Episode 39: Neurodiversity in Sport with Ex- Olympian Caragh McMurtry

Please excuse any error as this transcript has been auto-generated

Dr Olivia KesselHost00:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode we will be joined by Carol McMurtry, an ex-Olympian rower with a diagnosis of autism. She will take us through her journey to diagnosis and the challenges she has faced as an elite neurodiverse athlete.

01:02

She has channeled all of her life experiences and challenges to form neurodiverse sport, which is really focused on advocating for neurodivergent athletes. She uses it as a platform for support, education and advocacy. A truly amazing young woman with some really practical advice on how to support your neurodiverse athlete. So welcome, Kara, to the Send Parenting podcast. It is really fantastic to have you on the show today, not only to explore how neurodiverse athletes can be better supported to achieve their sporting goals, but also how they can be supported more to reach to have better mental wellbeing and health. You know it's such an interesting topic and I'm really super excited to hear your viewpoint, and I wanted to start by kicking off and asking to share with us a little bit about your journey with your neurodiversity and your sportsmanship and how that then led you to creating neurodiverse sport.

Caragh McMurtryGuest02:01

Yes, so thank you very much for asking me to be on the podcast, and I guess we're considering neurodiversity and sport as an important connection. So yeah, I am a former Olympic rower. I was on the Great Britain rowing team for 10 years but I had a really difficult time. I was always quite an active child. I was pretty successful at rowing from the start, even though I started to do like a charity outreach program. I was very like, I pursued it very independently. But I think I genuinely think my kind of autistic traits made me good from quite early on and I ended up sort of going to the Junior World Championships and meddling and the under-23s and meddling and got invited onto the senior squad, which is where I spent 10 years rowing and training and competing and racing for Great Britain. But, like I said, that's where it got really difficult.

03:18

I think before that I could just be myself and I had these quirks, but I had a lot of control over the way that I did things and the way that I approached things. And in retrospect I also asked some of my old coaches what did you think of me? And they were like oh, you were really argumentative and you were really difficult, you were a perfectionist, but they didn't say anything, they didn't make me feel like an alien. It was only when I got onto the sort of national team that everything about me was kind of like under the microscope, and I guess, because I was that little bit further from the mould that they wanted, which is very narrow, I had to stretch constantly. You know quite far and you're already trying to get 100% out of your performance. So then that extra stretching to sort of set rules to yourself so that you don't speak too bluntly or you must say this in this situation, you mustn't say that and you must come across like this and you must smile. At this time it was exhausting and I actually ended up having quite a few sort of mini burnouts and one really big one.

04:35

And in my second year on the team I think my second or third year I was misdiagnosed as having bipolar disorder. And I say misdiagnosed because I probably was presenting as that but it wasn't the cause. I think that's a big issue with autism at the moment is there's a lot of misdiagnosis and it's because people aren't scratching below the surface, Like what is the cause, Like what is really causing these mood issues, these so called personality issues. Is it the lens with which they're being viewed? Is it the expectations on people that they cannot fulfill? So yeah, I spent five years on. I spent five years on mood stabilizers and antipsychotics whilst training and competing for the team. So I was on like 1400 milligrams of lithium, I was on 150 milligrams of limotrigine and I was on 25 milligrams of quetiapin, and together that is a very strong concoction.

Dr Olivia KesselHost05:42

Yeah, that is a very, and the amount of you know the exercise you were doing. You know, in conjunction with that, most people couldn't lift their heads up.

Caragh McMurtryGuest05:52

Yeah, I could I well. Sometimes I like, on the way to training, I, my eyes would sort of like start dropping and I would literally feel like I think I might drive into this bush accidentally, like. But then I was still made to feel like I was a big problem, it was totally my problem, like I couldn't talk about it, like nobody picked up on it or they at least just turned a blind eye. You know I'd get comments like, oh, she's on a mad one again. And you know, just just told that everything about me was wrong.

06:23

I was too blunt, I was too honest, I was too this, I was too that you need to sugarcoat things more, rather than being like, oh, this doesn't seem right. Like you were a really good athlete when you came onto this team. Like you seem to have really like shriveled up in your personality Like what's what's happening? Why? Why is your performance dropped? Like, why do you seem so unhappy? Why, you know, my, my hair would fall out in clumps and my nails were flaking and I put on weight and my skin was really bad, but still nobody was like, how do, how, can we help you?

06:59

It was like, you know, you either make it work or you leave, and I was still just about good enough, like I think they were begrudged it quite a lot. I was still just about good enough that, even on all that medication, I was still like beating enough people to stay in the squad and I think I would have made their job a lot easier if I had just been that little bit worse, but I wasn't so. I was just like just about staying in, which I'm sure they found annoying. But in 2019, there was a like a new performance director came in and he was way more person centred, didn't last long, because they never do the good eggs never last long in sport and yeah, he was the first person to sort of like look at me as a human being and I actually think it's because he I don't want to say too much, but I think he had people that were close to him who it made. It made him empathize with me a bit more.

08:01

He understood you understood and he got me help. He and he referred me to the UK Sport Mental Health Panel, which has since been disbanded and and kind of like subsumed and they've turned it into something else. Basically because they got inundated when athletes, when teams and athletes, started realizing that there was like a panel that were actually going to recognize these issues and support them, everyone was like please help me. But I was actually their first client and they were the ones that kind of, like you know, trolled through my medical history, which was absolutely huge.

08:39

When I got it from the doctors it was like a massive, like giant, like set, like a whole. It looked like 10 dissertations in one with all the medications and the appointments and things. And and they, you know they spoke to me, they spoke to friends and family and you know they just they were the ones that were like we really don't think that you have bipolar disorder, we think that you have what they called it high functioning autism, but obviously I don't think people really like using the functioning labels anymore. And they that's when I was titrated off all the medication over like eight to 10 months and I got some therapy because I'd been through a lot and that's some support finally some support and some advocacy and a.

09:35

I call it a communication plan, but I looked back at it and it was actually labelled as a management plan. I'm kind of late in the register. That was a little bit offensive, but fine, it kind of worked at the time. So I had a management plan that I shared with people and it completely revolutionised my life and it's why I set up neurodiverse sport, because I was like I am definitely not the only one, I'm certainly not the only athlete. I'm sure I'm not the only neurodivergent athlete, but I saw it happening, this kind of treatment happening all the time.

10:14

Everyone's on a sliding scale of differing neurology. Everybody's different, everybody has different needs and I saw it so much in sport that people were just being disregarded and steamrolled and just tossed to the side and not giving that person-centered support. It might take a bit more effort at the start, but you'll get it back. It's not just being nice to people and it's not just giving them more than they deserve. I see it as enabling them to help themselves. That's what you're doing. You're not just constantly helping them. You're not going to stand there for them to lean on you the whole time. You're just giving them the opportunity. You're lifting them up and then they can go and walk and they can run on their own.

Dr Olivia KesselHost11:04

And also there's a degree of accepting or understanding, like you said, about that one individual having that empathy, not expecting everyone to be this cookie cutter Ottoman, that it's okay to be you. You don't have to change yourself.

Caragh McMurtryGuest11:20

Yeah, and you're never going to actually truly achieve diversity in anywhere, especially in sport, if you don't start accepting everyone's differing needs. Like if you only cater for one type of person, you will only get one type of person, and I think that's what people don't quite understand. Is that the way I see it is? If the world was set up for autistic people set up, say, for me, because not all autistic people are the same if the world was set up for people like me, we would all really thrive and other people would find it really really difficult and they'd be the ones being misdiagnosed of bipolar disorder, for instance.

12:06

None of the things that I struggled with were, I guess, permanent. They were kind of socially constructed and so everybody else has the power to kind of change it, and I don't think that you can only have one type of person thriving. I think that there is the possibility that multiple types of people could thrive at the same time. It doesn't have to be that you only cater for one person. It's just about flexibility and trust and people being educated and aware.

Dr Olivia KesselHost12:47

You need different people to create different solutions and people. If you're all homogenous, it's actually going to be the end of a species if you're all the same.

12:56

When any crisis or anything different happens, which happens in sports just like it does in life you won't have the right skill sets. You need it in employment. You look at the world's problems that we have ahead of us. You need people that all think differently but work together collaboratively. And that's interesting, because in sports you think you have to work collaboratively. You have to kind of take your different strengths of people, but it sounds like they really force you into being like a cookie cutter ottoman to manage you. Maybe I do.

Caragh McMurtryGuest13:24

I think parley is management.

13:31

Part of it is fear, part of it is no offense to the men out there, but I know that if I was a man my autistic traits would have been more accepted and I know that it was the male coaches who really felt I undermined them and stepped on their toes, and one of them, who was trying to be nice by being honest to me, genuinely said if you were on the men's team, your passion would come across positively as determination, but you're on the women's team so unfortunately, you need to sugarcoat things a bit more. Like you're upsetting people, you're upsetting in brackets, the poor women who can't take your bluntness.

Dr Olivia KesselHost14:21

Wow, where do you go with that when someone says that to you?

Caragh McMurtryGuest14:24

Well, you make a load of rules so that you don't offend people and you smile and you put loads of energy into coming across nicely and it takes out of your performance.

Dr Olivia KesselHost14:39

Not a win-win situation. So you've now formed Nerdiverse Sport to help other athletes who are, and organizations and coaches and stuff like that, to be better supported on their journeys, because you weren't supported on your journey. Do you think that and you kind of mentioned this a bit in terms of, like people being neurodiverse that sport can also be a big help to them as well? I know that some of the parents that I've talked to through this podcast you know it's somewhere where they finally shine, because education can be really difficult and it can. So it's got its positives and its negatives like a hundred percent.

Caragh McMurtryGuest15:16

I'm. I feel a bit bad because I just you like, what's your story? And I've just told this really negative story about neurodiversity and sport. That is what I'm trying to change, because sport is absolutely incredible for neurodivergent people and you know, all the way up until I got to the elite level I was fortunately supported and I felt I felt really sport, I felt really accepted, sport was amazing for me and it was almost like I was in this kind of state of blissful ignorance and and I'm not saying that every grass roots Sports club is as inclusive as it needs to be and I do think there's a lot that needs to be done there and there's a lot that needs to be done even before that point. I think there are a lot of Autistic, neurodivergent kids who who don't even get to the point where they can step into the club because there's barriers before that and and there's lots of things, lots of ideas I've got about changing that, but yeah, it's.

16:14

I think I I have to exercise every day. If I don't exercise, my head gets jumbled, like my mood drops, like it. I get sort of itchy, spiky, like all these kind of words I like it just is essential for my self-management. So and I know I'm just I'm far from the only one and yeah, no, absolutely.

16:43

And I think, on top of that, I think that there's there's something to be said for sport and exercise and the way that neurodivergent people learn, like I think that there's stuff that could be learned by academics if they looked at sport and how sport was taught and how neurodivergent learners learn.

17:03

Well in sport, for instance, like I Might work better if I'm stood up, I might learn you know, my times table is better if I was doing something else at the time or if I was. If you made it just a bit more practical, a bit more piece more, a bit more like explicit, all these things that Sport allows you to do and and the way that it allows you to learn it. Just I think it speaks to neurodivergent brains more, and I don't think that it's that they're not capable of no, I've never everyone but I don't think is that Everyone is not capable of kind of academic pursuits or other pursuits. It just happens that sport is taught explicitly. You have one-on-one coaching. Sometimes you get to explore your own boundaries before you kind of like Fail, I guess, and it's in, it's more in.

Dr Olivia KesselHost18:04

To me it's more encouraging than the classroom and it's a way to integrate With your nervous system, to a degree my brother had ADHD and he how I got him to learn. The times tables is on our dining room table.

18:17

I'd have the answers on one side of the questions on the other, and then he'd run around and I'd made like out of a candle with aluminum foil, the microphone, and I was pretending to be a game show host. You know, and you know. And he learned his timetables that way. But if you tried to sit him in a chair, forget it, he's distracted like this.

Caragh McMurtryGuest18:32

Yeah, it's like, yeah, you just need sometimes people just need everybody's different. Everybody has different news. But say, for somebody who has ADHD, you might just need something to like To distract or quiet that part of your brain so that it's not taking over, it's like. It's like running in the background and then you can concentrate on what you want to concentrate on.

Dr Olivia KesselHost18:54

Which is the complete antithesis of what schools and education speak. You know exactly exactly.

Caragh McMurtryGuest18:59

It's like you must be in a quiet, and I had this with sport. Like they used to say. There was this whole phase of like Mindfulness and meditation and clearing your mind and thinking nothing, and I remember I would just it would make me feel like an alien and I'd almost zone out and feel really depressed about myself because my mind does not turn off. So Just to ask me to be mindful, like it needs to be a different kind of mindfulness. It needs to be like Switching tracks rather than switching off, and I feel like that's probably similar for kids with ADHD and and they're learning. It's like it's knowing like how to engage, that kind of keep that something rolling in the background, and that's what sort of being active does. It kind of calms that bit down and then they can open their mind to something else.

19:47

And and I'm just using that as an example but they're just like everybody's mind works differently. There's not one way that a brain should or does function. So to have one way of teaching kids it actually baffles me, but it's the same. It's the same in sport, like. I feel like sport could take some Some like learning examples from academics and academics could take some learning examples from sport. But, um, ultimately, like who doesn't benefit from moving and being active and doing and I Don't know, like just trying things, I think Trying in order to learn and not coming up against those, like I said, those barriers Immediately that you might come up against in in the classroom, like you know and also getting that confidence.

Dr Olivia KesselHost20:45

You know, if you are good at something particularly and school is a struggle you get self-worth and oftentimes self-worth is knocked out of you in school because of your challenges, because the education system isn't very Flexible. So sports can Can give that to children and you know. It's interesting because one of the questions I had is is you know, and I don't know if you have the answer to this either, but in neurodiversity is our team sports versus, like, solo sports? Is there a difference or are there more barriers for one versus the other, or is it just completely Equal?

Caragh McMurtryGuest21:21

I would imagine I don't have any proof of this and actually it's we're. I'm partnering with them, the Reading University Psychology Department, at the moment on a study into, basically, whether autistic elite athletes, whether they self-select certain sports and why, and hopefully, that will tell us yeah.

21:43

So hopefully that will tell us a bit about things like team versus individual, versus, I think like Kind of like, the partnerships as well. I think there's that middle one which is like just two people, that's. There's a lot of sports that like that's not quite team, not quite individual. Yeah, but I would imagine that it is easier for a neurodivergent child athlete to participate and enjoy individual sports, but I Don't think that it's because they're not capable of being a good team member. I think it's because other people are intolerant or unaware of their differences and they misinterpret them.

22:26

So, for example, not enough people know that everybody, everybody's brain works differently and Everybody's baseline behavior, traits and neurology are different. And so if you don't know that and you think everybody thinks like you and you think that for everybody, a blank face means you're unhappy, or For everybody, fidgeting means you're not listening, if that's what it means to you and you think everybody is the same, then when you see somebody else do that, you misread it and it might not be the case. And that's where, like if you think about it, in every interaction multiple things like that will happen and people think no, no, no, that person is not concentrating. No, that person's from no, da, da, da, da. And that's where you know neurodivergent people tend not to fit in because they don't fit that mold and then they're not accepted.

23:21

And I think if more people just realize that everybody's different and you need to take just a moment to gauge, like to almost calibrate, that person's norm, then from then on you will read their signs right and You'll understand their intentions better. The worst thing is being Misinterpreted, and having your good intentions Misinterpreted as bad, like that is just the most painful thing, and I think it's a lot of the reasons why autistic people and other neurodivergent people kind of like, end up withdrawing from social situations because they're just like Give it a go, they're misunderstood and then it's like what's the point?

Dr Olivia KesselHost24:03

like, or they try and fit, the mold which causes such internal stress.

Caragh McMurtryGuest24:07

Yeah, they end up burning out or melting down. It's exhausting.

Dr Olivia KesselHost24:10

It's interesting because my daughter goes to school of a lot of neurodiverse kids and they all have their different things and it's really it's it's lovely to see because they get educated and supported about what is autism, what is ADHD, and when you hear them communicate it's like, oh, you're not understanding what I'm that I'm upset right now, so let me explain oh yeah and it's just, it's so beautiful because they they find ways to communicate, understand and have empathy, and so it's sounding to me like Maybe neurodiverse people select solitary sports, but if they actually were supported more in team sports, they could be equally, as you know, um good team players enjoyable.

Caragh McMurtryGuest24:48

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, they could contribute just as much.

Dr Olivia KesselHost24:52

Yeah, it's a lack of understanding and a lack of knowledge. Yeah well, blinders on to a degree. The other thing, and I've talked to one mom who's got a, a child who's doing super well in sports, and you know she's Because they're doing so well, maybe with that hyper focus as well they keep wanting to put her into higher swimming lanes and you know more, you know she's swimming with like adults now and the mom is like worried. She's like you know, is it? You know she's going too fast. I don't want her to go so fast because you know, kind of like you said, it was okay until you got to certain levels and then kind of the bottom fell out.

Caragh McMurtryGuest25:28

Yeah, I mean, there's certainly something to be said for that, but then again, I mean, what would happen if you tried to hold her back?

Dr Olivia KesselHost25:36

Yeah, no, and that's the challenge I'd be like I'd be, like no, I'm doing it.

Caragh McMurtryGuest25:43

So I think, like I guess, that mom would just have to do whatever she can in the background to try and sort of prepare, prepare her child as best she can for what may come. Like you know, if it was me I mean, I know, I know children are children, they're not adults but I generally would I just explain things. So I would just be like you know, you're moving really, really fast and you might plateau at some point and that's okay.

26:11

Like you know you might plateau for a year or two and then you might. We might find ways for you to improve again, if that's what you wanted to do. But and you might keep improving. But just just letting you know that this progress is great and you know, just be honest.

Dr Olivia KesselHost26:28

Support the minute, and I guess that that kind of leads me to another question too For parents out there, because it's so important it sounds like to find the right coaches for your child, or the right environment, and it sounds like you've you've had both experiences in having a good environment and then going into a not good environment. What can parents in your, in your experience, um, think about in terms of selecting the right kind of coaches, and are there any qualifications for that?

Caragh McMurtryGuest26:55

So, yeah, I have. I have definitely um well early on I hit the jackpot with coaches. Later on I did not, but um early on I think, and I didn't appreciate it at the time, it was only in retrospect, I think. To be honest, I think that um, the coach that I had, was definitely dyslexic and so he was neurodivergent. He definitely got it and he said things how they were and I really appreciated that straight down the line, told me what's what put me in line, but was really honest and really gritty and yeah, I've really connected with him.

27:33

Um, and I think I think that probably beyond any quality like there's not really any qualifications that people can have yet although that is something that I am, I'm working on with neurodiverse sport is um kind of created and creating some kind of either some kind of badging system for clubs so that people know that people have been educated. Perhaps there's like one sort of like a safeguarding officer who knows about neurodiversity. Perhaps there's flexible environments, there's like you know that you know you could do things with the timetables and with lights and noise and things like that. Like I've got ideas about that for the future, but it doesn't quite exist yet on a national scale, um, but I think there's definitely things that parents can look out for, and I wouldn't say that. I absolutely wouldn't say you need to find a coach that has knowledge of neurodiversity, irrelevant. What you need to find is good people who are willing to learn and who care about people, and who who are just aware and open minded and don't think that they know everything.

28:42

Um, because, unfortunately, in sport it's a real trait, isn't it? But unfortunately, in sport, you, you, it does attract a lot of kind of people who have a point to prove, they want to prove their theory, they want to prove their approach like it reflects on them, um, and obviously that sometimes means that they can be closed minded to like outside ideas. So I actually think that that's worse at the sort of professional end, when, when, um, coaching becomes a job, I think, at the voluntary end, you tend to get I hate to sort of tire everyone's same brush, but you tend to get better people because they're giving their time, they're doing it for the passion they're doing it for the passion they really care.

29:24

So I think, just just finding coaches who, who are prepared to, to see your child as a human being and, you know, as somebody who can grow and and somebody that they can learn from, um, and just not just a problem or an effort and um, I would also say, don't be afraid to at this point, don't be afraid to kind of like move around and it's okay to try a different place If the environment isn't quite right, um, just like it's okay to try and work through problems. But I think you kind of you know when, you know when it's wrong and you know when it's right. Really deep down, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know when there's a place that could be inclusive or is inclusive or it's never going to happen unless you put in an ordinary amount of energy and time into it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost30:20

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's being cognizant of. I think of that as a parent too, with with your child and and I think neurodiverse parents are used to fighting for their children as well in in many different guys, um, um, in terms of like you know, what advice would you give to make it more, more supportive? Maybe, if you're looking at it from an autism perspective or an ADHD perspective, are there any like examples you can give of how sports could be more inclusive? Either you know, as a solo sports person or as a team person, that, um, people out there that are who are coaching their little league or or whatever, could listen to and say, oh, actually, I could do that.

Caragh McMurtryGuest30:58

Um, well, obviously, firstly, like challenge, challenging preconceptions and and challenging your assumptions on what you think a certain behavior means. Like, just kind of like, just ask. Like ask, don't just assume that it means that you know, running around means a child is bored, you know, running around when they're not supposed to be, or something like that, or cause they're quiet, that's a problem and you want to perk them up, but maybe that's just their baseline. So, like, don't assume. But then, in terms of like practicalities, like everybody is so different, but probably something that seems to help, either help everyone or even the, the fast learners, don't it's, it's not as much of a detriment to them as it is the opposite way round is is really breaking information down and you know, not instruction, stacking too much and giving people very specific jobs and and being explicit about it. Um, and explaining your answer. Um, because sometimes ambiguity is diff, difficult and sometimes, like you know, multiple instructions, it's difficult. And and I think where, perhaps where there's a bit of like stress or angst or what you would traditionally consider behavioral difficulties, I would question like, say you, you see a blow up, because inevitably this happens with neurodivergent children, like I know, I used to have tantrums all the time. Um, think about why that's happening, Cause that is always. There's always a reason. That's always a result of something, and it might not be. It might be the thing that just happened is the straw that broke the camel's back. But go back, go back, work back, work back, work back. What actually has caused it? Is it that they've been overwhelmed from a day at school and you know, sport is their release, or home is their release, and and they've just exploded? And is there anything that can be done about that? You know, as a, as a coach, you might talk to a parent and say this is what I saw, what has happened earlier in the day, um, or is it that the lights in the gym are blaring down and that's just not good for them? Or is the music too loud? Or, you know, has somebody like been too rough with them and that's. You know, they might not be able to communicate it very well, but just like picking up on these things and just having conversations about involving everyone, you know, being objective about it, but, yeah, just understanding that behavior is communication.

33:39

Um, and, and everyone has different reasons, like different triggers, I guess you might say Um, and then if, if you figure out what the trigger is, you you can do something about it. Um, like, it might be a case of something that I've advised a few people on that seems to help us talking through and I kind of mentioned this earlier but talking through scenarios like if this does happen, if this does happen, if this does happen, and it just gives people, or neurodivergent people, children, that little bit of time to prepare and it just can sometimes stop the lid from exploding, cause you know, if that thing does happen, that they didn't want to happen, but at least it's been discussed, they can kind of be like that moment of like okay, we did talk about this. Uh, what did we say we were going to do? Rather than it, it's half of the problem is being caught by surprise and being overwhelmed. Um, so, yeah, I hope those, those are useful.

Dr Olivia KesselHost34:45

No, they're absolutely useful. It's, it's, it's um, you know it's. It's so valuable with my own daughter as well. She's ADHD and and knowing that that behavior is is a form of communication. And then unpicking it, yeah, and it's usually something that happens at school or something else it wasn't, you know, putting on her shoes or brushing her teeth.

35:04

It was something else. So you know, going back and finding out what it is and then letting that come out and talking about it really helps. And I think what you really hit upon also is that personalization. So don't expect all your kids to behave on a team or in sports like you expect them to behave, but to open yourself up to understanding each as an individual. So I think those are really good, good things for all those people coaching those kids out there to take in, take on board and also, I think you know helping other kids to understand other kids. You know. So to explain, if you know Johnny needs to run around, that's part of his, his. You know, just like he has got you got brown hair, johnny needs to run around and so explaining. So other kids also can be more accepting and supportive, because they generally are. Once they understand something, they generally are Really supportive.

35:58

But it's not understanding and then not being able to ask the questions. Like my daughter had to wear a splint For her cerebral palsy and you know she couldn't she didn't have the verbal to kind of explain it to kids in her class and they would ask her questions. She would feel uncomfortable, cry. So I came in and I explained it and they were. I mean, they wanted to know what, you know? Could they be made in different colors, you know? Could they have one? They were. It wasn't anything negative, that's how she perceived it, but really it was curiosity and wanting to understand it. And once they did it, there is no more barrier there. There's no more. There was no bullying or anything like that. It was just curiosity gone a little bit wrong, yeah and it's like why not?

Caragh McMurtryGuest36:36

why not? I don't say indulge that curiosity, but like that is a point in which you can. You can make future adults who are understanding and accepting, so why not? I, yeah, I definitely I definitely see that when I, when I do anything with children, it's I would say I don't know why they are then, but they tend to be just so curious and they'll say anything.

Dr Olivia KesselHost37:04

And you know why not Be honest with them and just yeah, and and, and, and, then, and, then they're absolutely fine with it and as adults, we should take that on board as well, and I think sports is a great way for people to be able to do that. In terms of any advice you would give to parents who are, you know, have a nervous child who's extremely interested in a particular sports, how would you you know, I'm sure your parents like when they saw your clumps of hair falling out I guess you were older than how can parents, how do you feel that parents because we've talked a bit about how coaches can support, how the team can support, how can parents support their child, or how did you feel your support from your parents, or what advice could you give in retrospect?

Caragh McMurtryGuest37:53

I think I think that in being Probably in feeling quite like different and alienated a lot of the time and hopefully this does change as the years go by and it definitely has started change but I think that that means it leads a lot of neurodivergent people to be heavily reliant on Close friends and family networks. So just kind of like respecting that and just, I think, just being there and providing that source of support and A rational and balanced here I think probably the most difficult thing is is knowing and being able to balance that supporting and not Carrying your child and sport is a really great, I guess, tool for parents to kind of give that over to the child, because you can't go on to the pitch with the child and run with them and do it for them. So, like I think, for me I was a very independent kid and I think other parents might have actually coddled me a bit, and I did get asked once like if you had been diagnosed earlier, how would that change things? Would it been better? And I said no, like I think if I was diagnosed at 10. I think it would have been worse and I don't think I would have made it as far as I did in sport, because I think I would have been held back by my labels, by parents, friends, family, school, the club. Instead, I just forged a path and it was really hard at times and probably too hard, harder than it needed to be, but I'm really capable now and really strong and I'm always like I'm always pushing my boundaries and so so, yeah, I think I think I think, like, obviously, advocate for your child but also encourage them to do things themselves as much as they can do.

40:06

Like, I think, allow them to, allow them to make mistakes and support them to do that. Like, support them when they fall over but encourage them to get back up and do it themselves again and don't feel that you have to protect them because all the time, because sometimes that can actually do more damage and and it is hard, isn't it? Because I don't, I don't want to say, allow your kids to be put in danger, allow your kids to have a terrible time. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying, like, allow them to push their boundaries and Try and grow and strengthen themselves, like I, I know I feel at my best, like when I'm quite I've had that autonomy and like when I worked with my therapist.

40:52

I was literally like a shell of myself after being on that lithium for so long. And I remember her saying you know, carer, because I got, I got, I got good, but I had her as my crutch and she was like you know, carer, like there will be a time I knew she was preparing me. I was just like there will be a time when you know you actually don't need to see me and you might say to me, carer, and sorry, you might say to me and I would say a name, but I don't think that we need to see each other anymore. And you know, you're always free to call me up when you want, but you might want to break this relationship off because you're strong enough to stand on your own. And I remember her saying that and I knew she was preparing me.

Dr Olivia KesselHost41:37

I was like I'm not stupid, like I know you're trying to push me away going on here I was just like, no, like, no.

Caragh McMurtryGuest41:45

I cannot stand on my own two feet, I can't. So overwhelming, I can't, I like, I, just I can't, I can't, I can't. But it is exactly what I needed and like the worm was in my head and then, like, a few months later, I was like you know what, I actually don't think I need you anymore.

41:59

Obviously in a nicer way but but like I needed to hear that and it was like I was good but I wasn't, as I wasn't as like in control and Thriving in my life as I could be, because I was really reliant on someone else. And I think I think for neurodivergent people, you're more likely to be put in that situation because you're you're more challenged all the time from the people. Like society is as a whole and the way it's structured. So, yeah, just like I'd say that's my, that's my big bit of advice is like don't stop challenging them, don't stop supporting them in combination and don't stop believing that they can achieve everything that they want to achieve. Like that is one of my.

42:47

The saddest things that I see sometimes is when people are limited and it happens. It happens Inadvertently, by parents, but also by practitioners and teachers and coaches. You know, somebody gets a diagnosis at the age of three Of autism. It's like, yeah, well, little johnny's just probably never gonna be able to say you know, finish school he's probably never gonna amount to anything, probably won't be able to.

43:12

how do you know, like, how do you know that?

Dr Olivia KesselHost43:17

Someone who's a teacher, who alexandra knows, and you know that she said very similar conversation with a medical professional saying well, you're, you know your child is never going to, his autism is never going to. He's making six figures with formula one now okay, so there you go, you know and and that's you know, and that's.

43:36

It's sad because a lot of more kids are getting diagnosed and you don't want that to become the hidden endurance that doesn't that stops them from reaching their potential. Like my daughter, she has cerebral palsy, left hemiplegia. Okay, you might say she can't ride a bike. You know what? We figured out a way to do it. Right a bike now and we go biking for two and a half hours. You know I had to strap her foot to the other pedal. We had to get that muscle memory.

43:58

It wasn't easy, but we did it, you know and so, yeah, you don't want the labels and I think that's something also really important in sports is because you, you want to be able to make the adjustments for people, but you don't also want them. Then say, oh well, you couldn't be in the league sport because you have autism or you have this In fact. I mean, if supported in the right way, with the hyper focus and the, the speed with which you know ADHD years, that their minds are going three times faster than anyone, so those are all positive things. So when it becomes to a point where it's like, oh, that's a great, you know.

44:30

Oh, thank God, you're autistic that's exactly what we need on our team right now.

44:34

you know, that's where the world needs to shift to, in my opinion, and parents need to be at the forefront of that and you know kids are funny because, like my daughter will say, oh, I can't, you know, when she goes to dyslexia I can't undo the dishwasher. I'm like I have dyslexia and I managed to become a doctor so and I can do the dishwasher. So you really do have to make sure that you don't limit your child and Because the world does make you feel like you know, this is a bad thing and it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It might be more challenging, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Caragh McMurtryGuest45:05

No, I totally agree, as you've just illustrated, with your story and I love that you know. What you're saying about is finding a way, like just don't need to limit it. It might be, yeah, like you said, it might be hard but problem solved for it Like nothing. Don't let anybody tell you that something is not possible. It might be that you have to go around the houses to do it, but it is still possible and you have to judge whether it's worth doing. But like, yeah, sometimes I go on LinkedIn and, to be honest, I do have like big culls sometimes of people that I follow for this reason.

45:44

But I go on LinkedIn and I come off and I just feel terrible and I just feel like I just feel like, oh, so I almost feel like, oh, I shouldn't amount to anything, I can't do this and I can't do that. And I know it's because people sometimes, in order to get the support that you need, you have to almost shout about the things that you struggle with, and that's a really hard paradigm to kind of juggle, because at the same time, you kind of want to pay respect to that and you want to be supported, but supported to find solutions so that you can actually progress and achieve and do things and it's really hard to juggle those two things. So I understand why people always kind of campaigning for like, appreciate my disability, appreciate the things that I struggle with, but I really I feel like it should always be balanced out with you, should responsibly balance it out with but if you do this, this and this, you can achieve, because otherwise you're just making people feel terrible and you're just adding to this stigma.

Dr Olivia KesselHost46:56

Yeah, I completely agree, and when I talk to my daughter about it, you look at people that you think, oh, they've got it all. They have it all. They can do everything. So there are things there that you don't see. There are issues with, maybe, the parents, there's problems sleeping. Nobody goes through life without anything.

47:16

Whether you're neurodiverse or not neurodiverse, there's going to be challenges and those are the that's when it's how you get through those. So being forced to live in a neuro-typical world is already making you stronger, more resilient, more able. So I completely agree with you and I think it's those are great words to end by that none of us should limit ourselves, neurodiverse or otherwise, and to always keep challenging ourselves as parents, as coaches, as people in sports. Because, yeah, as your story illustrates, it's where the magic happens and I think what you're doing is fantastic with neurodiverse sport. Please keep us updated when the Reading Studies come out and hopefully, I'm looking forward to a day where it doesn't matter, where we all appreciate our differences and we realize that that's what's important in life. That's why I called it.

Caragh McMurtryGuest48:10

That's why I called it neurodiverse sport, because I didn't call it neurodivergence sport, because I knew that one day it will be neurodiverse and it it encompasses everyone. So that is definitely, that's the goal.

Dr Olivia KesselHost48:24

Supporting everyone on that personalized level so that they can be accepted for who they are and can reach the goals that they want to reach 100% Excellent. Well, it's been lovely speaking to you, Kara.

Caragh McMurtryGuest48:34

It's been great speaking to you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast Cool, thank you.

Dr Olivia KesselHost48:38

Thank you for joining us, send Parenting Tribe. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Please follow us on Instagram at Send Parenting Podcast. We'd love to hear your feedback from each episode, wishing you and your family an active week ahead. Bye, bye, bye.