Transcript - Episode Six
Educational Psychologist, Dr Levy, explains how an assessment can help you create an educational road map
Please excuse any errors as this transcript has been automatically generated
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast, focused on supporting, inspiring, and empowering parents and their Neurodiverse children. I'm your Neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. We'll be speaking weekly with experts in the world of neurodiversity. No topic is too big or too small for us to discuss. We will include things like, how do you navigate education? How can you understand what your child's legal rights are to an education? Practical advice on neurodiversity, and most importantly, hearing the voices of other parents just like you. Looking forward to having you join US weekly as part of the SENDParenting Tribe.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Jemma Levy, educational and child psychologist who trained at the University College of London. She provides psychological support to children and young adults up to the age of 25, supporting the whole family to ensure every child reaches their full potential. Dr. Levy is truly passionate about children and young people with special educational needs, and believes that every child has strengths that can be uncovered and used to help with their learning. Through a psychological assessment, the child's strengths and areas of needs can be used to devise a comprehensive intervention plan, ensuring the child has the right support to reach their full potential. If you've ever wondered if your child needs an educational assessment or what an educational assessment is, this is the podcast for you. So welcome, Dr. Levy. Thank you so much for joining us on as SEND parenting Podcast.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's a real honor to have you here today. I told my daughter this morning that I was gonna be speaking with you, and she said, oh my God, mommy, she's so super kind. And I mean, you assessed her over a year ago and she remembers you so fondly. So I'm really, really happy that you are going to speak to us today about what it is to be an educational psychologist because you know, a lot of people, including myself, I didn't know what an educational psychologist was and why I should get a report or an assessment by my daughter. So what is an educational psychologist?
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Such a good question. I feel I don't even know the answer. I'm going have to think about this. So, in some ways I see us as a little bit of the jack of all trades of special needs. So we cover the broad range of looking at your child's development. So looking at where they are at in comparison to peers their age, whether they are attaining at the right level for, for their age group, whether they're accessing the curriculum, and then looking at their cognitive potential and making sure that the child is working at the right level for their ability levels and checking that their ability is in line with their attainment and their ability to learn. So really it's about making sure that every child achieves their potential and reaches whatever potential they have, making sure they reach that potential in whichever way that is. So a lot of our work is supporting teachers to support the children in the right way, because I find that, especially in a class of 30 in mainstream school teachers try their absolute best with our children and are amazing, amazing people, but often can't tailor the teaching to the level that is needed for all 30 children. And it's making sure that your child's brains in the forefront of your teacher's mind and how they learn best to make sure that your teachers are teaching them in the best way possible for their brain.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That makes, you know, it makes a lot of sense because then you know where the child can go and then how that child can learn. How does that practically translate in the classroom when, when someone gets an educational psychology report? How does what you said, how does it put the child in the teacher's forefront of their mind?
Dr. Jemma Levy:
So, I guess this is where I was saying we're kind of that broad spectrum. Because it really depends on what that child's needs are. So for so many children that I see, it may be that they don't have any learning needs, but they have autism or they have ADHD, which affects their processing around learning and affects their behavior in the classroom and their readiness to learn. It's not, they don't want to learn. They need support to be ready to be able to learn.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
So they can learn,
Dr. Jemma Levy:
They can, they can learn so well, they just need the support to be ready and able to engage. Then for other children, it is that there may be a learning difficulty in some form, whether that's dyslexia or a more general learning difficulty. That's across their whole ability, across their whole cognitive ability. It's making sure that, those children have the right adaptations to the actual learning itself. Because let's say the child's in year four, but they're reading and writing is at a year two level, suddenly it's not just literacy that's difficult. It's not just your English lessons that are hard. How are you meant to read the math problems? How are you meant to read the questions? In science, when you are working a couple of years behind your peers, you need a total adapted curriculum so that you can access it. So it really depends on what the child's needs are to what the kind of adaptations that are needed. But it's making sure that we look at the whole child and the broad range of skills and difficulties to highlight what's needed.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That makes a lot of sense. It's very personalized to the child and, and their specific needs within the classroom
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Completely. I, I don't think even if you see, say two children with dyslexia, two children with autism or two children with ADHD, I've never met two children who are the same by any stretch of the imagination, and therefore two children who need the same adaptations to their learning. So what every child presents with is totally different. And that's in, that's part of their personality and part of their approach and part of all different aspects of them. And then what they need in the classroom is always going to vary for each child.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It puts a lot of responsibility on that teacher when they're having 32 kids in a classroom to be able to do that. But I imagine having that road map makes it a lot easier to implement once you have, you have figured out what is the right pathway using the assessment that you do. What age would you say that is the right age if parents are noticing that their kids are struggling in school? What's kind of the journey? Like when, when do they go to an educational psychologist and what age is right?
Dr. Jemma Levy:
It is, again, a really good question. So we are trained from age zero to 25 is the official numbers. I personally find, so actually today, for example, I'm seeing a three-year-old who's already been diagnosed with autism, and is already on the path to kind of getting support in school and it's helping his parents along that path. But generally the little children are highlighted by their nurseries and the pediatricians and the health visiting system. But quite often the national health service and the LA services support the very young children on the start of their path in terms of making sure that they're identified and diagnosed at the right point. So I don't see as many younger children in private practice. I would say. I think it becomes clear to parents it's for learning difficulties or dyslexia and question marks around how a child is accessing the learning in school.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
I think that becomes clearer around age seven. That seems to be the key age that parents are like, oh, we've been trying and trying and trying and it's just not clicking. There's something different here. And then I think it's probably a little bit later, I would say that I, that it becomes clearer when there's social communication needs or autism with a high functioning child. So it could be maybe the transition between primary and secondary school where they've really struggled with that change and that change of environment. And at that point parents are like, oh, they're going to need more support than they're getting at the moment. Or it happens in the GCSEs and not getting the grades that maybe are expected of them. It's looking at why that is and what accommodations they need. So it is kind of across different ages, but I'd say the majority in private practice, you don't see as many little, little ones.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And in private practices it mainly driven, it's driven by the parents I would I presume.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Yeah, it is, generally, however, because there's such a shortage of local authority services, actually local authorities and schools are buying in private services as well. So, okay a lot of schools are engaging, actually, we have to pay for services from the local authority for X amount per year. We're better to spend that amount and have a private professional where we have consistency in the professional, we get to pick exactly who we want. We get more from that kind of relationship. So quite a lot of schools have made that decision when once it became that it wasn't a free service on the local authority that schools were having to pay for it, that actually they're getting in independent professionals because they're getting more for their money effectively.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That's, that's super interesting, isn't it? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah and, and from what you've said earlier about how important this is to actually be able to tailor or be child-centric, you can see the school's value that the assessments that you do as well because it helps them to track that potential of that child.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
And that's a hundred percent right. And I think that's something that is really, if, when you are looking for an Educational psychologist, something that is really important that you look for is that they will be liaising with your school. They will have to be having that kind of input with them, that consultation, that feedback, kind of that monitoring of your child. Because we can write the most beautiful report in the world, you can write a 20 page beautiful thesis. If you're just sensing that without any verbal feedback, it doesn't mean that much. It's not as meaningful as when you are actually saying, okay, so this is what I'm actually getting at, this is what I mean, here's the documents to back it up. Here's your records, but this is what we should do. And actually problem solving alongside the school. So saying, this is our situation, I think this could work. How do you think that could go, what, what is feasible within your environment? I think they need a reading program every day for half an hour. Is that possible? If not, could we do three times a week? And having that negotiation with them of making sure that there's a plan that they can do. Because otherwise it's a lovely piece of paper that it's not meaningful
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And, you know, really working collaboratively. It sounds like, and, and realistically, I know for myself, when I read my daughters assessment, it was very difficult to read <laugh>, you know what I mean? It was, it was hard going. And I think for for many parents, because you suspect, you wonder, and then really it is the kind of mirror in your face moment. How do you think parents can move forward, some of the coping strategies when they do read the assessment and they, you know, realize potentially the extent....
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Yeah.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Of their child's needs?
Dr. Jemma Levy:
I, again, I think part of that is making sure that you are having verbal feedback with parents before they're sent a document that's really hard. Hitting black and white is always harder. Reading on paper is always, yeah, it's deeper. So making sure you have that time with parents to say, these are the general findings and this is where I'm going with my thinking. To have that back and forth conversation so they have a chance to ask questions and to kind of debrief I think is really important. It's also, it's also relevant to think about the purpose of the assessment. So as educational psychologists, we can do reports for children, kind of like I was talking about where we don't know what's going on, we have no idea, they've not been identified with any needs at all. It's kind of a blank slate and it's starting looking at what's going on.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Or it can be with a child where they've already got identified needs, they've already finding school quite challenging, they're a little bit older and it hasn't worked in mainstream and we're looking at changing them to a specialist setting. At that point, quite often parents need a report to back up why we need that change to a specialist setting and why we need an education healthcare plan, or why we need additional funding. And at that point, when you are doing an assessment report in those situations, your job is to highlight the needs. You can talk about how wonderful a child is and you want to be able to celebrate their strengths, but ultimately your role is to highlight where the difficulties are and what they need, what we need to do about it. And in some cases, it's not a case of the teacher changing how they're teaching the child just needs a new environment, a totally different setup. And in those cases it is harder. It's a harder situation to be in for parents and therefore it's harder to read those kind of results and, and have to start that process.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah, it is, but in a way it's also freeing because then you, you know, have looked the, the problem in the eye, so to speak. And then you can move forward from it and then hopefully you're going to get the right structures in place. And I know from my personal journey that now I'm seeing her flourish. So before looking at that in the eye and seeing what she needed, I was kind of floundering a bit in the dark, you know, trying different things, putting different tactics in place of the school. None of it was working. And then after the assessment it's like, oh, that, it became clear to me what, what the road was to, to get her to reach her potential. And I've now seen her progress, which is just so wonderful. You know, there's no other way to describe it. It puts a smile on a parent's face, you know,
Dr. Jemma Levy:
<laugh>. Um, that's amazing To me.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
It's
Dr. Jemma Levy:
A journey. Maybe, maybe that's the answer to the initial question of what an educational psychologist is. Maybe it is about building that road. Maybe it's about helping parents build the road forward in whatever way that is, whatever way, whatever that road looks like. Absolutely. That child in every road being different, but actually starting that road off, maybe that is our role.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
I think that's a, you know, that's a pretty cool job to have <laugh>, you know, <laugh>
Dr. Jemma Levy:
We are the luckiest people in the whole world because yeah, you don't, you get to meet the most amazing children every day. I get home from my day's work and my husband will say, how's your day Jemma? Oh my God, I met the best kid ever. They were telling me all about, and I dunno, something that I've had no idea about before, often to do with computer games or technology or something that is just beyond my capacity. I reel off all this information and I kind of say to my husband, how's your day? And he's kind of got a, a normal nine to five, let's say. And he'll be like, yeah, it's ok and I'm just so animated, full of love for the families that I have met, just so inspired by the children I meet that I am so, so lucky.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And they're so lucky too because they're completely inspired by you as well and, and you know, their experience. I know a few people who have used your services and they have all come back with the same, the kids just love you. So you have a gift with children, which is, which is lovely <laugh> in terms of diagnosing and being an educational psychologist. What diagnosis can an educational psychologist give and what diagnosis can't they give? Or is there a delineation?
Dr. Jemma Levy:
And it's again, a really, really good question because it's something that I try and make parents really aware of, kind of as, as soon as they email me, just making sure that they're clear about what we can do, what we can't do, and what the limitations of, of our remit So whilst, our core remit I would say would be to target anything to do with learning. So any specific learning difficulties like dyslexia, dyscalculia, or any general learning difficulties. So anything around the, that kind of remit is our core kind of fundamental area. The bit that we can't give official diagnoses around autism and ADHD. So I would say, no, maybe 80% of the children I see, I think whether they're diagnosed or not diagnosed have either autism or ADHD
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Wow, that's super high.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
It's a huge, huge amount and so often unseen or undiagnosed at the time they're seeing me. So at that point, my role is to highlight what the barrier is. And it may be me saying I think they have ADHD, I think they have an attention difficulty and doing questionnaires and investigating that to look at doing assessment tools to check whether that is the area of difficulty in our reports we can say this is indicative of ADHD or autism, but can't give the official diagnosis. So you have to refer parents on for that. And my understanding of the reason behind that is because they're medical diagnoses, so they have to come from medically a medical kind of background professional.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And then, I'm sure you're fully aware, like with parents, it's difficult to get assessments. There's huge waiting lists with, with getting those assessments. Yeah through the NHS. I know parents also go privately as well
Dr. Jemma Levy:
And both routes are really hard right now. So even parents are like, we'll, we mortgage our home, we're not going to go on holiday for six years. We'll do whatever we need to do. Let's get this done. And then actually trying to get them through to the right person is really difficult because you also as a professional want to match the child, the family to the right professional that you're referring them onto. Otherwise it's not going to be a successful process. It has to kind of be the right fit. So yeah, I think both routes are really difficult right now. There's a huge, huge waiting list in both areas. The thing, the kind of positive part is that all kind of school accommodations and adaptations that that child needs are enough. From an education plan, you don't need an official label.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That's, that's fantastic actually, because that's the important stuff, isn't it?
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Exactly. The day-to-day it shouldn't make a difference. It shouldn't make a difference. And this is debatable <laugh>. When it comes to an education, health, and care plan, whether it's an official diagnosis or it's someone saying, we think all of this adds up to that disorder. Legally it shouldn't make a difference for either in school support or an EHCP level support. It shouldn't.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
That's really, I think, valuable because getting an ed educational psych report there's waiting times as well, but it's more achievable, I think than some of the medical diagnosis's currently, so it gives you, like I said earlier, until you see what you're dealing with with your child, until you have that officially on that black and white paper, it's very hard to negotiate with the school, to collaborate with the school and to be on the same page with the school. And then if you wait it can be three years and I mean a month in a child's life, they, they change, you know?
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Exactly. The CAMS right now is just a broken system. It's not working, it's just, it's not working for the diagnoses for the children, getting them through, getting the right support. Diagnoses and then getting any treatment, forget it. Like it's just not there. So I see so many teenagers with complex needs, with autism, with social communication difficulties and then having mental health difficulties associated with those needs. So having anxiety, having low moods and to get them any treatment through CAMS is just a nightmare. And their children, where it's been documented, I'm so worried because they were little, that they've got additional needs. It's not kind of a surprise to anyone but actually getting support. Yeah.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And people talk about, oh, I don't want my child to be labeled with a diagnosis. Now it even seems like you might even want your child to be labeled with a diagnosis. At least you know, that's how I felt because then I know where to go with it and I think hopefully the labels are getting less negative nowadays. What do you think are the pros and cons in, in terms of getting that label or that diagnosis, whether it be dyslexia or autism or ADHD or anything
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Really? I personally see it's a really positive process. I have ADHD myself, so I've had to go through that diagnostic process and kind of being like, help, I've got something that's different here. And kind of accepting that something was different for me. Having gone through that process, I can see how powerful it is to be able to say, I have, I am, this is part of me. And I think it's about the professionals you work with. So making sure you're working with professionals who see it in a positive light, who are presenting it to your child in a positive light, who are, who are showing you the many strengths of having one of these difficulties, but also the strengths that come with it and making sure it's kind of that balanced process. But I think for me, a diagnosis or making, just being clear about what the area of need is, whether it's an official kind of medical diagnosis or it's kind of indicative of kind of diagnosis that it's, I guess it's that road again, if we thinking about that road, we need signposts, we need road names, we need, we need to know where we're going.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
And it gives us some way of knowing where that route's taking us.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
You know, it's interesting because my daughter has a totally different view on it, right? She didn't know before diagnosis that she had any, you know, special needs. And now when I see her playing, she's like, mummy, you know, when I have kids, will they have special needs too. I really hope so, because I want them to be like me. And I'm like, well that, you know, that is beautiful. That's like, I want my kids to have blonde hair or blue eyes or whatever, you know, she views it as a complete positive and that's wonderful, you know, for her it's like she would be disappointed.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
<laugh>. Yeah. I love that. That's so your daughter, she is so sassy. I just love that attitude that sums her up. But that's the attitude you've instilled in her and that's what you've shown her. She hasn't come up with that way of thinking herself maybe a bit because she is a sasper and, and knows her thinking, but that's the environment she's been brought up in. And that's one of the things I say to parents is I never want any of these words to be these like big no-go words in your house. Like autism being like a swear word that isn't said is this big secret. If they're just, if these things are just talked about and normalized and also we are releasing it back to ourselves, to our children, we're saying, look, we are all, all our brains are different. We are all, we all think differently and, and process things differently just like you. I think it's really empowering for them.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Yeah, I completely agree and, in the beginning of this, when you're starting this journey as we say it, it doesn't feel like a gift and it's hard and there is a lot of coming to understanding, but at the, as you go through it and as you learn more, and I think your children are put on earth to teach you, I've learned so much as an individual and I've grown as an individual and it's, I wouldn't take back a moment of it, you know? So I think, for parents it's important to keep a smile on your face and to, to love the child in front of you and to, you know, start that journey, get the roadmaps, get the right things in place for them so that they can, can reach their potential, whatever that is...
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Totally. And that's it. That's, it's just about every child reaching whatever their potential may be is making sure that they, they reach that. And that's, that's in all forms. I guess yesterday I was having a conversation, about thinking for a child's secondary education that is really important that we get him some functional literacy skills. And actually by chance the mum was saying the example of, I want him to be able to read a road sign. I want him to be able to walk out into the road and know what that means. As an example of kind of that functional kind of integration into community life and being able to be that functioning member society to the other side of the coin where I'm trying to get, EHCPs and high level funding for children where their cognitive abilities is in the 99th point, ninth percentile and totally through the roof, but they're only achieving below age expected levels because they've got ADHD and can't sit still in that classroom. And so, so all kind of ends of the spectrum of making sure whatever is just working out what that child's potential is and making sure they reach that, reach that goal.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
And like you said, it's totally personalized. You know, you meet one kid with dyslexia, you meet another kid with dyslexia, they're completely different. Same with ADHD and autism. So getting that personalized assessment and making your your map for your child is so key, I think.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Yeah, exactly. Completely agree.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Well, you know, Jemma, thank you so, so much for joining us today on the SEND Parenting podcast. You are a pleasure to speak to and you've inspired me and I'm sure that a lot of people listening to this will be more, um, not excited is the wrong word, but more engaging in getting an assessment for their child because of what you've said today.
Dr. Jemma Levy:
Oh, I'm really, really lovely to speak to you and it's lovely to see, um, you embark in this journey of supporting other parents who are in a similar situation to yourself because working with you and your gorgeous daughter, it was lovely to see a really proactive parent who was totally involved, totally just wanting their absolute best. So it's lovely to hear you supporting other families with that, with that process.
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Thank you. That is very kind of you. Jemma,
Dr Olivia Kessel:
Thank you for listening and being part of the Send Parenting Tribe. If this is your first time joining us, remember to follow us so you can join us weekly for more insightful interviews to support you and your child on their educational journey to reach their potential. Dr. Levy has highlighted the need for an educational roadmap for your child if they're struggling in school, but how can you spot the signs that your child is struggling? Please go to send parenting.com to read our blog on this topic and to sign up for our email newsletter that will be released monthly. Wishing you and your family a calm week ahead till next week.