EP 59: Emotional Regulation & Violent Outbursts with Sarah Fisher

Please excuse any error in this autogenerated transcript

Dr KesselHost00:07

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode we will be speaking with Sarah Fisher, author of Connective Parenting, a guide to connecting with your child using the NVR approach. Nvr stands for Nonviolent Resistance. Sarah is a single mother who's faced her own uphill battles and challenges with her neurodiverse adopted son. She found the light at the end of the tunnel with the NVR approach. If you've ever struggled as a parent with your child and their emotional regulation, this is the podcast for you. So welcome Sarah. It is an absolute pleasure to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today.

01:27

I was actually introduced to your book, connective Parenting, when I was at an absolute crisis point with my daughter Alexandra, and I had actually gone to get her assessed at a center and I was speaking to the clinical psychiatrist and I said, you know, regardless of what her diagnosis is, I cannot cope right now with these. You know, immense or intense, or both immense and intense, explosions of emotions that were just, you know, kicking, biting, screaming, and so I said to her I need something now, before the diagnosis, you know, or even if she doesn't have, you know, what I think she has, which was ADHD. And so she referred me to your book and the concept of nonviolent resistance and, honestly, like, for me, nonviolent resistance was something that was, you know, a form of peaceful, political kind of protest which, you know, some of my greatest political heroes, gandhi and Mandela, you know, used and I, you know, in the back of my mind, I'm like, well, if they could work for them, you know, maybe, maybe they could help me with this little firecracker I have in my house right now. So, you know, and your book really did revolutionize and give me some really good tools, so I wanted to share, I wanted to meet you and I wanted to share with my audience on the Send Parenting podcast what the techniques are and you know how other parents could use them in your home.

02:55

But I think your story is actually interesting to start off with like, because I think you also went through your own journey with your own child, which kind of led you to this. So can you, can you, share that with us?

Sarah FisherGuest03:05

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm a solo adopter, so I've got a now. He's now 17, which is a scary thought.

Dr KesselHost03:14

Time flies.

Sarah FisherGuest03:15

So I really does fly. I'm like, oh, I'm 17 already and it was really tough. When he first moved in, you know, he had huge levels of trauma and he's also neurodivergent. He has ADHD and autism. There's only recently been diagnosed because the trauma was hiding it and he was masking incredibly well. So we've kind of you know it's been bubbling away. We're kind of like always those has he, hasn't he? What's going on? And post COVID it became very obvious that he was definitely neurodivergent in terms of being autistic and ADHD. But those first few months when he moved in, I was it was, it was awful.

Dr KesselHost03:53

How old was he, if you?

Sarah FisherGuest03:54

don't mind my asking when he moved?

Dr KesselHost03:55

in. He was seven when he moved in.

Sarah FisherGuest03:57

Okay, and that's kind of where he's all seven year old, I have to say, was very small for his age, which in some ways was great because I could pick him up and carry him around, which you can't always do with a seven year old. But he was wearing kind of. I suppose he was five year old height, so he was much smaller. He had incredible big emotions. We had huge meltdowns regularly. He was quite. He was physically very aggressive, very aggressive with his meltdowns, not because he's not, as I'm sure your daughter is, an amazing kind, caring child. The emotions were so big and he didn't know how to express them. And our kids don't do they. They don't have that knowledge. You know, we're in our mid twenties before we can fully self-regulate. We can't be asking a six, seven, even a 15 year old to totally self-regulate themselves. But he really couldn't.

Dr KesselHost04:46

And interestingly, with with neurodiversity and with trauma as well. I mean it's it's proven through brain scans that their brains actually, in terms of self-regulation, are about 30 to 40% behind their peers, so they actually physically aren't able to. You know absolutely.

Sarah FisherGuest05:05

And I I think you know this is 10 years ago on knowledge of attachment to trauma, neurodiversity just wasn't where it is now the neuro side there and the way it is now and I didn't know what to do. You know, I tried everything. I'd worked in schools for years, not teaching, but on the non-teaching side I'd been. I was a mentor with the Princess Trust in the UK. I'd been out to Kosovo after the war and work with kids out there. I spent my whole life working with kids in different fields and thought, oh, be fine, I could do this, no problem, this coating will help. Oh man, how wrong was I. I mean, I couldn't have been more wrong.

05:43

And I remember, before my son moved in, saying to the social worker no, I never shout, I'm young kids all the time. I've never shout at their child. And my son moved in the screaming banshee, appeared from somewhere and I was like Whoa, where's she going? Wow, what's going on? And it was. It's actually quite scary for me as the parent, kind of going, I don't know what to do. I actually, and I'm struggling to stay calm because, as you're probably you know, no, when your child is escalating and it's constant and they're really angry and just shouty. It's really hard to keep yourself as a parent regulated and to be able to respond to them in a calm way and after about it wasn't about nine months after he moved in of some of the worst behavior I couldn't you know, and really really tough. We were incredibly lucky. I'd say his school were phenomenal. They couldn't. They got us through. They got us through to that point without them.

06:39

I don't know whether we would have made it the support from them. Genuinely, I will be forever grateful for the head teacher and his and his classroom teachers and the tea at actually the whole school, everybody at the school.

06:50

And that's lovely, because that's an unusual story, you know it was a really small school and they, I mean to the point where they would ring me to check I was okay during the day, you know, because they knew like what happened in the morning and I mean we were, we were often late for school, despite getting up at 5 in the morning. You know, like how can you be late.

Dr KesselHost07:08

We've been up three and a half hours.

Sarah FisherGuest07:09

We're still not making it to school on time this is ridiculous, but it kind of went on like that and I was trying to find a way through. I tried all the, all the stuff you know rewards and consequences, and the shouting and the not shouting, and the and the pushing and not pushing. But do you mean encouraging and the not encourage? I tried everything I could think of bribery, reward charts, you know, you name it, I done it, and nothing seems to be changing. And I was like there's got to be a better way, that there has to be something that worked. And when you adopt in this country, you, until the adoption order goes through, you have social workers working with you all the time, and after about eight months it was literally it was in the December. So we'll come in nine years ago. What about nine years ago now? She gave me this piece of paper and she said here I found this course, and then the after what it is, do you want to go my help? And it just talked about violence.

Dr KesselHost08:01

I was like I'm there, whatever I'm there, get me there.

Sarah FisherGuest08:03

Okay, I'll go. And I went up to London it was a one day workshop Because back then that was the only help that was around and I remember sitting in a room with I'm guessing, 50 odd other parents, maybe more. You know your memories a bit like vague. I came away a thinking wow, oh, this is life changing, this is what I need, I've got it. I know what I need to do, but also feeling really lucky. Feeling really lucky I'd found this when he was only what he was eight. At that point he was a that I didn't have a teenager putting knives towards me, that I wasn't. I didn't have anything like physically nothing had been broken. My kitchen was still in one piece, you know, I didn't have holes in my just actually, and I thought that's wrong. I shouldn't feel lucky. I haven't had those experiences.

Dr KesselHost08:53

And I came away. You could see that trajectory if there wasn't something to stop it in the room where they're.

Sarah FisherGuest08:58

That's what their experience was, and so I felt lucky that I found this when he was so young, that I found it early enough, before things, and I genuinely came away with I can change this. I can change what's going on for us at home. I've got it and I came away with my notes and I remember reading there again on the train on the way home, going right where do I start? What do I do first, and I just started putting it into practice, the bits I could do, as I mean literally as I could. I wasn't getting it right, because we never do when we're trying to change our you know our own behaviors and of course, our bodies by this point, are already on heightened alert. You know when, when you're experiencing that as a parent, your body is really heightened, so actually it goes into a reaction. Even if your brain's going, it's like, hey, I don't, you know, I want to respond differently. I start putting it into place.

Dr KesselHost09:45

That was the end of January, so when you say putting it into place for the, for listeners out here who don't know nvr at all, can can you share with us, like what is it and what? What are you supposed to do and what are you going to put in place?

Sarah FisherGuest09:59

So there are. I'll tell you my school of thought around it and how I've developed it, because I've changed it to adapt for neurodiversity, because some people teach it in a way that doesn't work for neurodiversity and trauma.

Dr KesselHost10:09

Well, neurodiversity is is what the podcast is about.

Sarah FisherGuest10:11

So that you're preaching to know your brains work differently you know they work differently.

10:17

So the most important thing actually is, as parents, we're looking after ourselves. If we're not looking after our own emotional and physical health and we're not connected to our own emotions, how can we help our child connect to this? How can we help them regulate in that moment? I don't know about you, but I know when I'm tired, when I'm stressed, you know, if I haven't eaten properly, I'm more grumpy. My patience is less. You know all of those things that impact how we respond to our child. So for me, that's the kind of the baseline. We have to be putting ourselves at least on our list in terms of doing something for ourselves.

10:52

After that, the focus, and like the central pillar, is really around parental, what called parental presence, so being really present with our child in a physical and an emotional sense. So we all know that we might spend all day with your child, you might be with them all day, but they haven't got your undivided attention all day. It's not possible. It's not because we're parenting badly, just because it's not possible, you know. And so it's around finding ways where you create a true connection with them. But it might be 10 minutes of sitting on the floor playing trains or watching Lego, but you put your phone down, you put your book down, the telly's off, whatever, and it's just you and your child, totally focused on whatever your child wants to do. So I know, it's that connection.

11:39

Yeah, it's that connection, it's that attention. It's not I want to go for a walk, so you're coming with me for a walk, that's what we're doing, it's what would you like to do right now. And it's showing interest in them and absolutely, you know, sometimes that means watching the same episode of a TV program for the eight millionth time. You're like, oh, I can't watch this again, it's so boring. But if that's what they want to do, that's what you do. Because when we show interest in our child, when we show time, when we show them we want to be with them, their self belief, their self love they're all of those things increase and actually that's a really positive thing. If you like yourself, if you know that you are accepted for who you are, you start to believe in yourself more over time. And when they get that undivided time, they also start opening up and talking about things.

12:24

But it can take weeks or months, depending on your child, to get to that point where they start saying, actually, mum, this happened at school and I'm not happy with it. But it's that spending time with them, so that presence raising and also showing them throughout the day that you recognize their emotions. So I can see that you're really worried about something now, or I can see you're getting really angry because whatever's happened has happened. Or I can see you're really happy that you're really enjoying playing with your toys and helping them to see that you see their emotions, that you recognize them and that it's OK. Because we all know being angry is OK. It's not a lovely emotion, it's not one we all want to feel, but it's OK, it's a normal emotion.

13:09

What isn't OK is maybe the explosion that comes down comes with that anger, if it's dangerous towards somebody else or if it's rude, because sometimes those meltdowns become quite violent and aggressive and that's not OK because it's not safe for the child or whoever's around them. But the emotion itself is OK. So when we're raising our presence, we're saying I see you as you and I accept you for who you are. I'm here to help and support you and show you that I love you, whatever, whatever's going on, I love you. We absolutely have boundaries around what isn't acceptable. You know it's not about saying just let them get away with whatever it is they're doing. That isn't acceptable. But it's about holding those boundaries with true and genuine connection and acceptance of who they are. And that's the fundamentalist, with the central pillar of it. And so many parents, when we work with them and when I work with them, when we raise our presence, things start to change. There's that kind of ripple effect.

Dr KesselHost14:09

I think it was also really powerful for me is because I felt so out of control in the situation with my child and I couldn't control her. My authoritarian parenting toolbox was not working at all, you know, it was useless.

Sarah FisherGuest14:26

That's really disempowering, isn't it? As the parent use them, you know what? Yeah, you're then like what am I supposed to do my child's in control?

Dr KesselHost14:33

This isn't right, oh look.

Sarah FisherGuest14:34

And, of course, then you start getting all the feedback around you. Well, if you were strict, if you were harsh, if you did this and you're like, don't you think I've tried that?

Dr KesselHost14:42

No. And then you look at other children at the same age and they're you know, they're making their lunches, they're cooking dinner, I mean you know. The list goes on and you're like, yeah, so I thought it was really powerful that you know you, your first step, kind of, is to take it you. You know all the parenting classes out there. They they're about how you can help your child's condition, but this kind of says you know what you need to change yourself first off, and, and the only person you really have power to change really in life is yourself. You know so and and it's not easy because, like you say, you're in that heightened emotional state with your child they know how to trigger you and it's almost like a dance that you've choreographed before, that you know the flame goes and then you both go and it is the norm.

Sarah FisherGuest15:29

So actually both of you are so used to that norm that it's hard to change it. But if you think about, as you said, we can only control ourselves. We can only decide how we respond. Okay, sometimes our body takes over, but we can only do it. If we respond differently, we get a different response. Yeah, yes, it takes time, but we get a different response. And so when we remain calm, when we help them and I often talk about Harbour walls, we're our child's Harbour walls we keep them safe. So when they've got big emotions and they're scary and they're big, and they don't know what to do, we're putting kind of Harbour walls around them and saying I've got you, I've got this, it's okay, I'm here for you, I can help you manage this, don't worry, we've got this together. And that's when they're, you know, when we think about de-escalating. So there's issues where they are going up, when all their emotions are heightened. If we go up with them, as you said, we're just adding fuel to the fire and it all just goes horribly wrong.

Dr KesselHost16:25

And you have some of your worst parenting moments. If I'm honest, you know.

Sarah FisherGuest16:28

Absolutely, and that's when you say something, you regret or you do something. I grounded my son for his entire life in the heat of an argument. One day I'm like what was that about?

16:38

You know I mean to be fair it worked brilliantly as a de-escalation strategy, because he just stopped and looked at me and went. What I was like, yeah, that's a really bad idea. You know, you just say stupid things in the heat at the moment because your brain is totally frazzled. Because if we can stay calm and say to such a I've got this, I'm here, I can help you process these different emotions and these big emotions and these scary emotions and kind of absorb them for the child and help them to process it in a safer way. Then they start to feel safe and actually they go down when they're ready as well and their body starts to feel safer.

Dr KesselHost17:17

How would you practically advise a parent to do that?

Sarah FisherGuest17:22

So in the moment, the thing to remember is we're focusing on our regulation as the adult and through that we're helping our child to regulate. So we're co-regulating them. So we're not trying to, we're not telling them to calm down, as you said earlier, aren't you? They don't know how to. It's completely put that phrase you just need to calm down. It's one of the most useless phrases in the English language.

Dr KesselHost17:46

Or take a breath. My daughter like, if I say take a breath, I might as well be like lighting you know, lighting a mat she's like I'm not going to take a breath Absolutely. And I have to be honest, when she tells me to take a breath, I have the almost exact same reaction, because when you're in that you can't, you can't.

Sarah FisherGuest18:06

Yeah, I mean my son de-escalates me now because we've done it so many times that if I'm the one going up which you know does happen sometimes he now uses all the strategies on me and there's part of me that's really proud. It's like, oh, he knows what to do, isn't it amazing? It's like, you know, because I'm like, don't you de-escalate me? And it's really interesting the response you have in your own body. But in the moment, as the parent focus on your regulation and that will be what works will be different. So you're going to have to like it's a bit of trial and error to find out what works for you. So things that work for me are I love a bit of humor and as does my son. So, being a bit silly, doing something silly, you know, trying the latest TikTok dance, saying something silly, whatever it is, speaking in a silly voice, those things just help me regulate and actually they help my son regulate, because humor works for us but it doesn't work for everybody and definitely don't use it if you're just at point You're like they're just about to explode. Avoid humor like the play, because nothing is funny at that point. Nothing is funny.

19:10

But that works sensory stuff. So, particularly if your child's neurodivergent sensory is going to be a big thing for a lot of them. So you could, deep breathing does work, you know. Blowing raspberries can work, jumping up and down on the spot, kitchen disco, you know, if they like music, turn on the favorite music and just have a bit of a boogie, because that movement is getting everything flowing, it's getting rid of the stress hormones in their body. What else works? Things like push-ups against the wall, singing if they like singing, anything like that. Giving them something chewy or crunchy to eat, having it yourself, because how often if you go and get a biscuit or get, you know, a carrot stick to eat, the children are going what are you eating? And if nothing, they might ask for it.

19:58

But that distraction also can help just take the edge of things as well. So anything sensory, even just giving them something to fidget with, you know, unless they're a thrower, if they like throwing in the heat at the moment, don't put something in their hands because it's coming back at your head at some point. So don't put something in your hands, in their hands. But anything sensory like that can. Really. Even having a drink, you know, a drink through a sports bottle, that sucking action or a straw, that sucking actions really good for regulating, so those kind of sensory things in the moment can help. You want to try and catch them as early as possible, though, because if they're too far into the meltdown as we know as adults, once you're really angry it takes a while to come back down. So you want to try and catch them before they're really escalated.

Dr KesselHost20:54

And you had a really great example in your book which, when I read it, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know if I could ever do this. It was about, you know, I think, turning off the. It was wanting to turn off the TV for something, and do you remember it? You want to share that example because it's kind of like for me as the authoritarian parent toolbox. It was really putting that aside.

Sarah FisherGuest21:15

And I read it and I was like, really, but think about when you're watching your favorite TV program and you're sitting there and you're totally grossed and it's in the middle of the program. If I walk in and say, switch that off now, we're going out. Most of us as adults wouldn't be that happy because we don't want to switch it off, because we're totally engrossed in the program. Except we expect children to be able to do exactly that. So if you walk in and say switch it off now, that's what's happening. You are going to get a little bit of back chat. If you're lucky, that's all you're going to get.

21:49

Otherwise you're going to get a big explosion If we go in and sit with them for a little bit, start getting their attention away from it, engage with them, then we can start to be the way I was saying. When this finishes in 15 minutes, can you turn it off for me and do something with them? Before you're asking them to go and do something calm, it's the same if you're asking them to come off their Xbox or whatever game they're playing, or their iPad, whatever. They're heightened If we're asking them to come from that really zoned in focus of I'm watching this TV program, I'm playing with that game, they're totally zoned in on it and they're really heightened at the same time.

22:28

Come and sit with me at the table quietly, which is a lot of kids' idea of sensory health sitting at the dinner table eating dinner with their families. You can't ask them to go from one to the other calmly because they just can't do it. They're bodies in the wrong place to be able to then sit at the table. If you can sit down, talk to them, engage with them before you ask them to come off the TV program or whatever it is, and start to just broaden their view again and start to get them thinking oh, there's a world away from the screen. Thank you very much. I didn't realise that existed. Then you can get them a little bit calmer and do something while you're walking to the table or whatever it is you're going on to do. So you move them from one state to another, because I'm quite grumpy when you tell me to tell my favourite TV program off in the middle of it, or you come and talk to me in the middle of it. I don't like it, don't be excited to do it.

Dr KesselHost23:21

It's that transitioning, isn't it? From one scene to another, and also, maybe doing something you don't want to do when you've been doing something you really enjoy doing.

Sarah FisherGuest23:34

None of us like doing that. We're all great at procrastinating if we've got to go and do something we don't want to do.

Dr KesselHost23:41

Going to bed for my daughter and it goes from one thing to the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing and I'm like, ah yeah, but now we've developed, we sing a song, the kukaracha, or kanga, kanga, kanga, and the dog and all of us. We have a dance move upstairs and she enjoys that.

Sarah FisherGuest23:59

It is that movement isn't it. And kids will wait until you say it's time to turn the light out and they have to tell you everything that happened all day and you'll realise you've had all day to tell me all this stuff. Why are you doing it right now? But that's interesting. That's a great diversion tactic. We all know that one. But also when you're present more during the day, some of that bedtime processing that they need to do comes out in those moments of presence during the day. So when you're sitting on the floor playing Lego with an, even if you're like ugh God, I'm so bored doing this, some of that processing that's happening at bedtime when they suddenly need to talk to you also are happening in those moments. So those bedtime things there's less that needs to be processed because they've done it some of it earlier in the day.

Dr KesselHost24:40

I guess the proof was in the pudding for you, because here you have this child and you came back from London on the train with your notes and you put it into practice. What happened?

Sarah FisherGuest24:54

So there's no magic wand, just if anybody's going. Oh, I found a magic wand that will happen overnight. It doesn't. Does it Change. Does not happen overnight, it takes time.

Dr KesselHost25:04

Especially for yourself, your own self change.

Sarah FisherGuest25:06

It's very, very hard and that's why it takes time and I remember putting stuff into practice and sometimes I've not done what I wanted to do, I did lose it, I did end up shouting I still do sometimes now because, whatever reason, we're human, we're human, yeah. And I started putting into practice literally just the bits I could A work out and B remember and B was in a place to do so. I tried to think more about presence and doing the things he enjoyed, which I was quite present. But I'm not very good at like imagine replay, that's not my thing, but I realized I had to really focus on it because it's what he enjoyed doing. I started really managing those escalatory situations differently and they started to reduce. It took by the May things were really really different at home, much, much calmer, much calmer. By the September that's about eight months later, when I trained professionally and like retrained, we didn't have any violence at that point.

26:07

And it completely stopped and since then I mean I'm not going to tell you I have a totally calm 17 year old, that would be a lie. He has his moments, 100%. I have my moments that we have a really good relationship on the whole. Yeah, he struggled a bit in the last 18 months, as lots of kids have post COVID and going back out into the world, but he's doing really well and we have a good relationship on the whole and he does talk to me about what's going on.

26:33

I use a lot of humor because it works in this house. You know it doesn't work everywhere, but I've continually worked on, I suppose myself and I think that's one of my big messages for us as parents we have to think about what triggers me and how do I respond in that moment. And I might get intrigued because my son won't sit at the table and eat in the way that I think he should sit at the table and eat because of the way I've been brought up. If that's a trigger, then what's the reason for it triggering me? Does it matter if we don't have dinner at the table every night? No, Our connection time's at a different time. So for us actually, I can't remember the last time we ate at the table together.

27:14

I mean apart from like we go to restaurants and Christmas dinner and those kind of things. The rest of the time, no, but we have our connection time at different times. That works for both of us and it's understanding as the parent, understanding your own triggers and thinking, okay, why am I responding the way I am? In those moments, you know what is it about me? And when we can start unpicking that, which isn't a quick process, then we can really see the significant long-term change with our child because we start to respond differently. I don't think we can ask our child to respond to their own triggers differently if we're not prepared to do the same. You know, if we're not prepared to do that, then what? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely.

Dr KesselHost27:55

It's not fair to them too. And also I mean, I felt this myself that my behavior is being modeled by her to a degree as well, both of our emotional dysregulation. So I'm perpetuating something I don't want to perpetuate. So, until you can model the behavior and it can't be fake, because kids know when you're faking it, which is terrible, so this is not something you can fake it till you make it kind of thing you really have to and, like you said, it doesn't always work, but I can't remember who said this. But there's like the 30, 70%, if you can get it right, 30% of the time you're doing. And I do have to sometimes say that to myself. And even she will say to me mommy, you did really good, like if she's having complete tantrum before bed and I've kept calm, she's like mommy, you've done really well, like yay. Other times I'm just like I'm sorry.

Sarah FisherGuest28:46

But we do get it wrong sometimes. You've got to love kids. When they're so well done, you're just like, really, really. I'm glad you're a proof. But I think there's also a power in modeling when we get it wrong. You know it's okay to get it wrong sometimes, because none of us is perfect, and this is what you do.

29:06

You know, and I'm not a big believer in making kids say sorry. The words I'm sorry are meaningless if there's not genuine feeling behind it and meaning. But having those conversations afterwards, when things have calmed down, and saying how are you feeling? What's going on for you? I can see you're really upset. How can I help?

Dr KesselHost29:25

You know, I thought it was really powerful, yeah.

Sarah FisherGuest29:29

How can I help you when you're feeling like that next time, you know.

Dr KesselHost29:33

And I liked what you said in the book because you said you know, don't talk through, move it through with them and say you know your insights of wisdom or you know, this is, you know, this is what I'm here to teach you, because actually that doesn't help anything, you know. So to stop talking and to do what you just said there, that reflective listening, and that you know, hearing their emotions is so important, and I think sometimes we feel, as parents, we're supposed to impart this wisdom on our children.

Sarah FisherGuest30:01

It doesn't help. It doesn't and we go into lecture mode if we're not careful. Yeah, and we're not. You know they're not listening anyway, you're just lecturing and you're feeling better as a parent going. I've told them what to do. Thank you very much. I've solved my problem and your child's going. Whatever, I didn't listen to a word of it. So it's fine. You know it doesn't move you forward. And then I think if we work with them, they understand and they can actually use that. Then, as they get older, gradually they start to go. Oh, actually, if I'm in this one, I can do it like this and we're teaching them the skills they need. We're not just imparting knowledge and what works for me wouldn't work for you and what works for my son. We're all different and I think part of really accepting who our children are is helping them understand who they are and being really comfortable in their own skin.

Dr KesselHost30:46

Yeah.

Sarah FisherGuest30:46

Being able to advocate and say, actually, that doesn't work for me. I need this, please. You know, or I'm feeling really like this in a classroom, I need to step outside for 10 minutes If the school be supportive, you know. But it's all of those bits and those conversations for me have, I'm going to say, being a game changer, and I truly believe they are, and for so many of the families we work with, they are game changers. They're scary to have sometimes because you don't want to go back and mention it again because it might all flare up.

31:15

But actually, if you do it in the right way, if you go in and say I'm really sorry, you're upset earlier on, you know, can I help? Hello, do you want to talk about it all? You know what was happening or what could I do. Well, you know it would be reflective. It's not that I need to talk to you about what happened earlier on because that wasn't good enough. Well, most of us would let get out of the room if someone spoke to us like that, you know, and we don't want to talk and our barriers go up. So it's really, how do we start that conversation? And it is that reflective listening. It's listening to them, it's working with them, it's helping them, and from that you move forward.

Dr KesselHost31:48

Yeah, and it just changes the whole dynamics is what I found. You know, and I found also the writing of the announcement that you write for yourself as a parent and then you share with your child. I thought that you know and I did this, so for our listeners, basically you write kind of what you want, what you want to forgive yourself for in terms of your you know, perceived bad parenting as a mother and you know, or actual actually. But you know you're very harsh. We're harsh critics as well. I think you know the judgment is high and you know it was painful to write it. I cried and I'm not a cry person, but I let.

32:24

It was like almost lancing the boil and it was necessary to kind of almost you know what we talked about earlier about you're in a heightened state. It kind of got rid of some of that heightened state and then sharing a different version with my daughter was also really important. So I think that's a really and sorry to backtrack in terms of you know what you're sharing with your child, because we hadn't mentioned that you, you know, not trying to change everything you know, or not trying to solve everything, so focusing on one thing versus everything, where you kind of are the shrew like nagging mother that you know is walking around bombshells. That was also really key, so maybe you could talk a little bit about putting. Triaging is the way I would look at from my medical background.

Sarah FisherGuest33:08

Yeah, absolutely so. I just want to pick up what you said about forgiving ourselves, because I think it's so important, because we carry on and we hold it and actually just becomes bigger and bigger and bigger and then it packs more and more things. So forgiving ourselves for the things that we wish we hadn't done, said whatever, is so important, and actually it's a thing we've got. Help our kids learn as well. Yeah, kids learn to let go of those things, and if we can't do it for ourselves, how are we going to teach our kids to do it? So true, I think it's really really important that we do that. And then the triage. I love that word, the triaging things Absolutely.

33:46

We tend to deal with everything all the time, don't we? You know, I've got to sort this out and you've got 28 trillion plates you're trying to spin all at the same time and it just doesn't work. One of them, or all of them, are going to end up on the floor, and if you put them on the floor, that's very different to them just smashing on the floor, because you can't keep control of it. So with this approach, we are basically saying which of these plates am I going to stop spinning and put on the floor, and which one or two am I going to keep spinning and actually really focus on? It's going to be different for everybody. I always suggest to parents write down. So if you want listeners, grab a piece of paper when we finished. Obviously, write down everything that annoys you, you think is unacceptable, is dangerous, is you know all of those things? Get them all out of your head. And it doesn't matter whether you've got four things on the list or like 4,000. I mean, obviously I've seen steam come off parents pens when they write these lists on time. You're like whoa, that's quite a long list, but just get everything out. And if you're parenting as a couple, both of you write the list separately and compare lists, because it's really interesting how you will have different things on your lists and different things will trigger different parents. You might not even know that your other half is triggered by. So it's quite interesting just to understand that.

35:00

And then look at your list or your lists and pull out your top one or two things. What are the things you need to do with first? And if you've got unsafe behaviours, be that self-harm, violence towards others, even a lot of verbal aggression, I'm going to suggest they're on the top of the list because they're not safe and you need to keep everybody safe. That could also be really avoidant behaviour. So if you've got a child who's really, really avoidant, that might be top of your list because that's not necessarily safe either. But those behaviours that go at the top of your list, and then things that I'm going to say, the smaller things now I know it's going to be some parents are about to listen to what I say. That's not a smaller thing, sarah. I can't let that go.

35:46

You need to let them go, for now, literally put them to one side, and so that could be anything from the fact that they come in and they drop their bag in one place and one school shoe in one place and one school shoe in another room and their blazes somewhere else, and then they get undressed and they don't put things in the laundry basket. They put it in the vague vicinity of the laundry basket. If you're lucky, it goes somewhere near the laundry basket where you're shoved under the bed or down the back of the wardrobe or wherever it is. You find it in the dirty plates. That become a science experiment and you're trying to work out what it was they actually were originally, and maybe they don't say goodnight to you in the way they want to. Maybe they eat with their fingers at the table, maybe they are, I don't know they won't do their homework.

36:27

Another one that comes up a lot of the time. All of those things you want to try and ignore them for now, so it's not to say you don't ever say to them could you put your dirty clothes in the laundry basket? But you don't nag If they don't do it, you just leave it and you get on with it. I know that's really hard. It's really hard not to nag with those things You're like oh, how hard is it?

Dr KesselHost36:48

And talking about those earlier triggers, they're alignment.

Sarah FisherGuest36:52

Yeah, you know wet zombie towels left on the bathroom floor. Especially how hard is it to hang it up afterwards?

Dr KesselHost36:58

you know. Or when they get it so close to the laundry basket but not in the laundry basket. You know yeah.

Sarah FisherGuest37:05

Or on top of the laundry basket, because opening the lid and putting it in apparently is too much of effort yeah, too much, and you're just like I don't understand.

37:11

But those things. What happens is when we nag about them, our children are like ugh, they're going on about it again, and actually a lot of them. It makes them not want to do it even more and it raises our you know our hackles. We get more wound up, we're more likely to get triggered, we get more frustrated, we get a little bit more and that doesn't help. When we stop talking about those or maybe mention it once and then go quiet, those little things often either stop happening if it's something you want to stop happening, or start happening if that makes sense. So if it's put clothes in the laundry basket, things actually start appearing in the laundry basket and you're a bit like whoa, that's a bit weird.

37:50

There's something in the laundry basket, but maybe those things you don't want them to do, like leave the plates under their bed, let's place start coming downstairs. You know, it's those little things because we're not constantly going on and on and on and often when we start picking at those smaller and inverted commas things, we end up with the bigger behaviors because we've lifted the whole atmosphere in the house by our I'm going to say nagging, because we are nagging basically by our nagging, by our feelings of frustration. They're not happening. We raise our child's hackles, we raise ours and we just end up in a big meltdown. So when we're not dealing with the smaller things for now and all of our energy goes on, when they are dysregulated, they're not violent, for example, they're not really shouty, whatever it is Then we A stop those behaviors from happening because they're not safe. They need to stop. But the smaller things often start to reduce as well, almost like a side effect. Positive connection, yeah.

Dr KesselHost38:47

Yeah, and it changes, as you said, it changes the atmosphere. It changes the atmosphere for you as well.

Sarah FisherGuest38:52

Yeah, it really does. If you have a child who is demand avoidant in any way, the more you ask them to do something, the more it's a demand.

Dr KesselHost39:03

Yeah.

Sarah FisherGuest39:03

The less they're going to do it and it's those things. But it's very hard as a parent sometimes to let those things go, because maybe that's how you were brought up, that you just did those things. It wasn't a debate, you just put your laundry in.

Dr KesselHost39:16

Or you got smacked if you didn't.

Sarah FisherGuest39:17

Yeah, literally. So it was like there was no question that you wouldn't do them. So it's very hard to unwire it and go okay, it's all right if my child doesn't do it, it's all right if I pick the damp towel up off the floor and hang it up. It's not the end of the world.

Dr KesselHost39:32

And you have to kind of disconnect that in your mind because for some reason or the way you've been raised, it does feel like you're not setting your child up for success because they're not doing any of these things. But actually you need to disassociate that because actually you're being ridiculous. If the towel stays on the floor or makes it onto the rack, is not going to determine their success in life. And somehow that's what it feels like as a parent.

Sarah FisherGuest39:54

It does, and those are the things that it makes so much different. But actually, when you let them go, your levels of stress in your own body just drop. It's not like. Why am I starting an argument over that Something so small? I'm like, look, it's in the vague vicinity of the laundry basket, that'll do. And I just think why, why, why Was I starting an argument? Because it doesn't change things. It doesn't mean the next time around they do what you want them to do and it just creates more frustration in the house.

Dr KesselHost40:24

Yeah, Actually, when you don't do it you have more time for positive connection.

Sarah FisherGuest40:28

You know when you're not nagging them all the time. You know when I say now to my son, I'm about to do the washing, can you do me a favor and make sure everything you need washing is on the landing, please? And he's like it's in the laundry basket, I'm like just go and check your bedroom for me, will you mate. And he comes out and I'm like with an arm load of clothes. I'm like, and they win the laundry basket, and he sort of lets me go. Yeah, maybe not, but we do it in a jokey way. And actually I'm like no, your clothes are going to get washed. You know, was it anything? Actually, because I don't pick stuff up off his floor, because I'm like I never know whether you want it washed or not, and you know what they're like I was about to wear that.

41:05

You're like really Could have walked out the house by itself. It's so smelly, you know, but it's finding that way of doing it that creates a positive connection and doesn't escalate things in the house, because none of us want to live in a stressed house. No, and it's not good for us.

Dr KesselHost41:21

It puts you at a different level than when you do go and address those the big areas that you're talking about, the thing that's your number one or your number two priority that you want to accomplish. It puts you both in a different place.

Sarah FisherGuest41:33

Yeah, it does. And you know, when you're focusing on those priorities, that's where you're de-escalating. Every time it happens, you're having those follow on conversations and say, look, you know when you are really angry, how can we help you so that you're not hitting, shouting, throwing things, whatever it is you're doing, because that's not safe or self-harmony. You know, whatever it is, we need to help you find safe ways of expressing your emotion. So all of your energy goes on managing those things and, you know, changing those. And it, yeah, it takes time and it takes effort from us as parents, and that's the difficult bit. If you are running on empty, it's really hard to do. It's really hard to do.

Dr KesselHost42:11

I know for me, like our, you know, getting our sleep into a better place was really important for both of us in terms of our emotional regulation. And then also learning that for me, I need to exercise so that I can be calm. And you know, it's interesting, my daughter, I hurt my knee and I couldn't run and she's like, mommy, you need to start, you need to run even if you're near her. So I got a, I got a bike, but you know it's, you know and but what's good is she's, she's realizing it and then she's saying to me well, maybe I should go on the bike, maybe I should do these things, like we're in it. It changes kind of the shift from a lot of parenting books, a lot of parenting advice, a lot of parenting classes, because in all of those I found that it's more like this is what we need to change about the child, whereas in this methodology we're in it together, kind of changing ourselves together and we're both growing. And I think that's a unique thing about NVR that I experienced.

Sarah FisherGuest43:09

Absolutely. You know, I truly believe we cannot ask our child to do anything we're not willing to do ourselves. And you know so many of us as parents and I'm not saying my parents didn't parent me really well, but they parented in a different way, it was a different generation and you know our children need us to help them. Particularly post pandemic, they need extra help with their emotional health, their mental health. We're living in a really different world. They're growing up with technology and social media that, thankfully, you know, we didn't have to grow up with and it is putting different pressures on them. They need us to really support them with their emotional development and teach them how to do it, how to grow up to themselves and do it in a very different way and be more open about their emotions. But if we're not doing that, we can't ask them to do that.

Dr KesselHost43:56

Absolutely. And you know, with neurodiversities their emotional self-regulation is already behind and you know there is that learning process. But the amazing thing is is when you put that support in place and you do allow them to mature at their own pace with you, then the magic happens, you know, and it no longer becomes a barrier.

Sarah FisherGuest44:15

Yeah, absolutely, and I, you know, I think the world needs neurodiverse people. They have a way of seeing it and a way of processing stuff that is just phenomenal and different, and we need that difference. You know we will. If we were all the same, life would be pretty boring and we wouldn't have achieved everything we need to achieve.

Dr KesselHost44:32

And you know it's interesting is everyone's like oh, it's such a, it's such a hot topic now. But actually, if you look back in history, there's a lot of hot historical people who had neurodiversity, you know Leonardo da Vinci, john F Kennedy, john Lennon, to name but a few. Einstein. Do you know what I mean? So I mean, but they had to kind of keep it secret, you know, whereas now we don't need to.

Sarah FisherGuest44:54

Yeah, and I think you know, I was having this conversation with my son the other day and I just said look, some of the world's biggest entrepreneurs are all neurodivergent, because their brain works in a way that 60% of self-made millionaires are neurodiverse.

Dr KesselHost45:07

60% that's.

Sarah FisherGuest45:10

You know it's the way your brain works Enables you to do things and see patterns that other people just can't do and see, and I said that's a. That's a real bonus, you know, and I don't that sounds awful with bonus, but that's a real positive for me. It's something to see in a really good way that you know. I know some people still see being neurodiverse as a negative and I'm like to me that's huge positive, you know, and actually you just find your unique way of going out in the world and you have that confidence. And if we can help our children Really believe themselves, actually, whether they're neurodivergent or neurotypical, if they can believe in themselves and go, this is what I'm really good at, this is where I'm going. That's amazing, isn't that? That's what we need to do absolutely.

Dr KesselHost45:50

And you look at the, the mental, you know health and the well-being of our children, it's, it's such a, it needs to be such a focus and a party, and I think this Methodology is a great way to grow, both as a parent and as a child. And, honestly, you know, if you were like me and like you, actually you're, you're at your ropes end. Yeah, I mean I, honestly, and you know I, I also went down the untraditional route of being a single parent. I went through IVF and you know I questioned myself. You know, did I make a really big mistake? Yeah, you know, am I actually able to be a mother? You know what was this? A complete cock up of what I've done. You know that I have now destroyed a child's life, but you know that's not the case, thankfully.

Sarah FisherGuest46:38

Definitely not, and I think you know our children hold a mirror up to us. They hold that mirror up with the things we need to work on, and it's whether or not you're willing to work on those things you know, and it's, it's not always that easy.

Dr KesselHost46:52

Yeah, they teach us more than we teach them, I think, at the end of the day. Well, I always Sarah, at the end of my podcast and I have given you some warning because I hate to just bring it on you, but I love to give three top takeaway tips. So you know, what can people really take away and there was a lot to take away in that in our discussion today but what three top tips would you give our listeners?

Sarah FisherGuest47:17

So my first tip is actually how I started. It's put yourself on the list, you know, put yourself on your to-do list Ideally at the top of it, but somewhere on it at least at least beyond your list and make sure you're doing looking after yourself, because Parenting is tough and if you're not topping your tank up and letting the stress go, it'll get on top of you and you'll get to the end of your rope, as we just talked about. So that's my first top tip. My second is Find time every day to spend with your child. Even if it is two minutes at bedtime, it doesn't matter.

47:48

And If you've got two, three, four children in your house, try and spend time with each one of them every day. If you can't, or at least a few times a week when they are getting your undivided attention. And if you've got both of you parenting like if you're two couple house, both of you spend time with each of your kids, because they will have a different relationship. They might talk more to one parent than they do the other. Whichever way, you're creating those strong bonds and you're giving them space to feel safe and talk about whatever they need to talk about. And then, lastly, something we haven't talked about, but that's build a village around you. Build your tribe of people who get it. You know, whether it's listening to podcasts like this, whether it's. You know We've got a free Facebook group of parents who are trying to use this approach, whatever it is. Get that tribe around you of people who get it, and you know it's it's the number one.

Dr KesselHost48:38

It's one of the number one tips. I think that all of the experts that come on this show say Because you can feel so alone and isolated and that doesn't help you in your first tip, right, how can you take care of yourself if you don't have people that can resonate and can have been either walking in your shoes or before our head of you on the journey or behind you on the journey? It's, it's, you know, it's so helpful.

Sarah FisherGuest49:01

Yeah, it really is, and I think we live in an increasingly isolated world where we don't have the communities that maybe we did. How I remember going up. You know all the kids are real, play together, all the parents knew each other. There was that kind of sense of community and certainly where I am, we don't have that in that same way anymore and I think it makes such a difference just to be able to ring somebody who goes just rant. If you need to, it's fine. Actually, I've just done this and this one. Oh yeah, that's a great idea.

49:32

Thank you, because when you're so in it and dealing with something you can't see Literally the word for the trees, and you need someone else who is somewhere, who gets it, who make and listen and maybe just give you that bit of Take breath, take step back. You know, do this, you can do this, I'm back on track. Thank you very much. See you later, you know, and off you go, but that's what we all need. You know, wherever we are on the journey, we all need that, that tribe around us.

Dr KesselHost49:57

I completely agree. Three great top tips and I want to give you a big Thank you for coming on. The Send Parenting podcast.

Sarah FisherGuest50:03

It's been lovely. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr KesselHost50:08

Thank you for listening Send Parenting tribe. If you haven't already, please follow us at Send Parenting podcast on Instagram or Visit us and comment on our website, send parenting SEND Dot com. It would be great to hear from you in terms of what topics or Speakers you would like to hear next on the Send Parenting podcast. Wishing you and your family a good week ahead.