Transcript - Episode four

Advocating for your child in the education system insights from Dr MacDonald

Please excuse any errors as this transcript has been automatically generated

Dr Olivia Kessel:

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast, focused on supporting and empowering parents and their Neurodiverse children. I'm your Neurodiverse host, Dr. Olivia Kessel. We'll be speaking weekly with experts in the Send World. No topic is too big or too small for us to discuss. We will include things like, how do you navigate education? How can you understand what your child's legal rights are to an education? Practical advice on neurodiversity, and most importantly, hearing the voices of other parents just like you. Looking forward to having you join US weekly as part of the Send Parenting Tribe.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

In this episode, we'll be speaking with Dr. Natalie Jane McDonald, gaining her perspective, knowledge, and expertise in education from being a chief executive of Acorn Care and Education for children who have special education needs to working in the NHS and to getting an MBE while raising three children. She's a remarkable woman and definitely worth a listen.

Welcome Dr. McDonald to the Send Parenting Podcast. It is a real honor to have you here today on our show. You have over 30 years of experience working in the Send World, both in education and also navigating the local authority and that experience knowledge is really invaluable. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey?

Dr. MacDonald:

Yes. my, whole career has been in health and care and education. So I started off I trained as a doctor and I worked in the nhs in Scotland, which you can probably hear from my accent for about eight to nine years. And then like many healthcare professionals, I took one step sideways out of clinical practice, but still doing things associated with healthcare. And I've been very fortunate because I've worked in all sorts of different ways with the public sector. I've commissioned services. I've worked with commissioners both in healthcare, in the NHS and in local authorities. I've worked in the private sector, as well, within independent organizations, whether that's in healthcare or in education or indeed in care. I've worked with all sorts of, different people across these, different sectors.

Dr. MacDonald:

So, there's an advantage to being older and having a number of years’ experience, which is that it gives you perspectives and obviously learning about how to think about the reason why we're speaking today, which is, as a parent of a child who has challenges that maybe some other children don't have and how you face into them and do the very best that you can for your child. I'm really aware how complicated the whole system is to navigate. And it's one of these things too where you most families will only ever encounter this once or, or maybe twice, you know, if you've got more than one child who, who you need to, who you need to help. So it's not something where we can draw on experience. You're kind of learning as you go, and often people will look back and think, Ooh, I, I wish I'd known what I know now when I was, when I was starting out. So for that reason, I think this podcast that you've set up is a really fantastic idea and hopefully will help parents, benefit from some of the learning that I guess you, yourself will have done over recent years.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

That's, absolutely true. And that really is the ethos of the podcast because it was such a struggle for myself, you know, not being from this country, first of all, and, and you know, not having had a child before and, you know, talking to other parents now, having that knowledge would've been so helpful. Now I have it and you know, speaking to people like you who have more knowledge than I do is going to help me as well as other people listening to this podcast. I guess you know, if you could give advice to parents really who are struggling and myself included within the education system with their children, whether or not they have a diagnosis of neurodiversity or not, what kind of advice would, would you give them?

Dr. MacDonald:

Well, I think that the feeling that it's a bit of a, it's a series of battles and that you've got to summon huge reserves of energy and persistence and at times, probably, um, maybe act in ways that you wish you didn't have to in order to serve the best interest of your child is I think, what everybody experiences. So, I think I would, what I would say is that across the different stakeholders and people who are involved in helping to ensure that any child who has whatever form of neuro adversity is able to flourish in education and in their growing up and achieve their potential. There are an awful lot of stakeholders and to a man or a woman in those stakeholders, I think everybody individually, um, is driven by a sense of, um, worth and purpose about trying to do the right thing for individual children and children collectively.

Dr. MacDonald:

But unfortunately, the system when it comes together doesn't really deliver against that. And so I think that not only do parents feel as if they're, as I say, battling to try and get through and understand what's going on, what options are, how to meet the best choices and so on. I think that also those who work within the system are often quite constrained in terms of their own professional position. And if they could wave a magic wand, what they might think wish to happen for individual children isn't always easy to, easy to realize. And I guess my single thought is that, you know if there's any certainty in this, it's that children grow up, they go through, they go through, you know, from early primary school through to secondary school, through to further education of whatever sort of further learning, and then they become adults.

Dr. MacDonald:

But I don't really think that currently the system and all the constituents within it are really orientated and organized around that, you know, single centrality of the, of the journey a child goes through, as they go and mature and obviously want to optimize the learning during that time so they can have a flourishing life as an adult. So I think that's my, my single biggest message to parents that don't be, don't be set back by some of the challenges you experience, but don't be surprised about either because with the best will in the world, although the individual professionals will be doing their best as a system, I think it's complicated and quite difficult and doesn't necessarily seem to easily serve the best interests of the children who are and should be at the center of

Dr Olivia Kessel:

It's interesting that, isn't it, because you know, I'm from Oxfordshire County and I know each county's differ, but our minister of education is really gung ho on everyone being in mainstream, and her kind of ethos is that she doesn't want to segregate children. I would be very curious to hear what your view is in terms of having all children other than very, like severely complex individuals being educated in a mainstream setting.

Dr. MacDonald:

And undoubtedly, I mean, even nowadays, it can be hard to be different, for anybody, whether they're a child or an adult. And then in an ideal world, having education organized in a way that would allow people whose children have neurodiverse needs of different sorts to participate fully in in <inaudible> education for their, their particular needs to be met that way, might be ideal, but it's not necessarily a real relatable ideal when we look at all the constraints within the systems that mitigate against that. And what I mean is that in class sizes where you've got 30 children and maybe one teacher and a teaching assistant to meet the needs of a wide range of children, it's really hard to achieve. And it's almost easier for children who have more profound need to recognize that they will benefit from something special that's more attuned to their needs.

Dr. MacDonald:

But for the children who maybe not got quite at those levels of need may nevertheless may really not flourish in a mainstream classroom. And so the sort of ideology around inclusion and mainstream gives weight to the pragmatic reality of what is possible to achieve within a particular school and a particular community with the resources it has, whether those are physical resources such as classrooms, whether it's the number of teachers and teaching systems and therefore class sizes and so on. And often that ideal gives away to something that is much less appropriate for children who have some form of neurodiversity. And, and so you can't be a slave to your system. You know, you've got to be able to know, the purpose of education is to enable children individually, collectively, to learn to flourish and to become productive adults and to achieve their potential.

Dr. MacDonald:

And our ambition must be to achieve that in the right way for all children who are in the classroom. So I suppose I would say, well, that's fine. If, if that's the, if that's the ethos that you want to embrace around inclusion, except for children who have the most significant needs, that's fine, but show me it in action every day in, in, in every classroom. And if it can't be shown, then it's not supporting children who have those needs in the here and now. So I guess my perspective would be early detection, spotting early,, in a child education, whether there's something that isn't right and then trying to investigate, just what that is, what's at the root of that.

Dr. MacDonald:

And then knowing that through good professional assessments in a rounded way and in a way that involves professionals and parents to then to be able to have good conversations about how those those needs can best be met. Because I know, and I think when we've been chatting previously, one of the things that you yourself found was that you find that there's things that you wish you'd known almost inadvertently, because it's such a sort of complex world to be able to navigate. So I think transparency, communication, openness and engagement are really important.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

It's getting that information as a parent, which is, you know, really challenging because sometimes you hit barriers with the school not wanting to actually be as transparent as you might like them to be.

Dr. MacDonald:

Yeah. And I think that’s not because the teachers or the leaders in the school want to be difficult or don't want to be transparent, you know, I mean, never more than now are we aware of just how challenging it is, you know, coming out of Covid, there's not enough money, there's not enough people, you know, people are leaving the professions in education and in, in healthcare. It's all really hard. And therefore that can lead people get a bit battered by all. And it can be hard to constantly engage, especially when you feel that you're, that you're limited in what you can offer. So I've got a huge amount of empathy and sympathy with teachers and head teachers, you know, and those who work in mainstream schools in terms of them being able to deliver for each and every child.

Dr. MacDonald:

But I think that good quality conversations and an understanding and advice on how to navigate the system is really important for parents. And that needs to be set alongside the absolute huge anxiety that parents will have when they're so worried that there's something not quite right about their, their child who might really not be flourishing and might be really suffering at school, but they don't yet know what it is. And of course, that that anxiety you know, leads to, to stress and pressure and, and so on. So the pace at which getting to the bottom of what's driving things, I think is, is really important because then there's a common understanding to work from between parents and teachers and other professionals

Dr Olivia Kessel:

And that's really challenging in and of itself because, you know, for, I think for an assessment now, the, the waiting list is three, three and a half years, and I've known parents who've been on it for three and a half years and eventually had to go privately, which isn't an option for everybody. So, um, even getting to that point where you get the diagnosis where you can work on the same page is challenging.

Dr. MacDonald:

It is. And for someparents, this is just beyond their means to, for example, think of accelerating things through, through, paying for a good assessment privately, I suppose. But I suppose that is probably the most valuable thing that one can do in the whole process, because if you don't really know what the situation is, what are the factors that are influencing your child not making the progress that he or she should at school or not flourishing or losing confidence and so on, it's really difficult to know what to do. So that would be the one area where I, where I think if, if I was having to, to dig deep and you know, make savings in other areas, I think that's probably the most important thing. It all starts with a really rigorous assessment by a good competent specialist, whether that's, a clinical psychology, educational psychologists or specialists in, you know, the speech and management disorders or, or autism or whatever it might be. Because that really is the basis from which everything else hinges on.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

I've thought this over. And because there's such, there's first of all, a delay as a parent because you don't want, at first for your child to be labeled. You don't want, you have thoughts in your head about, what are their outcomes going to be like if this is what I suspect is true? So there's a, a delay there on the parent side of not, you know, not really wanting to face it. And then there's the delay of actually getting the assessment once you are prepared to do that. So a parent almost has to think, you know, ahead of the game, but it's, you know, better to get yourself on a waiting list. And I thought to myself, it would be great if they had, and they might have out there some way to automatically, use a computer program to kind of test so that you could do something. It could empower the parents to get a sense of where their child is at. But I'm not sure if that exists or doesn't exist in the world today.

Dr. MacDonald:

I'm not sure that it does exist. I mean, I think there's a lot of tools, and, you know, many of them now are quite sophisticated in terms of how they're deployed, but sometimes, we're told anyway, it's an interplay of different factors that can be causing the issues with education. And, there, you know, it does take some time often for that to, to crystallize because, you know, all sorts of children have all sorts of issues, and challenges when they go into education and coming out of Covid. There's more difficulties that everybody experienced because of the impact of wearing face masks and its impact on communication as well as things like social isolation for children and young children during that period. So I think everybody you know, everybody can forgive themselves for the fact that it can take a bit of time before you start to think well actually there is something more going on here.

Dr. MacDonald:

I think it's trying to get the school engaged, around the child and then talk through what the different options are. Because I think sometimes parents don't even know that they have options and that they wait a long time, not, for example, even if they could pay foran assessment privately that they're not even aware that they can do that in the same way as when they're further down the line, you know, they don't realize what their options are on accessing non-mainstream education of a more specialist nature that might be ideal for their child's particular needs. So it all comes down to you have to, you have to ask lots of questions. And that's why I say it can be difficult if you're a shy person and you don't feel that you're very pushy. You know have to, you have to sort of make yourself be persistent and, and ask the follow up questions and not just accept the, well, that's all we can do.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

I would consider myself a very pushy person and I didn't know what to do. And almost, you know, that you use with doctor mentality, with me, with education, I figured that they knew all the answers, and that even though, my daughter was struggling, they weren't telling me anything. And then, as I fought the system more and more stuff came out and then, oh, well maybe this is the right solution. Then we started to have some really beneficial discussions about my daughter. But when I was just taking it as status quo and that they would come to me, I was missing out, so I totally agree with you that it, you need to, push and, and go out of your comfort zone and also not just accept what's going on in the school, you know?

Dr. MacDonald:

The individual people in the sort of management roles at the school are usually, you know very professional, doing the best that they can, but they're part of a system that isn't, isn't working well enough, for a child who's six or seven, three and a half years to wait for an assessment is an interminable period of time. Think of how much of a child's education has been negatively affected during that period. You know, when you're nine years old, the summer holidays seem like they last forever. So I've got, I suppose a huge level of, impatience and dissatisfaction with the fact that the system lets people down in that way.

Dr. MacDonald:

And at the moment, the only way through it really, if you are a parent, is to just keep on asking these questions and not assume that the answer you have been given is the only one or the right answer. Of course there's, broader work going on behind the scenes about, improving that system and making sure that inclusive education reflect the diversity of needs within a classroom. But you know, that will take and in the meantime, parents have to do the best for their, for their for their children.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

And then, you know, when you then start to engage in things like maybe your child needs an educational healthcare plan, then you have to deal with a local authority, and then the local a authorities lack of funding. And that's another system, that gap in time of children can get even further and further and further..... I know they have guidelines on how long it should take, but it's, you know, tribunal dates are being booked up to year in advance. It, it can take a really long time. I think it's difficult, like you have said, you know, the local authority, their hearts are probably in the right place, but they're also faced with the constraints of too many, too many people trying to access the system and not enough money. What would your,

Dr. MacDonald:

Yes. Um, and I think that if your child has more severe needs, then actually it's easier because it's less, it's less sort of a nuance. But if that's not the case, then you know, it's why the assessment that I've spoken around is so important, because that then forms the basis of where do we take this? And are my requirements likely to be met in the mainstream school that they are in just now? Or do we need to look at higher levels of additional support, or do we need to look at actually a different school setting? Um, might be, that's more specialist, uh, might be, uh, appropriate. And because of the interplay between the educational, requirements and particularly healthcare and where, you know, where therapy and medication can be, helpful, then obviously any EHCP plan can be vital to make sure that everything comes together in a rounded way around the child.

Dr. MacDonald:

But, you know, tribunals, I think used to be used infrequently and are now, are now common. I mean, the number of children with EHC plans, compared to the old statementing, you know, the numbers are, are hugely increased. Some of that is a good thing because I think statementing had such a stigma associated with it. It sometimes prevented people even thinking that that might be something that would've have a positive outcome. Whereas I think E H C plans actually there is recognition that these are good positive things and that the intent behind them to take a much more holistic view of an individual child who are growing up. Education, health, and care is, is the right thing, but there just aren't the resources to be able to do the quality and timeliness of assessments and then the evaluation of those in a meaningful way, which is why then parents, either directly themselves find, legal advisors that they can work with in terms of how they can, go to a tribunal or sometimes the school will be helpful too in giving them advice about how they, how they can go about that.

Dr. MacDonald:

And then of course, often what happens is that it's a bit like both of the plans, but also then in terms of getting specific school placements, often things settled just before the tribunal happens, which is, you know, once all the effort and energy's been expended and the cost which is very galling, but that's, that's sort of customer practice nowadays. Yeah.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

It's a bit of a broken system, you know kind of a, a pushing the ball down down the road a bit, in my opinion.

Dr. MacDonald:

Yeah, so there's people that want to do the right thing, but they don't necessarily have the resources at hand to enable them to do that. So people sort of move things on a bit. Trying to just inch it forward, but obviously then time elapses and there is no more fundamental solution from an education, or indeed healthcare perspective.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

And when you're looking at kids time is, it's really of the essence, you know what I mean?

Dr. MacDonald:

It is of the earth and it is, it

Dr Olivia Kessel:

Is. Yeah. They changed so quickly.

Dr. MacDonald:

Yeah, much more so than with adults. Yeah that's right. But I guess it's a thing about how you, but you've also got to not panic, you know, there's no, um, what you don't, what you don't want is that the needs of the, of your child then becomes something that dominates your family and it starts to affect how everybody lives and works every day. And that persistence meets panic and anxiety, and then there's a lot of fallout from that. So it's, it's, it's really hard to achieve, but as a parent, you've got to be persistent, but you've also, you've also got to stay calm. And otherwise it can make the situation even even harder. And of course, children are acutely sensitive to how their parents are feeling and so on, and it can have, you know, knock on effects. Just simply the frustration of trying to get through the system, and get the right answers,

Dr Olivia Kessel:

It's a long battle, and

Dr. MacDonald:

It is, but that's why, that's why podcasts like this, groups where you can talk to other parents, more informal groups where you can speak with professionals and so on are, are obviously vital, keep vital to keep you sane, vital to keep you on track, uh, vital to compare notes, um, on experiences and gain and gain support, uh, from that to, to help your, uh, your residents. I mean, it would be much better it was easier, but it's, but it's just not,

Dr Olivia Kessel:

You know, if earlier on, you mentioned having a magic wand, and if you had a magic wand, what, what education system would you create that would be able to, you know, bring out the best potential in both neurotypical and Neurodiverse kids?

Dr. MacDonald:

Well, I, I think that one of the things that we're aware of now, you know, and it's an advantage through, the advantage that we have in understanding the brain, understanding how we learn and so on, is that we've got a much more sophisticated ability now to be able to understand why it is that children learn at different rates, why children may have obstacles or issues. And also you know, one of the very healthy things I think coming out of, things like the Pandemic was much more comfort about talking about, you know, psychological problems, mental health problems, other sorts of learning difficulties and so on without so much of the stigma. So we've kind of opened up, we've opened the box almost to say actually, well, people have all sorts of, of different needs and challenges. Neurodiversity is really common.

Dr. MacDonald:

It may not be, and there's a spectrum of that and people have all sorts of different things. But, at the same time, we are in an education system where the amount of education that teachers themselves get around, special educational needs is very little. It's, you know, it's crammed in as a small part of everything else that they do, and therefore they have very little, and can have very little expertise in this. But I suppose the key thing that we're looking for is, is that there are ways in which children who have more than the usual challenges when, when they're, at school, that that can be detected early. And then I think there needs to be via schools a much more rounded and robust and quick way of assessing children's needs as early as possible.

Dr. MacDonald:

I do agree, you know, that inclusive education is a good thing where that is appropriate, but then that inclusive education needs to be able to be delivered to those who've got higher needs than the others in the classroom. Um, so SEN departments in schools, a number of specialists, the ability for children to have dedicated time for their needs to be able to be enabled within, within mainstream schools, which requires a lot more funding and more consideration, I guess, than it's currently getting. And obviously more teachers,

Dr Olivia Kessel:

Maybe smaller classrooms

Dr. MacDonald:

And smaller classrooms. Well, I mean, not to say that children can't be in, in larger classes, but they may need specific time dedicated to things that are important for them to be able to grasp concepts or to learn in ways that are additional to what they might have in the classroom so that they don't fall behind.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

Yeah. it's not an easy problem to solve, <laugh>. And it'll be interesting to see how things, keep moving forward. but I think everything that you've said today, it really resonates with me in terms of being an advocate and empowering yourself as a parent to make sure you fight for your child while also making sure you don't let it control your life and that you take a breath and enjoy your child and enjoy your family alongside being a warrior for your child in the education system.

Dr. MacDonald:

Yes, absolutely I agree with that. I agree with that completely, and I think the important thing, to hold onto if you are feeling very anxious and you're worried and people feel guilty about, this sort of thing as well, is that if you keep going, and once your child does, get the right diagnosis that is accurate, and from that, their requirements in terms of what happens in the classroom or what happens in addition to that outside the classroom are understood. Then the other thing about children is that the change in their levels of achievement and their happiness and their confidence and their engagement in learning can equally be huge. It can be very rapid. So the progress a child can make can be, you know, really, really significant. So it's worth hanging in there because once you, once you get those things, you know, the diagnosis from that, the assessment, and then the right, education in place, then children, you know, as they do when they're ill, you know, they can rebound in ways that are much faster than we with see with adults.

Dr Olivia Kessel:

So true. They're very resilient. Thank you very much, Dr. MacDonald. That has been a really insightful and great discussion, and I think you will inspire parents. You've inspired me. So thank you very much for joining us today.

Dr. MacDonald:

It's my pleasure. Thank you for having

Dr Olivia Kessel:

Thank you for listening and being part of the Send Parenting Tribe. If this is your first time joining us, remember to follow us so you can join us weekly for more insightful interviews to support you and your children on their educational journey to reach their potential. Please also visit send parenting.com where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, comment on the show, and also let us know what topics you would like to discuss. Wishing you and your family a good week ahead, and looking forward to you joining us next week.