EP 41: Happiness in Schools w/ Adrian Bethune

Dr Olivia KesselHost00:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, And, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode we will be joined by Adrian Bethune, teacher and founder of Teach Happy, about the importance of happiness and well-being in schools. Happier teachers teach better and happier pupils learn better. It's simple, really. We will discuss student voice and autonomy, even within the national curriculum, making it relevant and interesting and actually engaging pupils' intrinsic motivation, The importance of creating a tribal classroom where we all work together instead of in competition with one another. I love his concepts and I love the way he teaches his classrooms. This is a must-to-listen before we go back to school to kind of reframe how we think about what's important in schools, And I've got to say happiness is the most important thing for all of our children in school.

01:42

Welcome, Adrienne, to the Send Parenting Podcast. It is a real pleasure to have you here today. I love your philosophy that happiness is the key in a child's education. It's really funny we don't measure that. It's not on any off-stead reports and I've never been to a school teacher meeting where they said, oh, your child's really happy in school. Doesn't seem to be a metric that is actually measured. But you know, it is really important And, as you've said yourself, a happy child equals a happy adult, And what more do we want in life than to be happy? I mean it's if you lead a happy life. It doesn't matter if you're the prime minister or if you're a train driver or if you're a teacher. The most important thing is to be happy. So I think that it is so key that we actually focus on that in education and with our children. So it is a real pleasure to have you here today to tell us a little bit about your charity Teach Happy and how you're putting happiness and well-being into the heart of schools. So welcome.

Adrian BethuneGuest02:33

Thank you, Olivia. Yeah, I completely agree. I think, as Aristotle said, happiness is the meaning of life. So my whole idea is that happiness should be the meaning of school as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost02:41

And how do you bring happiness into schools?

Adrian BethuneGuest02:44

I mean, you made it a kind of interesting point that you know we don't. We don't measure happiness typically. Well, a lot of schools don't. I think, increasingly, schools are starting to measure well-being of their students alongside their academic attainments. So, like, my school has been measuring pupil and staff well-being since 2019. And the reason we track it is because it's important to us. Our pupil well-being and staff well-being is in our school development plan. It's like, and it's not coming off anytime soon, it's not something that you achieve And then that's it. Okay, our kids, our staff are happy. Let's do something else now. It's a constant work in progress And so, yeah, i think there's an expression in economics which is you treasure what you measure or you should measure what you treasure.

03:23

I mean, it comes to the same conclusion And if we value, you know, our children's happiness and well-being, then we should measure it and see if the things we're doing in school are having a positive, neutral or a negative impact. It's about giving children a voice, because you know it's their education at the end of the day. And so, yeah, i think that's one of the key to improving well-being of children in school is to ask them about their experience of day-to-day life in school, like what's working well for you, what isn't, what could we do to improve things. And then, when you're measuring well-being, you get to see if the work you're doing is having the impact you want it to have And if not, you tweak, you change.

Dr Olivia KesselHost04:00

So yeah, i do think measuring well-being, asking children about their experience of school, is key aspects to that Because it's always going to be, as you say, a moving feast, because things in needs of children are going to change as well and environments are going to change. Like you know, have COVID, then you're out of COVID, so it's going to be a constantly changing landscape In terms of your journey with your school. What are some of the things that? first of all, how did you actually get that on the agenda that that was going to be important in your school? And then what have you done to implement things, to work towards that agenda and measure it?

Adrian BethuneGuest04:30

I would say like in terms of getting it on the agenda. So I've worked in three primary schools as a teacher and all three have valued children's well-being. And I know that's not always the case in as much as some schools really just focus and care about the academic side And they might take the approach and opinion that a children's well-being is not really, you know, the role of a school or role of a teacher. But the three schools I've worked in have all valued children's well-being. Why is that? Well, most people that work in schools are also parents. Like I don't know, i don't have the statistics, but most, you know a big majority of teachers also have their own kids.

05:05

And you know, when you become a parent, it becomes so visceral that you want your kids to be happy And not in this kind of fleeting momentary like, oh, they're smiling, they're happy. You know we want them to be satisfied with their lives, to be confident, to believe in themselves and to lead a life that ultimately they want to lead. And so, you know, when you work in a school with other parents, you see the kids that you're teaching as other people's kids and why wouldn't you want them to be happy and enjoying their school life and life outside as well. So first of all I'd say like maybe I've been lucky in working in those schools that really value children's happiness, because it's been a real passion of mine.

05:41

I've been, you know, in the schools I've worked in. I've really driven a lot of that work around creating a whole school approach to well-being. So a real holistic look at child's experience at school and making sure that we are controlling the things that we can control as a school. There's obviously so much of a child's life that's out of our control, but let's focus and control things that we control, such as you know are we measuring their well-being, such as what's on the curriculum? are children feeding into that? such as pupil voice, like, do children have a say in what they learn and how they learn?

Dr Olivia KesselHost06:09

And do they Such as?

Adrian BethuneGuest06:10

how much physical activity?

Dr Olivia KesselHost06:13

Pupil voice sorry is so important and I think it's sometimes missing. So how do you capture that? That's you know it is so important.

Adrian BethuneGuest06:19

Yeah. so again, in all the three schools I've worked in we've had a kind of school council or equivalent. So my current school has a pupil parliament where children can put themselves up for election. They make a pitch. We have like a pupil primary minister, we have a kind of finance minister. You know, we're trying to make it similar to the kind of political system we kind of work in, because you know why should all of our leaders just come from Eaton? Why can't they come?

Dr Olivia KesselHost06:45

from Broughton Junior School in Aylesbury. We definitely need people to come from different areas. I think it's a big need.

Adrian BethuneGuest06:54

And exactly. And so you know those school councils, those pupil parliaments, when they're done well and not just like a tick box, you know they are regularly meet, they come together, they should be feeding into you know what's working well. What are your friends and your kind of peers saying about what they'd like to see in the school? Again, the pupil wellbeing surveys we run. We then have kind of focus groups, typically with the pupil parliament, and so, just to give an example, one of the questions we ask is how happy are you with the school facilities? And it's quite a broad, general question. It gives some examples and it's the lowest score that we've recorded, as in out of all the other measures we kind of ask the children about. And so we met with pupil parliament and we were like look, what is it in terms of school facilities that children aren't happy with? Is it sports facilities, the fields, the equipment? Is it the toilets? Is it this, is it that? And it came back. You know that generally it's the toilets. So you know some of the taps aren't working properly. They smell a bit blah, blah, blah. So that has then fed into the work we do as a school. We spoke to our local council get funding to repair and replace some of the, you know, not so nice toilet blocks in our school And that work is then going to be happening this summer in the summer holidays when the kids go, and they can actually get in there and work on those toilet blocks. And so that is.

08:09

You know, children have told us they're not happy about something. We've listened to them and now we're acting upon what they've told us. And that is essentially what pupil voice should be. It's ask children about their experience of school. What's going well, celebrate that. What's not going so well? is there something we can do about it? if the answer is yes, then do something about it And then check in again. What do you think of the new toilet blocks? Are they what you expected, etc. And it's just a continual process And that's yeah. Why shouldn't children have a really large say in their experience of school? because they don't have a choice really about being there, you know. So you can't just force children to go to school and then just be like this is what the school is like, just deal with it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost08:47

Obviously, they can't control every aspect of school life, but you know they should definitely have a big say in that, build trust, because then they're empowered to have their voice heard and they can trust that you're going to listen to them and actually take action on it. Now, with classrooms today that are big and there's a wide variety of different kids in the classroom And you know this podcast we look at you know neurodiversity in the classroom and you know what's what's working for maybe the majority of children. the classroom might not be working for about 30% of the kids in the classroom. And how, how do you, how does the happiness kind of agenda work around kids that are maybe having more challenges within the classroom And how is their voice heard And how do they feel part of that student body?

Adrian BethuneGuest09:28

Yeah, it's a really good question And I guess part of answering it is acknowledging how, how difficult mainstream education is. And I say that like as a teacher working mainstream education, because you realise very quickly that you have like a huge diverse range of children. Even in a typical primary classroom of 30 children, you know a diverse range of needs, of fat grounds, of experiences, and it's very hard to cater for everyone. Like it just is, because there are certain restrictions, like timetable restrictions, you know legal restrictions, like we have to teach. If you're in a non Academy state school which I've only ever worked in local authority schools you've got to teach a national curriculum, you know, and so I think it's really important we acknowledge those restrictions and those difficulties.

10:12

However, schools do still have, and teachers do still have, i think, a fair amount of control and autonomy in terms of, like how that curriculum is delivered. You know the content for a certain extent is up for grabs. So, yeah, so you can, you can bring pupil autonomy into into the curriculum. So, for example, if you're teaching report writing, so like newspaper report writing, what happens in a lot of classrooms is you look at a model text and you say, right, we're going to do a newspaper report on, you know, the First World War, or you know you choose a topic And then what you typically get is like 30 variations on a theme.

10:47

Everyone's writing the same thing in a slightly different way, whereas actually you can bring in like, if the focus is report, newspaper report writing, then why can't children choose the topic they write about? you know, and you're bringing in autonomy. So if you're massively interested in space and the moon landings, then do a newspaper report on that. You can do your research, you can find the facts you know, you can interview, you know, make up interviews with astronauts etc. And if someone's massively interested in football or Great British Bake Off, whatever it, is that self directed kind of learning?

11:16

like exactly like ring, there is so much more scope to bring children's interest into their learning And then it becomes really relevant and interesting to them. Because just think, like I think we need to as teachers and educators, school leaders, more and more we need to put ourselves in children's shoes and just reflect, like, if this was me, like as an adult as well, if this was me and I was told I have to do this and I don't really have a choice, like and it's something I'm not genuinely interested in, is my motivation going to be high? No, like, as adults, we don't like to be told what to do and how to do it and we don't have much choice. So why?

11:49

are children like any different. Obviously, adults and children are different, but you know it's so true, though, adrian, you know. I have some intrinsic motivation.

Dr Olivia KesselHost11:56

I had to learn it as a doctor because I thought I'll tell my patient what to take. I'll tell them to, you know, take this pill, do this. They don't listen, they don't want to be told, they don't even remember what I tell them. You know, it's got to come from their intrinsic motivation to change their health behavior, to be activated as a patient. And it's so true. I think I see a lot of correlations between that and students. Like, if we can intrinsically motivate students like patients, that's when the magic happens, you know, because then they're excited about what they're learning and it's something that interests them. And then, you know, also being able to use different mediums within, like that newspaper article. You know, like some kids might write it, some kids, i don't know. If you do this, can they do it? Can they use different mediums to share that newspaper article?

Adrian BethuneGuest12:36

Yeah, exactly, and also. So, to go back to that intrinsic motivation point, there was famous research by these two psychologists called Desi and Ryan, potentially back in the 70s, 80s, the exact date I can't remember. But essentially what they, what they kind of discovered, was that there are three kind of key pillars for intrinsic motivation to be present. Number well, they're not in any particular order, but let's say number one is autonomy, so feeling like you have a sense of control over the things that you're doing. So that's massively important. Number two is competence, so feeling like you are good at something, or if you're learning something for the first time, that you're starting to make progress, like you're becoming more competent, because as you get better at something you know, you're more motivated to keep going and pushing yourself and learning more.

13:20

And the third pillar is relatedness, like feeling, a sense of connection, a sense of belonging. Yeah, so in the classroom those three pillars are so important. Like to children feel in control of important aspects of their work and learning. Are they getting better? They make in progress, just, hopefully, the whole point of education. And the third thing which I think is sometimes forgotten about, but I think it's probably the most important, is this relatedness, this feeling connected to others, feeling a sense of belonging, and so, in terms of, like children with special educational needs or, you know, neurodiverse children, that is so important, like, do I feel part of this class, part of this team, or do I feel kind of left behind or an outsider?

13:59

Which is why in my first book, well Being in the Primary Classroom, the first chapter is called Creating Tribal Classrooms, and it's all about fostering a sense of belonging. It's all about fostering the sense of team in the classroom, that we're all in this together, that our learning is not a competition, it's not about trying to be top of the class or that my learning is connected to your learning, like, if you're stuck, i can help you, if I'm stuck, you know you'll do the same for me. We all have different strengths, different skills, interests, abilities and actually as a team we are better for that diversity, because it means we can flourish in any given situation. If we're all this monoculture, monotype of student, then in a different situation, are we going to flourish? We're probably not, because we're not diverse enough.

14:39

We don't have that range of abilities to help us cope in a variety of situations.

Dr Olivia KesselHost14:43

And you know that's. You know it's beautiful to hear that because the way that I look at the education system now and when I've talked to other guests about it, you know they talk about you know well it's, a third is supposed to fail anyway. It's, you know it's. You know natural wastage I've heard, you know, and it's like how can a third of a population of children be natural wastage? And if we, you know, if we don't look at it more in the light and the way that you're looking at it, we're potentially disengaging future adults that could solve some of the world's biggest problems. You know what I mean, Because we need that as adults. We need that diversity and that adaptability and also that accepting of different, different strengths and weaknesses. You know it's not just a leaderboard of where you're at and what grade you got, and so that's really nice to hear that.

Adrian BethuneGuest15:28

Yeah yeah, well, i. one of the books I often refer teachers to is this one by Professor Alison Gopney The Gardener and the Carpenter. I know if you've come across that book I haven't.

Dr Olivia KesselHost15:36

I'm going to add it to my list.

Adrian BethuneGuest15:38

She's a child developmental. Yeah, she's a child developmental psychologist And in the book she talks about loads of stuff. But one of the things she says is that, you know, a parent has I've got two boys five and seven year old boys And she says you know, one of the reasons that your children grow up to be so different from one another is one because your parents style will be slightly different. You know, first first child you're absolutely shattered, you don't know what you're doing. You may call them a steak. Second child, you're a bit more relaxed, i believe. But the other reason is, like, biologically evolutionary, they are designed to be different And it's because, if you think back to 200,000 years or more hunter, gatherer, tribal based societies, the tribes that the groups that were more likely to survive and thrive were ones with diverse members.

16:22

So, just like I said in the typical classroom, huge diverse range of interest, ability, skills, aptitudes, temperaments, personalities and the reason that is fundamental to our survival as a species is, as we evolved as human beings, as we hunted and gathered, as we were nomadically moving around, if you had a diverse group of people working together as a team, you could flourish and survive in any given situation, because it's like, oh, actually, in this situation we need our risk takers to kind of step up and, and you know, get that honey that's on that end of that branch hanging over the cliff, and then in other situations actually need the more kind of mild mannered, reserved, cautious people to kind of actually be like well, actually, before we go in here, let's think about X, y and Z, and so basically everyone has a role to play, you know, and everyone's skills and temperaments can be tapped into for the good of the group. And that is what I try and kind of show other teachers that actually part of the problem of modern education is that this is really narrow fun and we're trying to shove kids through. And, like you said, a third design to fail GCSEs and A-levels, like that. You know that's baked into the system. One third of people that take those tests will fail. But actually, you know, everyone has a role to play in a successful, flourishing, cohesive society.

17:35

And that's what good education should be about, like, what are your strengths, what are your interests, what are your aptitudes? how can you tap into them? How can you so one individually? you feel good about your life because you're playing to your strengths. And secondly, how can that your strengths benefit others? you know That's a key part of happiness as well, isn't it? It's not just thinking about ourselves. It's like, how can I help my community or the people around me? And, yeah, that, ultimately, i think, is what good education should be about. Absolutely, it's helping children discover their skills, their interests, improve a range of things. But equally, yeah, just think about what is it that makes me feel glad about being alive, and how can I share and celebrate that with other people.

Dr Olivia KesselHost18:13

Yeah, and not having a third of you fail, because there is no failure if you're doing that. You know what I mean. I've always my mom always used to say to me Olivia, i don't care what you do in life, as long as you're passionate about it. If it's picking up rubbish from the side of the road and you're passionate about that, i will support you with that. You know, if it's being a doctor, that's great too, but it has to be something that you get a reward from, and for me, i love giving to people, and I think that's what you've alluded to as well is, if you give, you get so much back, and that's a wonderful thing, And you can do that in so many multitude of ways in the world, and there's so many different career opportunities that can allow you to do that which you don't even need a college degree to accomplish.

18:47

So preparing our children to have happy lives where they are doing something they're passionate about and giving back to their community is forgotten about a bit in education. And what really amazes me by what you say is that you, as a teacher, have that kind of autonomy to be able to do this, because oftentimes or teachers that I talk to in mainstream. They just seem a bit burdened by everything you know about from off-stead reporting onwards And they feel I can sense that they feel almost a bit trapped within the bureaucracy and the current. You know strive to meet these kind of targets and the pressure that's put on them that it's hard to then do everything that you've just been talking about. Well, what advice would you give to and I guess you do give advice to teachers with books that you've written as well, but how would you speak to a teacher that's feeling that way?

Adrian BethuneGuest19:31

Yeah, i mean, i guess the first thing to say is like I understand. I think part of the reason that I am able to have this kind of wider perspective is I teach part-time now and so I'm like big chunk of the week I'm not in school And that helped massively. I went part-time when my youngest was a year and a half and my wife returned to work part-time and we kind of both shared that kind of responsibility And that was actually having that time out of school two days a week. Back then That was when I wrote my first book and it was literally having the headspace. So even though I had a toddler at home, i still had more headspace outside of school to kind of think about the book and what chapters might be in it, and I used to write in this room. Actually when he was having a nach. It was only about 20, 40 minutes at a time.

20:12

But yeah, i would say what I try and say to teachers is like to remind yourself of why you got in the classroom in the first place. Like, why did you choose this profession above all others? And nine times out of 10, the answer is along the lines of like I want to make a positive difference in children's lives. So, whether that's sharing their love for a subject or wherever that's, you know, i want to help children from a disadvantage background. Generally speaking, most teachers get in to make positive difference to children's lives.

20:38

So, like, go back to what is your sense of purpose for being in the classroom? Because that helps you, i think. Start to see the wood from the trees, because then you start to see is what I'm doing day to day aligned with that sense of purpose? Secondly, i often frame it like this. I say to teachers look, if this was your last year in the classroom, what would you keep doing Because you know it's really important? What would you ditch because you know it doesn't make damn bit of difference? In fact it might be way making things worse And what would you have the courage to do differently?

21:06

And the reason I ask that question is because in my quite early on second or third year of teaching I had had enough. I thought, like you've just said, i felt really hamstrung, i felt restricted, i felt like I wasn't doing the things I got into teaching to do And I said to myself I'm probably gonna leave at the end of this year. And because I'd made that choice to leave teaching, i then thought sod it, i'm gonna stop doing X, y and Z because I think it's a waste of time. I'm gonna do more of this. We'd have more breaks for physical activity. I started to introduce like little morning meditation with my class. I just started to make choices and changes that I thought this is what I think is gonna help. The children sat in front of me.

21:43

And then by the end of that year, surprise, surprise, i was actually enjoying teaching more because you were free. You know I was spending time, yeah, and actually a lot, of, a lot of our not everything, but a lot of our shackles are mental ones, like we think like, oh, i can't do this and I can't do that. But you know, i think we forget. We are autonomous, professional adults Like. We have trained to be teachers, we've done a degree, done a post grad course, passed our induction, and now here we are, as an adult, teaching these young children and people. We just need to remember that, because I think another problem with education is we can become infantilised.

22:16

We work with children every day and sometimes the way some school leaders talk to teachers and professionals is to infantilise and talk to them as though they're a child, when actually I'm a 42 year old man, i am professional. I've been doing this job for 12, 13 years. I know what I'm doing and I know what makes a difference and I know what's a waste of time. So you don't need to give me that directive, i've got this. So I think that can help Remind yourself of your sense of purpose and if you're feeling really hamstrung and just think okay, if you leave teaching at the end of this year, what would you have the courage to do differently? Because that freed me, because I thought, well, look, if someone tells me I can't do this or they say I'm going to lose my job, i'm leaving anyway, so I've got nothing to lose. So I think that can help.

Dr Olivia KesselHost22:58

I bet they didn't want you to leave at the end of that year.

Adrian BethuneGuest23:01

No, this is the thing. That school that I was in, the head teacher, started to see the difference it was making my class with some of the children. And then she said to me would you like to host a staff training and just share some of the ideas with other teachers in the school? and it literally all started from that, Me thinking sod this, I didn't get into teaching to do this, I'm going to do things differently. And it led to me doing some staff training in that school. A couple of years later, other schools asked me to do some training and that led me to write my book, led me to kind of getting more involved in teacher training now. So, yeah, that's how it can start.

Dr Olivia KesselHost23:35

That's brilliant because you're empowering teachers to take back control and to realign with why they got into teaching. Because that's from the parents perspective and that's what I kind of like to end on today, because sometimes I think teachers get a bad rep with some parents because the parents are struggling so much too, and I think hearing your perspective today hopefully also opens up parents minds to how to be more, and I know they are understanding. But there can be friction because there's a lack of communication sometimes with parents and teachers. Is there any tips that you can give parents of how they can better support their teachers, especially if they're struggling a bit or their child is struggling? you know how to best how to work as a team.

Adrian BethuneGuest24:11

Yeah, I think that's the key is, like from a parent perspective and a teacher perspective. Like, generally speaking, most people want what's best for that child, Like each wants them to learn and to fit in and feel you know, no teacher I know would be okay with knowing a child in their class is not happy and the same with you know teachers and parents. Like we all want the same thing We want this child to learn, to feel like a sense of belonging and to be happy coming to school. So keep that, you know, at the heart of any conversation. Again, like empathy is massive and it goes both ways. If you've got a parent struggling, you know knowing how to help their child, then it really helps for the teacher to be compassionate and understanding of that situation. And equally, it goes the other way. Like parents need to be compassionate, understanding that teachers have this in a way impossible job to educate in teaps, 30 completely different kids all day, every day And with often very little funding and resources and often little training, particularly when it comes to kind of neurodiversity.

25:12

So yeah, I would say, just keep at the forefront. We all want essentially the same thing. Like we want a child to be happy and to learn. So keep that at the forefront, And then it's just about like not turning the other person into an enemy, because that's where in my experience in schools, that's where I see the kind of friction. It's like you turn that teacher or you turn that parent into an enemy and then it's like communication just starts to break down. So, yeah, it's a hard one, But I would just say like, yeah, we all, we all want same thing want a child to be happy and to be learning. So how can we work together to bring that about? And I think you know, just listening to how you've described your experience as a child.

Dr Olivia KesselHost25:47

I think you know just listening to how you've described your experience going through school and how you were so disengaged. I think that helps parents to hear that story, because once you understand how difficult it is and I think a lot of us parents got an idea of it during COVID I myself could never be a teacher I take my hat off to you guys And that was a small taster of a place I never want to go, so I really got an understanding of how hard it is, and that was with a pupil of one. I can't imagine if there was 30 children. I think that it's important to put yourself in other people's shoes, but sometimes we get so involved in our own challenges and issues and becoming a fighter or a warrior for our children that sometimes we think everyone's against us when actually they're not. And actually forming that collaboration and that team is the best thing that can be possible for your child And that's where you know magic can happen, where you can find solutions together.

Adrian BethuneGuest26:36

Yeah, and I'd also just say, like, celebrate the small wins. So often when teachers call home, it's you know, or so, and so did this in school today, or so, and so you know swore, or this or that, and it's often negative. But you know, teachers can and should pick up the phone or grab parent after school and just say, oh, by the way, this happened today and it was really good, it's really positive. And equally, parents can do the same, like I can't tell you how empowering it is when a teacher gets positive comment from a parent just to say, oh, by the way, jenny said that she absolutely loved your art lesson yesterday. It must be the smallest thing And like that, you know, just means the world to a teacher to know that children are engaged or that they've enjoyed something.

27:17

Or you know, i, i, in fact I got a message the other day by a teacher that I know, whose wife is an academic and her academic friend who was giving this lecture.

27:26

I taught her son over 10 years ago and her lecture was about neurodiversity in education and she basically kind of name-checked me as a teacher. That made a difference to her son, who was. He was new to our school. He joined my class year four and, yeah, the adjustments I was making made him feel welcome and he really enjoyed that year in school and, like that, just meant the world to me that that makes all of the hard work, the stress, everything worth it. And so, as parents, don't forget to let your children's teachers know when they're getting it right, because it honestly makes the world a difference. And then it also just empowers that teacher and encourages them to do more, because sometimes you think you're doing all of this stuff. Is it making a difference? because you don't know. But when you get that feedback it just makes you think, yes, this is worth it, and to keep going.

Dr Olivia KesselHost28:15

Puts the wind back in the sails again and gives you that Yeah exactly.

Adrian BethuneGuest28:20

And then you know when that positive feedback's going both ways, like you know teachers telling parents by the way, this happened, it was so good, etc. And vice versa. Then you know you are starting to work as a team or you're gonna. You're gonna communicate more effectively, you're going to it's going to be easier to have those more difficult conversations because it's being balanced out with the positive as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost28:38

Absolutely, and you know there's actually a medical reason. When you give someone a compliment, you release a hormone, and actually a hormone gets released in the other person too, which makes you feel happy, and it works both ways. So you're actually making yourself happier by being able to compliment people on things that they've done right. So it's a valuable lesson, for I mean, you benefit from it. The person who you're complimenting benefits from it, so from a medical well-being, it's a great thing to get in the practice of doing, not just in education but, you know, in your life.

29:03

Taking that time to say positive things to people is really powerful. I want to thank you, adrian, so much. Today. It's been really interesting to get the perspective of a teacher and also to see a teacher that does things outside of the box and has been successful at creating a different way of doing education. You give me hope for the education system and I'm happy to hear that you're training other teachers and that you've created this book, which I will have a link to on our website as well, because you know, end of year is coming up soon Christmas is around the corner. It's a great gift for your teacher. Maybe you know, um, who knows, do you think teachers would appreciate getting your book Adrian?

Adrian BethuneGuest29:41

yeah, i'd hope so too.

Dr Olivia KesselHost29:42

No, i think it's got some really practical and great things in it and um. I really appreciate the time you've taken today, so thank you no, thanks so much for for having me in.

Adrian BethuneGuest29:50

Yeah, love being on your podcast, thank you thank you, send parenting try.

Dr Olivia KesselHost29:57

If you're new to the podcast, please hit follow, as we have new episodes released every Tuesday. Also, follow us on instagram at send send parenting podcast. Wishing you and your family a happy week ahead you.

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Please excuse any error as this transcript has been auto-generated