like in their system, and then we say, okay, so here's a way that you could help with that in the classroom. Here are some tools that we've devised that. Speak to that.

Dr Olivia KesselHost14:08

That's a great intro, then, to what tools have you devised, and if you could like illustrate with some examples of how it's worked actually in practice, would be fantastic.

Emma NixonGuest14:19

So we have two tools. One is called Flexit, which is the classroom-based tool that children use. So we go into schools, they have posters, there's a big feelings wheel. It helps children to identify and acknowledge a feeling. And then there's three steps to how they might process that feeling through tapping, breathing or movement. So that is one tool and that helps to reduce the stress response and change biology in children. And then we have another one which is called the connection cone, which is all about co-regulation and connection, so how a teacher can become regulated themselves, and then how to listen to a child not fix, control or change and help them become regulated and find a feeling rather than focusing on the thought. So we sort of have two tools that work together that we currently take into schools.

Laura NixonHost15:15

And if you summarize that in a like the most simplest terms, one is reducing cortisol and one is increasing oxytocin. So we're trying to change the hormonal experience and basically allow the child to to, in their bodies, feel safer. I mean, it's incredible how most of us are in a fight, flight or free state most of the time. That's our children included. So it's those tools are speaking to that biology to try to change it in a quick, fast, not a serious, not in the you know, just fast and effective way so that children can learn, so that children can be present and better social interactions, better learning, less stress at school.

Dr Olivia KesselHost15:57

And it changes the dynamic, doesn't it? It changes the dynamic of you know, you've had this emotion, you've acted out, your behavior's been bad and I'm going to discipline you for it, and it's that's a spiral down into that. Now you're both in fight or flight. You're going to be taken out. So you know you're going to get some sort of punishment which just adds fuel to the flame. So it actually changes that whole dynamic of okay, we're not going down that pathway. We're going to stop this at the emotion part of it, reconnect with each other and deal with it in a way that can bring them down, so that then they can actually listen, engage and maybe explain why they're feeling the way they're feeling.

Laura NixonHost16:40

I think that's the thing and I think that's what we were talking about earlier with regards to parenting our children. When I was parenting my children when they were little, it was all about naughty steps and isolation and the child must comply. But if you think about it, it's obvious. In prisons we do the same. We isolate people. We do it in school with detention, where you feel unsafe and you feel threatened. You're isolated. You're going to feel that more. You're isolated. You're going to feel that more, um, and we know that these things don't. If these things worked, then we would all be nailing it. But but we are. We have epidemic levels of problems now and you know, signaling to a child who, by the way, doesn't come out emotionally regulated, that's another thing. We expect children to behave in a way we don't behave as adults. We expect them to come into the world understanding their emotions, understanding how to regulate their emotions and their central nervous systems, when we can't, mainly as adults, do that.

Dr Olivia KesselHost17:34

So yeah, just absolutely Do as I say, not as I do, kind of philosophy, and I mean I know every mother out listening to this. You know, you start with please do this, please do it, please do it, please do it. You know, and we all lose it several times a day sometimes you know I've had to learn to stop that.

17:52

It's been very challenging. Yeah, because it just it goes. It goes completely pear-shaped. But you know we, we, on a daily basis lose our, our emotional regulation as mothers. You know we, we, we, on a daily basis lose our, our emotional regulation as mothers.

Emma NixonGuest18:06

You know so, to expect our children not to and I think there's a huge amount in there, though, about sort of self-compassion, because we have never, ever been taught that, and you know, I was listening to one of your lovely guests, Tina, on the PDA podcast she was amazing.

18:25

She was amazing and she was talking about how she's had to do all this research to understand the central nervous system to help her child. And you know, I could just hear through her voice it's like why on earth are we not told this? Why were we not told it as adults now and why are we not telling our children?

Laura NixonHost18:43

it's crazy, yeah and I just think, you know, if I dial back seven years, maybe slightly longer, it's a longer timeline than that, so maybe eight um, when I was really struggling with this with my own child. So if I'd have known any of this and I think that's what makes us, you know, so driven to do what we're doing If I'd have known any of this it would have short circuited my own pain, because actually most of the work I did with with my children was on me and it was my response. But if you think about it, is that that response signals a lack of safety. So everything is going to spiral, but it's yeah, it's just so far away from the approach that we thought we were supposed to take.

Dr Olivia KesselHost19:29

And it was taken by our parents. You know I don't know your parents, but I mean my parents. It was you know, it was definitely you know you are. My mom used to say my hand is itching, and you knew what that meant.

Laura NixonHost19:49

Itching on your backside, suppressed humans that are raising children, that were allowed to show their emotions and that can be very threatening, like if you, you know, because the way that we were taught was, you know, you just had to keep a lid on it and you had to behave in a certain way, and that's. That's not the experience we're having with our children. So there's a real disconnect there, and so, as parents, we have to really understand and learn this stuff quick to be able to help our kids out with it Absolutely.

Dr Olivia KesselHost20:15

And then, as you said with your story there, when you add the, you know we're talking about all children now, but then when you add neurodiversity and you have kids with ADHD, autism or dyslexia, all who have, you know, delays in their executive functioning skills, which self-regulation is number five, and you know they occur in a step-like fashion. They get flooded by an emotion.

20:35

So it's on speed, it's quantified and it's really, really challenging for them to regulate and to give them tools to be able to help with that. And I mean, my daughter thinks the tapping is magic. She just, mommy, I'm so anxious, Do the tapping on me and you know I start tapping, she starts yawning, it's you know, it's incredible and you, you, we, just we've discussed this before that they almost have a super response as well to the somatic yeah so my daughter.

Laura NixonHost21:07

When, yeah so my sister started tapping on my daughter and yeah, she, she, just she would. Literally I think you said the same with your daughter, olivia she starts yawning. She starts literally because her cortisol is dropping. I mean, that's biologically what's happening. The cortisol levels are dropping and it makes her feel very tired because she's running high levels of cortisol a lot of the time. So she feels instantly very tired and it has a hugely calming effect on her.

21:31

And I think, particularly, like you say, for these children who do have, who do struggle more with emotional regulation, that the biggest issue that I have with that is not the day-to-day handling of that, it's the impact it has on her life. And if she doesn't have tools that, can you know, it's not even necessarily enjoyment of life, although that's huge, but it's her health. You know, if she's always reactive and she's always got high levels of adrenaline, norepinephrine, cortisol, then that will impact her immunity, that will impact her health and long term. I mean, we know with ADHD kids, they have humans brains, they have a shorter life expectancy and it's not a surprise when you think about the impact that that emotional dysregulation has on their bodies. So getting any tool that drops her cortisol and that she knows she can use and she can go to, it's huge. It's huge.

Emma NixonGuest22:24

And I think another one of the important things actually is that the schools are bringing these tools in to be used like three times a day. So it's having that constant cumulative effect. It's not going to the situation when it has imploded. It's constantly trying to keep that level of regulation rather than, oh no, we're in a total sort of conflict and let's try and resolve it. So it's helping kids to sort of. My daughter actually says so, it's not you. She's in secondary school and we're working with primary schools, but I teach her the tools and she goes to the toilet and she uses them and on days where she hasn't had what she calls it, that little emotional check in, three times a day she comes home, she's held the mask all day and that's it. You can tell it's then off because she hasn't checked in during the day to see how she feels. You know how to process those emotions and for a lot of these kids, particularly neurodiverse kids with these big masks on every day, it's really important that they're able to just have that, those moments to check in and regulate and it's decreasing that pressure cooker and you know having those moments of dysregulation you create a lot of social strain for these kids so it really can impact and cause bullying and cause pressures on

Dr Olivia KesselHost23:40

the playground and then that kind of confounds itself because then they have more experience of failure. That compounds the anxiety and it becomes a vicious circle and then they're more dysregulated because they have all of that built inside them. So it's, it's, it's so important to teach these skills young. You know not, you can be old and still have value from them. You know, as, as we've heard other mothers say, but you know to, to, to what you're doing in primary schools to get this right early on. From a health perspective, but also from a mental health perspective, it has long-term outcomes and effects that the child will feel throughout its life.

Laura NixonHost24:21

Yeah, and I think one of the things on that note, when you see a child, that this is what we're really so passionate about and I think because of this you know, looking at our own children, that when you see a child who is hitting or is running or is doing a behavior that you don't, you know, you don't necessarily want in school, all they're doing is trying to calm their central nervous system. It makes sense. If you're dysregulated and your central nervous system is gone, if your heart rate's increased, if you've got more glucose circulating in your body, it makes sense to run out of a classroom. It might not be what you want, but it's. It's a very clever way of regulating. But the child then gets into trouble for their clever response, which is to run out of a classroom. It might not be what you want, but it's a very clever way of regulating. But the child then gets into trouble for their clever response, which is to run because it's too difficult to sit here.

25:03

And so actually just saying to children that you know that's one way of soothing your system, but there are other ways that could be more useful and impactful and helpful. Similarly with flash anger and ADHD. It's just a way of trying to calm the system. If I have this massive outburst, I'm just trying to regulate, but we then punish it and do all sorts of things with it, which makes it worse, rather than understand that. That's actually pretty smart. We don't want you to do it, because it's not helpful and it doesn't help you in society long-term to behave like that. But it does make sense if you look at it from the angle of central nervous system and emotional regulation.

Dr Olivia KesselHost25:42

Yeah, absolutely, and it's. I like the idea of doing it constantly, because then it becomes a behavior. So then it's almost, you know, it's out of the prefrontal cortex and processing it becomes you know, like we find with exercise, if you do it, you know it becomes a behavior, and then it, then it comes, even when you're not thinking.

Emma NixonGuest26:01

Oh, this is what I need to do.

Dr Olivia KesselHost26:05

So take me through some of your success stories in schools. You know you know brag a bit to me about. You know how this has impacted some of the schools you've been in.

Emma NixonGuest26:17

I think the nicest one for me or the most lovely testimonial we had was from a parent who actually wasn't aware that the tool was going into school, but whose six-year-old obviously had started to learn it in school and she was having one of those mornings mornings according to her six-year-old and her six-year-old told her how to use the tool to help her regulate, which I just think is genius yeah, and then I did another one, um, so I thought this was a testament to how amazing our teachers are.

Laura NixonHost26:51

Um, so had gone through the workshop, was dealing with a child at school that a neuro, so I I can't remember the exact um uh child, but the the child was potentially a difficult child for them to deal with and the teacher called the parent and said um, I've got something new. I think this is going to work. We haven't ever done anything like this before and I think it's going to work with your child. So I'm going to try it tomorrow. And it was this lovely interaction between the teacher and the parent outside of us, where the teacher had seen, they had seen it was different. They hadn't tried it and actually could see that, with this child that was displaying difficult behavior, that it would work. And that parent then contacted us and said you know, this is incredible. So it was.

Emma NixonGuest27:41

Yeah, it might be the parent said you might not be able to impact all teachers, um, but you can change them, one teacher at a time, or something like that was lovely, wasn't it? You might yeah, it's nice, lovely feedback.

Dr Olivia KesselHost27:55

And that's a nice connection between the parent and the teachers as well. Because, you know, even though this is important to do in school, you know it's really important to do at home as well, you know, and having that continuity because it's, I think sometimes we do things at school or we do things at home, but actually when we create that unity and work together with teachers, I actually met someone yesterday and she's like I like to know she does swimming with with kids of neurodiversity, and she said I'd like to know what, what works for children and that I can then do when they're coming to their swimming lesson, cause the more we're all on the same page, the better it is, especially with autism. You know the, the, the, you know the that that consistency as well is so important. But for all children, having that consistency is really important, you know.

Emma NixonGuest28:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.

Dr Olivia KesselHost28:40

How has it been to get into schools, you know, have there been barriers? Have they opened the doors and rolled out the red carpet? You know what has been the reaction within schools and within teachers and even parents.

Emma NixonGuest28:54

I mean, we've only really grown at the moment by word of mouth, which is great. So there does seem to be this impression that it's incredibly difficult to get into schools. But I really do wonder if it's the area that we're working in. There is such a huge problem that we haven't necessarily found it difficult because there is this massive problem. Teachers need fast tools. So that's the other thing as well. They need things instantly. I remember doing lots of training when I was doing the EFT. There were lots of teachers on there and they said we can't talk kids through problems anymore, we need fast tools. We can't talk through kids through problems anymore, we need fast tools. So I think, yeah, we seem to have sort of come up with a solution that's quick and that really works for teachers and schools at the moment. Absolutely, yeah, go ahead.

Dr Olivia KesselHost29:48

Well, and I just think it's. It's that penny that needs to drop. That talking doesn't help at all. It dropped for me as a parent. I mean I would talk continually, I'm a talker and I would talk, and it would just make things worse. You know, literally worse.

Laura NixonHost30:01

I hear you, yeah same. I really thought I had some pretty good solutions through my words, you know, and especially like if you have a child with adhd who has a million thoughts going on in their head, forget the talking.

Dr Olivia KesselHost30:16

It's not a problem with their knowledge, it's it's a problem with performance, it's not a problem with the knowledge. So you're just, you're adding it. Yeah, and I think teachings like that being a doctor's like that too we love to talk and tell people what they should be doing and it's changing that to something that's very practical, hands-on, easy, as you say, to use, and it just it changes how you're coping with it. Yes, yeah exactly.

30:42

So that sounds great that schools are really interested. And you know I know probably a lot of people on the podcast now listening are thinking, oh, I'd like to have this in my school. You know, this would be really good. I bet it's really expensive or maybe it isn't. You know, how do schools afford it? I think it's worthwhile discussing so that our listeners out there they can have maybe those conversations with their schools if this is something that is of interest to them, different ways that they can fund it.

Emma NixonGuest31:15

So I mean, I think we've noticed that we've sort of worked across a range of schools, so it depends on the type of school that your child is at. But there does seem to be in every school sort of a wellbeing budget and my understanding is that each school has their own kind of autonomy over how that is spent. For schools that have maybe spent that, there is access to things like grants. You know, emotional health is now really important, so there are grants and things available. So there are various different ways of funding and we thought this would be a problem, but it's not not something that we've found has been we've also had funding through ptas.

Laura NixonHost31:52

So one of the things that uh came up at one school is you know that it doesn't really matter. We need it so much we've got to do something. We can't teach the kids effectively. Um, so yeah, we've. We've actually had all sorts of different ways that schools have funded this and we have gone into schools where they've said there's no funding and they have found funding once they understand what we're doing. Um. So yeah, there's been a. We thought we'd be up against that more than we are. I think we would say.

Dr Olivia KesselHost32:30

That's fantastic. And you know, another thing that comes to mind that I know you're still early in this, but I would. You know, the science side of my brain is, you know, tracking, like what this, how this impacts. You know, because you could really look at the data in terms of, you know, detentions, isolations. You know there's definite metrics that you could use to see what it was like before and what it is like after this intervention. That would be super interesting. You guys could write a paper, actually publish it, you know. Yeah, so I think yeah, definitely we are.

Laura NixonHost33:05

so, yeah, we'll work with you on that, we are, I'll be more than willing to.

Dr Olivia KesselHost33:10

I love, I love data and science we're super interested in that as well.

Laura NixonHost33:15

Like that's one of the things that we are looking at, um, and you know, it's sort of making sure all the time that our training is enough for teachers to be able to take what we're saying and use it practically, because, like everything, we're sort of we're slightly removed once we leave, we're slightly removed from the process, and so many of these things in school have been done for such a long time that when we're suggesting something new, there is a patience around, you know, um, you know a confidence in using these tools, a confidence in being this way yourself. You know, so much of us thinks that we should shut down difficult behavior. We should, you know, discipline it and things like that. So we are asking for a new way. So we're sort of being very patient with schools as well and saying that that it's something that we all have to get used to thinking about in a different way. But we are super interested in in that too. Like, where do we what's?

Dr Olivia KesselHost34:11

interesting is, you know, motivational interviewing is is a technique, with coaching, that you probably are familiar with, but it's like a language, so it's changing from you know that that.

34:21

let me tell you what to do as a coach and rather you're, you're telling me, I'm reflecting, I'm, I'm, I'm rephrasing what you're saying and it's a very different way of doing things, and it's like a language, as is this it's a very different way of doing things and you have to use it or you lose it, and you have to ensure that it's refreshed. So do you come back into schools and re-engage and check in, because it seems like that would be maybe quite important.

Laura NixonHost34:46

We are doing that at the moment. Yeah, so we are following up with schools. You're absolutely right and I think I really resonate with that. In my own journey as a parent, I had to forget a million times before I remembered that my instinctive way of doing things wasn't going to work. So we're asking that now. We're asking that of somebody to do it, you know, to instantly understand and learn and take on board. So, yeah, I think it is. You're absolutely right.

35:12

It depends on where you are in that journey yourself and we've definitely found with teachers there are some that I mean they just are so this way phenomenal. You know they understand, they get it, but possibly because they've done quite a lot of work on themselves. You know, we're lucky enough to be in a space where people are very vulnerable about their own experiences and have done lots of work on themselves, and then others aren't quite there yet. So depending on where they are in their journey can also be how they're teaching the children. So we take that into account as well and we are following up as much as we can um, to just keep you know. Um, you know all the time we're coming up as much as we can. Um, to just keep.

35:50

You know, um, you know, all the time we're coming up with materials that we can give to schools, that can help them remember the science, remember the, the um, you know the philosophy, how to engage, how to talk to you, like you're saying, try to drop the judgment, try to drop the fixing. But you know, I say to my one-to-one clients, the best word that you could, the best sort of state of mind you can have, is curiosity, like just become curious about. But lots of times the feedback is when they try and I'm I resonate with this as myself that I almost become mute if I'm not fixing or changing or controlling this situation. I'm like, uh, what do I say? What do I say? So it's like this learning of a new language that we have to go through and yeah, but you know, we, we sort of have accepted that that might be a slow process but we'll just keep banging the drum.

Emma NixonGuest36:40

There are some soft metrics in there as well, so we do add in at the end of some of our training material little quizzes for the children. So, as you mentioned about the language, this is much about them sort of developing a slightly different language and are all feelings welcome and you know these types of things. So it can be quite measurable through the children and the way that they are starting to change.

Laura NixonHost37:03

Yeah, like language at school yeah, you know, also go ahead very keen, say it's uh. You know we're all always saying it's, it's, it's a long, it's the long game here. You know you, I know with uh this, this type of change, you'll know from the world you work in it's not quick, you, you oftentimes you're. You know we are using tools to emotionally help children in a quicker way, but the whole emotional regulation journey, I mean, like you know, children's frontal lobes don't develop till they're 25. So what we're saying is keep saying, keep saying, keep doing, keep showing and we're educating for the long term.

Dr Olivia KesselHost37:44

And what I think is it's so powerful on the children and you used an example when we did the podcast before and the one today of a child, you know, teaching then a parent or teaching another child because it works. And like with my daughter too, like she went through a period where she's like I don't want it anymore. I'm like okay, we won't do it anymore. And then, you know, I took it out again and tried it and I was like why have you been hiding this from me? I'm like you just can't win, can you?

38:08

But now you know, she's like mommy, you know, I need it. You know, and I think that's what's kind of powerful because it is it does have such a powerful response in children. And then they look at their parents and are like, hey, you know, maybe I should tap on you. Or even the teacher, you know, you seem my set, maybe you need some tapping.

Emma NixonGuest38:34

And I think you make a good point there, olivia that children drift in and out of this. So success for us doesn't look like an entire class of children following a protocol. You know some children might not at certain points or come to it at their own time. You know it's about having sort of exposure to something that could be useful.

Laura NixonHost38:50

I suppose, but I think you're right, so I would. I would say the same with my daughter. She asked when life becomes quite difficult for her. She asked to go and see my sister, and that's her place where she she recognizes that it. It makes her feel different and it makes her feel safer in her body. And we have lots of examples of teachers that have come to us. In fact, I had one last week who said I forgot I came in the classroom, I forgot. My children reminded me we're supposed to be tapping, and so I think it's because they do feel a certain way when they've done it. So they will remind you.

Emma NixonGuest39:28

If nothing else, some of the tools that we have in there are. They're humorous, you know, they make you laugh and so, and he is a huge diffuser of the stress response so there's a million and one different things that can be used to help with this. It's not just one way that works yeah, yeah, no, I know I.

Dr Olivia KesselHost39:46

And and back to tina with pda. You know, using humor, I use it with my daughter too. It is so if you can make a laugh of it, if you can make it fun, you know we go to bed doing the cucaracha now with my dog you know, and it's a whole performance. You know it's not bedtime, it's showtime.

Laura NixonHost40:05

Yeah, so that I, I agree, like my husband does it best with my daughter because I suspect he has an ADHD brain as well, so he can, he can take the mickey out of her so well, and they laugh and it is the biggest. It's a game changer humor, because but it goes back to what we're talking about. It it it increases oxytocin, it decreases cortisol. It's doing the same thing. As I was saying, it's not just one way you can do this, but if you understand the science and you understand what's behind that, then you can find so many different ways of doing it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost40:41

I agree, and those are, I think, great words to end on, but, as I like to do, and you have been forewarned, what would be your three top tips now? And I've given you the option of either sharing or each doing three top tips, and I don't know which way you're going to go. So, but basically, it's what? If you know parents are listening to this, it's three things that they can take away and remember from our talk today.

Laura NixonHost41:06

So I think, yeah, we're going to do joint ones, aren't we? I think? The first one, I think I would say if you're struggling, so if you're struggling with anxiety yourself, if you're struggling with anxiety in your home, go to your own body first. So notice changes in your body, like your heart rate might be increasing, your voice might be raising, like you might feel sweaty in your, your palms. If that's happening when there's anxiety in yourself or around you, then you can pretty much determine that there's been a physiological change in your body and that will determine how you go forward into the interaction. So turn to face yourself first.

41:44

Quickest, easiest way of getting a handle on your own central nervous system is to slow your breathing down. So I I might misquote this, but I'm pretty sure the five, seven, eight breaths so in for five, hold for seven, out for eight came up in clinical trials as useful as anti-anxiety medication. So go to your own breath. We know from our own dad who's suffering with anxiety at the moment, that that's very helpful. Um, so sort yourself out. First, own oxygen mask on, and then I think as well if you have a child that's struggling. So point number two would be if you have a child that's struggling in your home? Um, and you haven't looked at this as an angle to help them with their dysregulation, help them with their behavior that might not be working for them. Then think about ways that you can calm your child's central nervous system down and dial away from stories, dial away from the words and go to anything that signals safety to them in their bodies.

Emma NixonGuest42:42

And I think, as a last point, you know, laura and I have a vision really that primary school children in particular, they learn to read the emotions in their bodies as well as they learn to read books in schools. And if, as a parent, that really resonates with you, please do get in touch. We're really keen to bring this into schools. So one way that you could sort of move things forward is get in contact with us and we can see how we can work together.

Dr Olivia KesselHost43:10

Yeah, and I will have all of your details of how to get in contact in the, in the podcast notes and also on our website today. But I love that, I love the. You know, I think that's a great way to end. Let's teach our children to read their emotions, like they can read books, because really it's it's such a key thing in life and you know, I wish I'd been taught it because I'm still a train wreck. You know, that's why we're here and you know we have to thank our children and the mirrors that they hold up to us Because, honestly, as you said, laura, I have grown so much through these experiences.

43:48

Yeah, same Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been a pleasure. I have grown so much through these experiences. Yeah, same Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having us. Thank you, thank you for listening. Send parenting tribe. Please visit our website at S E N D parentingcom and sign up to our email list, as I have some exciting things coming in the pipeline that I'd really like you, as listeners, to be the first to know about. Wishing you and your family an anxiety-free week ahead, thank you.