EP 42: Sheep Therapy with EWE Talks (Emma Redman & Pippa Ashton)

Dr Olivia KesselHost00:05

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In today's episode, we will be talking with Emma and Pippa, founders of the not-for-profit Utah spelt EWE, which harnesses the power of animal or should I say sheep therapy, to help their clients. They have a relaxed and open environment where their clients can find hope, self-belief and the power of being present in the moment. Interestingly, sheep have often gotten a bad rap of being the stupid kind of animal, but actually, in reality, their cognitive development is scientifically proven to be far superior than we think. They can recognize faces and emotions, as well as having their own individual personalities. Their reactions are based on how a human presents themselves and they adjust themselves to suit your needs.

01:33

Listen on in this podcast to the amazing work that Emma and Pippa's flock have been involved in, in connecting with neurodiverse children and ultimately improving their mental well-being. So welcome Emma and Pippa. It is really great to have you on the Send Parenting podcast. I enjoyed your lovely animals, as did all the children at the summer fair at the school and it was really great to meet you there, and I am super interested in learning how did you get to the place where you used your sheep to actually benefit children and, I believe, adults as well, to promote their mental well-being and their health. So please let me start with you, pippa. What brought you into using sheep to help people and what was your journey?

Pippa AshtonGuest02:21

So I was a very sensitive child growing up. Anyone just had to raise their voice and I would cry. Everything was very scary. The world was a very scary place, and my mom now says that if I had been a child in this day and age that she would have been seeking the support of cams and what have you. But back then mental health was always very much a taboo, and so we just struggled on with me being a very sensitive child. But as I got older, those sensitivities were being affected by things in the news, things that were happening.

02:58

I worked with children up until very recently, and so that was a trigger for me. Anything that was happening to children was just awful, and I couldn't get my head around why these things happen, and so I had a lot of counselling to try and help me get around all of that and to understand why bad things happen in the world and why not everybody's nice. And that's when I realised things like OCD that I'd been suffering with since child checking doors, feeling like if I didn't do certain things and certain things, bad things would happen. All of these things that had controlled my life so much I had a reason for I've never been diagnosed with ASD or ADHD or what have you. But my, my lads were born they're 21 and 17 now and when they were born both of them have ASD. My youngest also has Tourette's. My eldest is ASD with ADHD traits, but not a separate diagnosis.

04:02

So I started to learn more and more about neurodiversity and then, of course, the more you read, the more you're going. There, you go, there you go, and so, even though I haven't gone down the route of diagnosis, I've been on a journey of sort of self understanding and so, yeah, that's kind of my journey into, you know, the issues that I was growing up with and then the issues that I found with my children, and then the lack of support as well was the other thing. So my children had a lot of, quite a lot of support, I would say, compared to what things. You know the way things are now because there was more money in the system, but seeing Emma go through and she'll talk about her situation in a moment but seeing Emma go through and other families going through the process of diagnosis and the support that's out there, it's it's non existent Six year waiting lists for CAMS, things like that and it's just awful to see the change.

Dr Olivia KesselHost05:01

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing your story. That's a. It's so inspiring, though, to take something that's been difficult and then turn it into what you have with your sheep and helping others. So, emma, tell me a little bit about your story.

Emma RedmanGuest05:17

I'm gonna try not to kind of get onto my soapbox because I'm very passionate, I think it's safe to say, about advocating for Senn and supporting anyone for getting some help. But yeah, no, my story. It's fairly similar in the sense that I spent very many years undiagnosed. I was diagnosed in 2000 and what? Two years ago now 2001 with ADHD myself. But prior to that I had many, many years of mental health issues. The generic GP just put you on antidepressants didn't really make any difference, if anything, I felt worse, but there was no more support out there for me than that.

05:57

I then went on to having three children and over the period of time all three children turned out to have Senn needs themselves. All varying levels of issues and degrees of complexities. That's it. And I think for me the biggest thing is I started to recognize, when I was completing all of their paperwork, some of the similarities within myself. So I started to do a lot more research into that and realized that hugely. You know, I was very much within that kind of mindset of ADHD presented in one way which I think is a very stereotypical way as to which ADHD is seen. But oh my goodness, it is so, so varied and actually, you know, getting the right, getting that diagnosis was just an absolute game changer for me.

06:47

I was medicated properly and, literally, when I say that, my anxiety disappeared. It disappeared, you know. And then I had anxiety once. I was like, oh my God, this must be just what normal anxiety levels are like. You know, I can cope with this. That's fine.

07:03

But I think the main thing as well, for me, one of the biggest lessons I've learned, is the difficulties and the differences between the support that my daughter has had and the support that my son has had with their presenting issues, because my daughter's primary diagnosis was ADHD, still at the age of 14, nearly 15, cams will not see her and they won't even accept that she's got a need. Any support and help that we've given her has had to be done privately. Huge amounts of debt which I'm sure so many parents are late with. As a result, it's only because I had to step up and make some executive decisions, change settings and things like that that I've noticed change my son. He's been a lot more recognized, I think is safe to say, but it's still been very, it's been a battle.

07:50

I mean I'm not gonna bore you with all of that now because that's irrelevant, but the differences has been huge. It's my main concept. So, as part of my journey moving forward, I've always made a really big thing about the fact that I wanted to find ways to empower women to feel that they can take ownership, because in the news there's things like people are over diagnosing themselves and they shouldn't be doing this. But why doesn't someone have the right to an identity? We're embracing diversities within this country, yet you're telling a huge demographic of people that their diversity doesn't matter. It's wrong, irrelevant. That just shouldn't be taken away from them. I get goosebumps and I'm about to go off on a massive tangent, so I am going to stop.

Dr Olivia KesselHost08:35

But I completely I agree with you and it is. There just seems to be this kind of misconception that a neurodiversity can be left at the door, that it's not part of you. I've done shows with people who are talking about eating disorders and how. Oh well, leave that at the door and we'll treat you without that, but it's a part of who you are and it's not separate from you. Yeah, exactly so I think it's a common feeling and I'm hoping things are changing. And I think they are changing. Like Pippa, you were saying, it was very different when you were a child. So things have progressed, but there's still so much further to go. So I think getting on your soapbox there and putting that out there is a good thing to do. So now, how did the two of you then decide to then take the sheep that I met at my daughter's summer fair and use them to help kids, kind of, and adults? I've seen from your website as well. How did that idea come about and how did it create? You talk of my. I'm like you talk.

Pippa AshtonGuest09:41

I'm in the sheep.

Dr Olivia KesselHost09:42

Yeah, I don't know, I'm terrible. There's my. I cannot pronounce anything.

Pippa AshtonGuest09:48

It's a play on words you see, so well, that was just, emma. You doing your counseling, wasn't it? And then thinking you'd like to do some sort of talking therapy walking therapy with alpacas.

Emma RedmanGuest10:00

Well, yeah, I, yes, I'm a third year student counseling student and for a very long time I wanted to use alpacas, and my husband basically vetoed them as being a useless animal on farm.

Pippa AshtonGuest10:09

And they spit.

Emma RedmanGuest10:10

And they spit and basically he doesn't. He's not very good at building that rapport. I think he does that. He does that, so it's different, yeah, yeah, so that was kind of for me. That was the standpoint of like how can we use something different?

Pippa AshtonGuest10:25

Yeah, and he actually happened to tell us about some sheep, didn't he? So that was actually his fault. I'm gonna blame him entirely.

Emma RedmanGuest10:33

But I guess really, when you look at it, you know everyone says but why sheep? But why not? You know why not a sheep? Any animal has that ability and you know we're, as a diverse nation, I should be embracing differences, so why not be different with what we're trying to offer to some people?

Pippa AshtonGuest10:50

So yeah, we cup of tea chat in the kitchen, let's do a silly thing. And here we are.

Emma RedmanGuest10:56

It's gone absolutely bonkers.

Dr Olivia KesselHost10:58

Yeah, it's excellent because you know, you've, you've, you wanted to help people, you had sheep and then you've made the magic happen. So, pippa, in terms of connecting with animals, it you know, when a human interacts with an animal and this is putting my doctor's hat on it does increase dopamine and serotonin in the human being and, as you say, it doesn't matter what animal you're doing this with. Can you explain for our listeners out there how that actually happens? And for those that don't know, so, dopamine is kind of the hormone that affects motivation and feelings of pleasure, and it can be low in certain neurodiversities, like ADHD and others. And then serotonin it interacts with how you feel positive and it makes you feel happy, and in fact, that's that's where they make antidepressants from, is usually a serotonin based antidepressant medication, and what's amazing is that you can get this from your interaction with animals. So please tell us how that happens.

Pippa AshtonGuest11:57

So well, you've said some of the things that I was going to say about the pleasure and the regulation and the wellbeing and what have you? But just by cuddling and stroking and playing with the sheep, you're making those bonds and those connections and it's the oxytocin which then boosts all of the serotonin and the dopamine. So it's it's naturally well being with animals and stroking animals and spending time with animals and being in their presence has been proven for years to reduce stress. I mean, it's why people enjoy having their pet dogs and their cats. And what have you? Just stroking them is so therapeutic and calming and that's really reduces the cortisol levels in people as well. So that's one of the benefits, which again just makes way for the dopamine and the serotonin.

Dr Olivia KesselHost12:47

Yeah, and that's good. It's amazing that that you know that it's it's an animal that does that. You don't need to. You know Swallow a pill, or you know it's it's, it's manufactured being outside as well.

Pippa AshtonGuest12:58

So when you're with the animals, predominantly, you're outside with them. So you're getting all of the good endorphins released and what have you from being in nature having that connection with you know fresh air being physical, you know all that comes with it. So one of the other benefits is so for the sheep, they, they have a fight, fight and flight response. So the sheep that you see in the fields usually run away from you because they used to being sort of manhandled or you know they're worried about prey. So it's actually the flock instinct that works really really well for what our sheep you know do. And that is because by you being calm and self-regulating, they are feeling those emotions. They have a really high cognitive Development and so they can recognize these emotions. It's a as much as they feel the fear and they run away. They those are the negative ones that make them what we usually see in a field.

13:53

But what we in sort of harness in our sheep is the good emotions that they're recognizing. So they're being empathic and they are recognizing when somebody is feeling a little low and they respond accordingly to your Emotions and you know the sort of the vibe that you're giving off. And for you to really Embrace time with them, you have to self-regulate, and you have to, which works really well for the children and and I don't so like because, before you know it, you're actually going into that whole mindfulness approach because you are Naturally self-regulating. You're being in the moment, you're, you know all these good endorphins and what have you are being released, and then they're responding to you. So that's the, that is the reward that you're getting and then, so you know, it's self-perpetuating.

Dr Olivia KesselHost14:45

So, emma, in terms of the the you know we talked about the sheep and what they do, but also nature is really important. As you say, most of these, all of these interactions, probably happen outside. How does nature actually support and promote mental well-being?

Emma RedmanGuest14:59

I think it's actually a you know, it's just as important at the time that's spent with the animals, because I've been having a look online recently and I've just been getting a real vibe for what's going on in the community and some of the statistics and I've joined this Robin network, so meeting up at the Earth trust and discussing with them and it was highlighted to me that one third of UK citizens have no access to green space and which is a shocking statistic. And it's all. It's all part of the bigger picture in terms of what we're doing now and moving forward as well, but it's. It was a some scary statistics as well with when it comes to Some of the new funding initiatives that are coming through with the council about the need for embracing and utilising communities and rural areas and increasing rural football and getting people out into the countryside, because it was a fact that was on one of the mental health nature Pages. I can't remember.

16:00

The web think off of my head Stated that 70% of adults reported that by being out in nature alone improved their mood and made them feel happier, and 49% of the adults stated that it reduced their stress levels. And that is being just out of nature, whether it being coastal, forest, green, with animals. That's kind of covering that whole. It's eco science technical term. I mean I'm not gonna bore and go on a huge amount more with that one, but I think it's. You know, it's the whole package.

Dr Olivia KesselHost16:33

It's not just about it's what we can do with them and that's hugely, that's hugely empowering to individuals, because that's something you can do. You can take a bus somewhere to nature, even if you don't have access outside your back door. So if you are feeling, you know, stressed, anxiety, you know, you know, or to plan as part of your monthly Weekly routine, get out into some nature because of that, those, those positive effects that it has on you. So that's, that's empowering, I think, for people when you hear those kind of numbers, and then, as you say, you add a sheep or two, and so you guys add Sheeps in different ways and different combinations for different organizations and different individuals.

17:14

So, pippa, I think you're gonna share with us about the individual and I was amazed by this the family service that you offer at home for only 60 pounds. I mean it, you know. Yes, that's a lot of money, but it isn't Unachievable, and if people go to an acupuncturist or to any type of alternative health that you know, it's in that ballpark. So I think it is accessible for individuals to have it. And how does it work, though? How does an animal come to your home? I'm very curious to know.

Pippa AshtonGuest17:43

Yeah, we wanted to make sure that everything was accessible to as many people as possible. We we didn't want to make costs so difficult that they wouldn't be able to access it. We want to be able to reach and tailor everything to the needs of each person that we want to see. And the reality is there are some people who just, for whatever reason, cannot leave their homes, and we will talk about a couple, one, one person in particular who later on with you who Couldn't leave his home.

Dr Olivia KesselHost18:09

Why don't you share it now?

Pippa AshtonGuest18:09

Go ahead. Is that okay? Yeah, so one client who comes to us and he's very Sensitive. He's he's 17, so he he struggles With the very high sensitivity to sounds. The sounds of children screaming, say, in a school playground, would make him panic. And so we took the sheep to him. We took, we picked two sheep, we took the two babies, and His parents said that he had never spent so much time outside.

18:39

Normally he would stand in the doorway and and say he wanted to come in in his own garden. This isn't even outside of his home, this is just in his own enclosed garden and he spent an hour Sat outside with the sheep. He actually then walked them out into the cul-de-sac to talk to a neighbor. So he came to the gate of the cul-de-sac and Spoke to a neighbor and introduced the sheep to the neighbor before going back into the garden. And all of those things are things that his parents were just absolutely Mind-blown. Really, because they haven't, he's not able to access anything in a group setting. It's just too noisy, it's too stressful.

19:16

There are people who are out there who are isolated through Medical conditions. They don't have the mobility to get out. They don't have the mobility or the ability to travel, who agrophobic? You know, there's so many reasons why somebody, the elderly people who are just struggling and can't leave their homes, and so we are then bringing the sheep to a time in the truck and we are facilitating that meeting there with them so we can bring all of the same things. We can bring brushes, we can bring some food, we can Walk around the garden anyone only one, in the UK as well.

Emma RedmanGuest19:53

For what we can see, there's nothing else quite like us in terms of we wait to be stood corrected.

Pippa AshtonGuest19:57

But yes yet found anybody that offers this service.

Dr Olivia KesselHost20:00

No, that's amazing. And that's incredible because that that opens up a world to people who have a very shut down, enclosed world. It gives them and and when you challenge yourself like that, that young boy you discussed, maybe the next time, even without a sheep, he feels more confident because you know if you what, if you fire it, you wire it.

Pippa AshtonGuest20:18

So he's got that, you know Well yeah, the add-on to that is that he is now coming to us for sessions. Fantastic, so we you know, twice now the the same Same Experience is now be well, actually he's progressed to sort of an hour and a half wellness session on the farm We've had. We have your track to go past all these sorts of noises. It's, it's Desensitising him. The stable thing is the sheep. No, these are the things that he loves and these are the things that he's connecting with, which means making that world outside of that Not quite so scary, because that is the stable and this is the things just going on, a slight tangent that we want to do with schools and things like that may be helping. Year six is transition from one school to another school by having the constant, the security of the thing they bond with, the thing they connected with, which is the sheep, and then moving over into, say, a meeting at a school and Taking the sheep with them. So sorry, I have digressed a little.

Dr Olivia KesselHost21:26

It's kind of like building blocks. So you're starting, you know you're starting with the individual and then moving out to a, a broader sense, but keeping that constant of the sheep, where they feel that calmness. They feel that they know that they have that emotional regulation, that we spoke about all the different neurotransmitters that are helping to keep them calm, that that just gives them a, a superpower to kind of go and deal with a big change.

Emma RedmanGuest21:49

You I think it's very. It's a really, really powerful tool, isn't it? Yeah, and it's all very client led as well. So it's all of the sessions that we facilitate are led solely by the individual, so we ensure that they have that safe space that we can communicate if they want to. If they don't want us to, then we can stay out of it. We can do as much or as little, but we're taking a lot of time researching and speaking to people and buying ways to like sensory cards, ways, communication cards, pet cards, yes, all finding ways to enable that socializing so that we are on a level pegging with them. We can just be with, yeah, yeah, and we're just trying and exploring different ways of communicating to just make sure that we can be fully inclusive to anybody that wants to access our service, whether it be a neurotypical person or a neurohidropositive person.

Pippa AshtonGuest22:45

And we're talking a lot about neurodiverse because of the podcast here, but it's about everybody.

Dr Olivia KesselHost22:52

We're not pigeonholed into one area, but we have found that there is a huge need within the neurodiverse and the SEN community, yeah, and I mean I also see it with the elderly too, who there was just a terrible statistic on the news today about. You know the amount of people who are alone. So, yeah, I can definitely see it applying to others. And then, how do you grow that further in terms of taking it to charities, taking it to businesses, taking it to schools, because then you've got more people or children? I saw it at the school fair. I thought you did a really good job of it, but it becomes a little bit different. It's not individualized therapy anymore. How does it work in the group kind of setting?

Emma RedmanGuest23:31

Gosh. So there is so many different like spokes to the wheel with how we move forward. It's been very much the way that we've established as an entity has enabled us to remain our complete versatility, so we can slot wherever and be tailored however people would require us to be with them. So I've been kind of in the background, messaging and communicating and sorting out links with charities. So one that we are running a case study on next week is Oxhub, which is based over in Blackbird Leeds and that's been ran through social subscribing and in that one we're working with two different people, from somebody that's reclusive and somebody that is a young carer. So it's like a double, you know, but they're a family group. So we're running case studies within that charitable setting. We have got meetings with the CEO of Aspire coming up with a huge umbrella charity which is based over in Oxfordshire. I think it's nationwide as well, but I know for a fact that within Aspire a lot of the charities there are struggling with undiagnosed diversities, especially going through the young carer charities. So there's a lot of kind of communications about how we can tailor and how we can support. So there is no one set way in which we can support somebody. The focus might be that it is just us, but predominantly the animals are the main source. Obviously, in terms of schools as well we are. So that is just one entity that's kind of trudging along in the background.

25:09

The other one is the education. We have been invited to Tender for alternative provision, which we love the idea of, but I think we're sat on the fence ever so slightly because we really want to maintain that wellness focus. We don't want to be kind of encouraged to go down the educational route. So we are reaching out to schools to try and incorporate wellbeing sessions for small groups of students. So we are kind of saying three children would be a maximum within that time. But on the farm we do have we've got the U Hub which is a bit of a sensory stable which is being undertaken and being developed slowly. There's always well, two members of staff are always the ideal. We're obviously allowing for sickness, which is why we're limiting it three as a just in case, because we don't want to impact on anybody's process and we can work with the schools to focus outcomes so if they are looking for them to achieve something specific, but keeping the focus very much on the child, as it's very much child led.

26:12

So that's kind of one entity that we're working on as well. And the other area that we're wanting to develop is employment and work experience pathways. So we've got a meeting with the lady who is going to help us and look at developing courses for like level two courses focusing on wellbeing and basic husbandry skills, so that those that potentially haven't had such a successful time within the educational system mainstream can come onto our setting and we can support them and facilitate them to achieve a level two of some description. The specifics of that aren't there yet. It's a very much work in progress, but we've very much been taken and kind of ran off within quite a few different areas. So we've taken quite a while to come. We've consolidated three avenues, I think, of area which we're looking to develop, but maintaining the focus of the individual ones for self referrals and working with those that aren't in any form of educational setting. So yes, there's a lot of information there.

Pippa AshtonGuest27:14

Businesses we want to do more along the lines of offer some forms of corporate wellness days or the.

Emma RedmanGuest27:21

We've got the wellness walks. We can run from minimum status. Well, which are? They're good fun. It's organized chaos.

Pippa AshtonGuest27:30

Maybe a BBC Oxford did actually say when we visited this is better than Pizza Friday. So yeah, you know, we'd like to be up there with Pizza Friday.

Dr Olivia KesselHost27:40

Yeah, absolutely, and much healthier for you than Pizza Friday. And it sounds like your walks are a bit of a laugh.

Emma RedmanGuest27:48

And people just want that, you know is that people don't a lot of people don't like stereotypical forms of therapy and a lot of people have tried it.

27:59

I mean, I've worked with somebody who did not connect with any forms of therapy whatsoever, came here and was selective mutism as well as other things initially and you know, even just within like 10 minutes she was sat engaged with animals and as a result you know we've been able to, because I'm not with her as a teacher or a counselor I'm able to say you know what I struggled ADHD to. I've had issues with eating disorders as well, I've had really bad anxiety. But because it's so relatable, because we're the same conditions, our brains work similarly, I guess in a sense so it's. But from that time and just being, they've developed that strength to then go and have that assessment and get that diagnosis. They're here on work experience now, lovely.

Dr Olivia KesselHost28:48

So bear for us as proof is in the pudding.

Pippa AshtonGuest28:52

It's those two examples we've given you. It's just every time we see these improvements in, you know, in people's lives, we're just. This is this is our passion, this is our vision, and we know it works.

Dr Olivia KesselHost29:03

And that motivates that. I'm sure that motivates you and inspires you to keep going. I know it. You know that's what motivates, inspires me, is it to to help one person, or more than one person? And I know you've already shared, shared two stories. Do you have any other stories? Because the story they say says a thousand words of how you've been able to, you know, impact an individual.

Pippa AshtonGuest29:25

I mean what you know we just in the cuddle fields.

29:28

Yeah, you know, we've, we've had a couple of experiences. There's one lad in particular who I actually used to look after in my child binding days and he still he, you know, from 5.30 in the morning he was up saying is it my time in the cuddle field? Is it my time in the cuddle field? He says he wants to be a farmer. He just, he was in the trough in the hay with the child, with the, the goats. He's just, he's a complete.

29:54

He struggles at school. You know, he's on a limited time table. He's eight years, seven years old, possibly eight years old, and he's, I know, I can't remember and he's, you know, he, he's, he's. Parents are looking at sending him to a specialist school because the mainstream is just not working for him. His ability to be able to interact with others it doesn't always go well. He needs lots of sensory breaks and yet when he spends time up here, he is just who he is. He's communicating, he's happy. He goes home and then communicates with his parents. He's feeling he's got self worth and he's, you know, he's not the kid that's in trouble. He's, you know, it's all very positive reinforcement for him, which just boosts his confidence and then he goes home and he shares all that with his parents and it puts him on good footing for the rest of the day.

Emma RedmanGuest30:44

And actually the cuddle field is a bit of a new thing that we're running over the summer as well, where we've got seven dates where we've had a couple already. Well, we're opening up the field that families can book or individuals can book for half an hour at a time, and these sessions are being led by the family. So we are basically facilitating the space. Me and Pip we stay back, we just keep an eye from an animal welfare perspective, but we allow individuals to self run the sessions for half an hour. We've done this so it can keep the costings as low as we physically can.

31:17

But also we've had one girl that turned up who was a mute and left having conversations with us, not wanting to go. Mum had to literally persuade her to leave and she was showing us her ventriloquism skills. She was, which was just amazing. And another that we've ended up having to save hair because the kids can put some of the clips in the coats of the sheep and there was one particular colour which she loved because it matched my hair and we had to save that. So because they're booked in again for the next colour filled at the weekend. So you need to make sure you remember to get that out for her, because she wants to match her colour and we had the lad and his sister come for a little birthday tree.

Pippa AshtonGuest31:56

again, he doesn't engage in anything. They met us at. Young Farmers over in Henley last month, I think it was, and she said I've never seen him engage in anything. She was almost in tears and she said you know, we will come and see you. And she booked for his birthday a wellness session for him, his sister and his grandma and her and they he just he was buzzing. He has limited mobility but he was running up that path. I'm so excited it's my birthday. I'm going to see the sheep.

Emma RedmanGuest32:31

He was also a folly as well.

Pippa AshtonGuest32:33

Very early he was walking the sheep. He was like he gave them a rainbow tail with the little clips that we have. Using the clips also helped with his mobility and again he had such a positive experience and his mum again was just buzzing with and he also recognised, he was able to tell us that he was feeling tired.

Emma RedmanGuest32:53

So we've got a sensory space, we've got two, I say sensory tent.

Pippa AshtonGuest32:59

It's a temporary solution.

Emma RedmanGuest33:01

But we've got loads of sensory toys and things in there and he was sat on the floor playing with all the toys and he got the. We had balls, we had balls, aren't they?

33:11

Yeah, with expressions on them, and he was showing us that he was happy when he came and that he was sad that he was leaving. But he was telling us through the balls, so he was finding ways to communicate with us without necessarily articulating, which is just such a powerful. I mean literally every time we finish a session we're just laughing and laughing and crying.

Pippa AshtonGuest33:32

There's a huge. We need that decompression time between sessions. We always leave time for the sheep to decompress. But also we need to decompress because we've just taken on so much of that sort of emotional. You know, sometimes it's the parents and what they've witnessed when everything else has failed or when everything else is such a struggle to see something so positive it's. I've been there with my own son On a residential. I went with him and he went to a school disco and he struggles with. He struggled with sounds and I had to walk out because I was crying. Sorry, I'm not going to go there now, but that's you know. It was so powerful when you see them succeed at something that every other child seems to find so easy to see that that happen and that's what we're finding parents are seeing is that kind of my child is achieving something and succeeding at something and having a really good time and having a really normal experience, a happy, normal experience, when other things that are mainstream don't always work.

Dr Olivia KesselHost34:33

Yeah, and it's a place where there's no judgment Animals only give you love and a really safe place where I think a lot of the world is not a safe place and there's a lot of stress and trauma and bad experiences that even in their young lives they've already accumulated and struggled through. So to find a place and for the parent to watch their child find that place is magical, you know, and I think what you guys are doing is absolutely incredible and I really want to thank you for sharing, you know, these stories and your emotions with it too. It's really, really lovely. And you know, I think you also have a big love of your sheep as well. And you know, I think you know it was really great the way you've explained how not only does the kid benefit, but actually the sheep benefits as well. And you know, don't worry, you know, right now it's, you know it is.

35:27

Everyone listening on here feels exactly like you two do and it is emotional because we want what's best for our children and I and I you know, I, I my heart is we. You know, until you've walked the walk, you can't experience it, but when you find something that opens that child up, it's like it's, all of your Christmases come at once, you know, and to be able, I mean, how lucky are you to be able to witness this and to witness, you know, this amazing connection that you have, you know. Can I say I'm jealous, you know you.

Emma RedmanGuest36:04

I can't tell you like we are so honored that people are vulnerable with us, because that is. It is a vulnerability and letting people in and holding that safe space for yeah and seeing the trust that yeah, we know and we get it and we feel it, and we are so passionate about making sure that this is accessible to so many people because both oh, I don't know if I can actually see it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost36:30

Yes, yeah, for the, for those of you who can't see you, everyone's crying here, but they're tears of joy. They really are, because it's it is. It is a privilege to be able to open that up, to open up a place where a child feels unadulterated joy, acceptance and love. When life is so difficult, to be able to have that safe place and, as you say, to potentially use that as a transition when, when life gets challenging as well, is is amazing and animals are so Amazing. You know, I wish, you know, I wish people were more like animals to a lot of degrees, because they have unconditional love and not and kids are really good at sensing when someone is giving you unconditional love, or whether there are. You know, and they've.

37:19

You know what, when a teacher asks, are you doing? Okay, there they're. They're not sure. You know, they they know with an animal that they give love, they get love. End of discussion. You know, so it's. It's absolutely amazing and I have to say that you know it's important to also say your animals are very well loved and you take very good care of your animals. So for anyone listening out there, you guys make sure that your animals are having the best welfare as well and really enjoying what they're.

Emma RedmanGuest37:46

Yeah, I mean, I think from the more business perspective side of things we've taken, we've got ourselves licensed with South Oxfordshire District Council to do the mobile element of our service, so that warranted an inspection from them to come out and just make sure that what we are catering with them for them is to where it should be, and actually our vet did say that they are probably one of the 0.01% sheep in the country that are living in luxury. So, and also Deffra, we have all of our animals on multiple movement licenses, which basically means that we have to fit within a certain criteria from from a moving perspective. So if anyone out there knows how agriculture works, it has wondered why the sheep are moving, or quite a regular basis, on and off the farm. That is because we've taken the precautions to make sure that we're able to do so without causing it like a knock on it effect with any of the other animals. But also, this one's a born again hippie and loves all of our animals.

Dr Olivia KesselHost38:51

But so do they sleep in bed with you?

Emma RedmanGuest38:54

They probably would have done if they could have, yeah, but how should we know how well for a protected that would probably?

Pippa AshtonGuest38:59

not be a good idea. I mean they, literally they do have the life of Riley, they they have dry spaces when they need dry spaces. They have lush grass to nor on. They're fed daily. They've got fresh water. They are checked on multiple times a day. There's a slight inkling that anything's wrong are fantastic, that is quickly messaged and he would be out the same day. And he has done actually he's been amazing for us.

Emma RedmanGuest39:42

Yeah, yeah, we've got a local farm that that is basically pretty much our vet in the sense that we kind of adopt.

Pippa AshtonGuest39:49

Yeah, he's, he's part of our crew. Yeah, but when we're working they have regular rest breaks. Their transport we make sure that they are transported in the safest way, the most comfortable way they like. When we went to the school, for example, we we made sure they had rest breaks, we made sure they had shelter so they weren't in the blazing sun. We are watching even those sessions where we are, the cuddle fields, where we stepped back, we are within site. We can see if anything looks like it's if a child's being a little heavy handed or what have you, we can step straight in. Their welfare is absolute, paramount to us.

Emma RedmanGuest40:27

And that's also highlighted within our booking documents as well. We do send out a bit of a kind of safety document things and advising people of what would not necessarily be the ideal thing to do, and also just asking that you know children might be, if they're with parents, to try not to chase the animals, that type of thing. You know just anything that's going to cause any undue stress. And yeah, and we've just, we are covered from every single possible angle to just make sure that our animals are able to self regulate themselves and if they move, away.

Pippa AshtonGuest41:00

If they choose to move away, then that's absolutely their right to step away and there is always usually autumn. There is always somebody sheep wise who wants to come and be with you. Some we, we respect the space that if they decide they're going to go and lay down, then that's fine. I mean, that doesn't mean that somebody couldn't go and sit next to them calmly and they usually quite like that and then the rest of the flock will come and join. But we, if a sheep looks like they are relaxing, then we say we leave those. And you know, you want to play with the sheep and have have a play with one of the more playful ones that are happy to be out with you.

Dr Olivia KesselHost41:36

Yeah, no, that's beautiful and it's a. It's great lessons for kids to learn as well around animals and how to be with animals and to learn to learn that you know and how to interact with animals. So, yeah, it's, it really is. It's been wonderful listening to what you've created and how you are opening up joy for for children out there. If you could think of and I have four warned you of this three kind of tips you can give to parents, and I'll start with you, emma, in terms of your first tip, that you, it's a takeaway tip, basically for people to take away with them when, after they've listened to this podcast.

Emma RedmanGuest42:19

I think a takeaway tip would be that I think again as a parent myself I can.

42:24

There are times when the kids come home from school and you find the very hard work and you know you feel very stressed and oh my goodness, isn't not going to be any easier.

42:33

But I think for me the biggest thing I want to say is you know, those are the times which, in hindsight, I can look back on when you need to not you need to, sorry. It's good to recognize that actually they are the way that they are because of that unconditional love that they're getting from you within that household. The fact that you have that power to offer that space for your child to be able to emotionally regulate themselves Whilst there within your space is actually a power that we shouldn't underestimate. And I think yeah, I say I need to practice what I preach sometimes because I find that very difficult, but I think you know that parent that might think that they're not doing a very good job because their child won't tell them they love them or their child won't interact with them. The fact they are able to be their authentic selves within your space is them telling you that they love you.

Dr Olivia KesselHost43:19

Yeah, that's beautiful, and sometimes we have expectations, and just letting those go and embracing that you're doing a great job for them, that's a really important message. So thank you for that.

Pippa AshtonGuest43:32

Tip number two Okay, mine is find your tribe. I always my life changed when I found my tribe, when I stopped looking at all the other parents in the playground and saying, oh, I should be doing this group with my child and my child should be going to brownies or clubs or you know, whatever it is doing judo. That's not to say we didn't try those things if my child wanted to try those things, but soft place, for example, we're a nightmare. And so my view was find somewhere. And we found a local Sen. Can I mention the name of the place? Yeah, absolutely.

44:09

And then the family hall out near Worming Hall. They were my lifesaver, they were my tribe. I found people who were like us, who had, who understood the difficulties, who understood when my child did not behave in a way that is socially expected and didn't bat an eyelid and in fact they bought me a cup of tea and gave me a cuddle at the end of it, rather than sort of chatting about me quietly to the person next to me to see how they behaved. And actually my children, my sons, could be their authentic self in that place and have real connections with real friends, rather than other children in school who they just never really felt like they fitted in with. They found and they have carried those friendships through, those real friends that they met in those settings, with that tribe of people who accepted them, other friendships that particularly my eldest one has carried through to his adult life and connects with still at 21.

Dr Olivia KesselHost45:06

And I'll include the link to Tom Lee as well, because we've been as well and my daughter left there saying, mommy, I just love it there. Why did we have to go? Because I had a dog at home, so I'm like, and dogs are not allowed there, but you know it is a fantastic place where everyone is accepted. So I will include that because, like I agree, and you know, it's probably the number one top tip of all of my guests is finding your tribe. So yeah, I agree. And now we're on to the final tip. Emma, what is our final tip that you would give parents today?

Emma RedmanGuest45:38

I'm loving the fact that you said take away and we've both gone, because with my HD I really I have loads of stuff up here and I really struggle to Articulate it sometimes. So what I've started doing is I put my thoughts into an AI app and I ask them to explain my brain to me. I think it does Really really good job of summarizing it for me, possibly not the what language that I would use, but I get the gist. So I have had to do that. Yeah, so this I'm reading well, I am kind of vaguely, but this is kind of stemmed from something that I've literally just read online a minute ago, and I actually think that this could be really helpful information that anybody would really benefit, because it's shocked us, I think, isn't it? So I mean, I wanted to sell.

46:24

We're saying that, you know, having a child with diversity is actually, you know, an amazing opportunity For them to shine and bring something completely unique to the world, because it's crucial for us as parents, as anyone, really to kind of acknowledge that Individuals with any form of diversity have just phenomenal abilities as their brains.

46:46

Actually, I don't know, again, if you would necessarily be aware that someone with ADHD's brain works at three times the speed of A neurotypical brain. So we are 4k, not just standard HD, to kind of put it into that kind of perspective. So Also in the UK, one in seven people have a diagnosis of a diversity Diagnosed. We all know the issues with camps and how many haven't been. One in seven. So that's with the figures. Today means that there are nine million six hundred and seventy six thousand six hundred and eighty six people within our communities and within the UK that possess the ability and the potential to make a positive difference with their neurodiversities. And at you talk, we embrace diversity and we want to unlock potential of every single person that walk through our door, because there's a small team with a big tree and as a community we are stronger.

Dr Olivia KesselHost47:46

Absolutely, and you know what it's. Those numbers say it all. It's not a fringe thing, it's a, it's a it and it never has been. Really, you know, if you look at some of the great thinkers Albert Einstein, you know, among others, they you know Salvador Dali, other people who are you know who, who are nerd, thomas Edison they were all neurodiverse. You know what I mean, but they kept it under under wraps. But they, they have created some of the greatest inventions of all time. And when we look to the future and we look at, you know, global warming, overpopulation, all these things that are happening, we're gonna need people that think outside of the box, that think three times faster. You know, we need to harness and and ways to harness, that is, to not crush them down in an education system or crush them down and say you know, leave that at the door. You know.

48:38

I was just thinking about yeah, yeah, yeah, and sugar, yeah, all spectrum, and it's the founder of Ikea, I mean, the list goes on, joe Malone, it goes on and on and on, but sadly there's also a huge bunch of people in prison who are, you know, have ADHD. So you know that there are those and are those, and the thing is, and what you're trying to do and what Others are trying to do is to make sure that the people that have not been supported get supported so that they also can shine and reach their potential. You know, because it's an untapped resource and we need resources and actually with you saying just that.

Emma RedmanGuest49:18

Actually, one of the documents that I actually stumbled across today was the Oxfordshire plan for well-being and health over from 2018 to 2023, and the biggest thing that they kept highlighting in there was the connection with social prescribing and prevention. Now, the fact that none of my children can access CAMs, that is not prevention, and for so many other people that are listening to your Podcast today, that is not prevention. They're listening because they're looking for help. So, quite frankly, this is me not trying to go into my soapbox, but I Like in school grounds. You know schools as being breathing grounds of people who are going to go down that route of Not, it's gonna go one or two ways. Yeah, because we need to be putting that prevention and that time and that effort into our young people. They are the next generation and they have been royally failed. I just yeah.

Pippa AshtonGuest50:15

So I think this is all the passion, this is everything that's behind what we're trying to do, just to make a difference, whatever it may be, to some person, one person and just going back to the school stuff, if we can help One person, one child at school Succeed by having breaks within the day or within the week and spending some time to self-regulate and then learn those skills and go back into the classroom and succeed. That is stopping them from feeling that they are a negative, their life is negative, that they are only naughty, that they're only going to get Detentions and what have you going forward? And then just this self-perpetuating thing of I don't have any worth, which means we're gonna go and look at gangs and we're going to go and look at if I'm the naughty one, I'll just do that anyway and go find other coping mechanisms and then you've got one that's not succeeded and gone the other way my dream is To be you know I'll go, I want to be an unconventional Playground duty person with my sheep.

Emma RedmanGuest51:13

I want to be that person that can entice the children out of the smoking shelters they are masking and those are hiding away and kind of conforming to what they think they should be doing. Who are actually the people that are struggling the most? Yeah, getting hidden in that popular demographic. But it's just in school, going in, yes, and I will get there. I just need a school to buy into my idea which I'm working on very hard.

Pippa AshtonGuest51:34

Yeah, it wants to try us out as the new form of dinner.

Dr Olivia KesselHost51:37

Ladies, I have no doubt that you will make it and in the meantime, you could always just, you know Do the perimeter where they've ditched off school and they're hiding in the bushes having a cigarette. You know what I?

Pippa AshtonGuest51:48

mean.

Emma RedmanGuest51:54

We wouldn't, we wouldn't want that, but we digress.

Dr Olivia KesselHost51:57

It has been an absolute pleasure to have you and it's you know, it's just lovely to speak to someone who's as passionate as me and other and our listeners. You know we are all Invested in changing the world and making sure that kids potentials are realized, and helping the adults along the way is kind of a Byproduct in ourselves, which is fantastic, so it's a win-win. No, it's been lovely having you on the show, so thank you so much for taking the time, and I will have all of the information on my website and also on the podcast notes so people can access you and find out where they can come for these Cuttle opportunities or having a sheet visit at them in their home or all the other wonderful things you're doing so that they can benefit from this as well, because I, you know the magic that we've talked about today. Unlocking a child's belief in themselves is just. It's worth its weight in gold. So thank you, thank you, thank you for listening.

52:51

Send parenting try. If you haven't done so already, I'd really appreciate if you could leave a review on your preferred podcast platform. That way we can be found by more listeners. It helps with their algorithm, apparently. Wishing you and your family a calm week ahead. You.