Episode 38: ADHD & Nutrition with Lucinda Miller

Please excuse any error as this transcript has been auto-generated

Dr Olivia KesselHost00:08

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, Dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, Alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In this episode, we will be speaking with Lucinda Miller, who has over 25 years of experience as an atropath. She is founder of NatureDoc, an inclusive clinic which understands neurodiversity and the specific nutrition challenges this can present. Lucinda specializes in pediatric nutrition and nutrition for supporting optimal brain function.

01:12

Today we will be exploring the impact of nutrition in relation to ADHD, which stands for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. It's a neurodevelopmental condition usually noticed around the age of six, but can be diagnosed as late as adulthood. A child can show signs of having difficulty sustaining attention, can be hyperactive, and can behave and act impulsively. This can really impact their performance at school, create behavioral challenges and cause problems at home. Please listen on for this enlightening and empowering discussion on how nutrition can really address some of these challenges. So welcome, Lucinda, to the Send Parenting Podcast.

01:57

It is such a pleasure to have you on the show today. I am so interested in picking your brain on nutrition and how that impacts and can have positive impacts in terms of ADHD. I know personally from my own experience as a medical doctor nutrition doesn't rate high on the syllabus in medical school and it's not often the first go-to if you go to your GP. But personally from my own experience, I suffer from psoriatic arthritis and I get really bad joint pain and I've really found that food can influence flare-ups of that joint pain and actually by cutting out certain foods I've been able to manage my joint pain without having to go to the classic medication route. And so I don't know a lot about this. In the realms of neurodiversity, especially through the lens of ADHD, how did you get interested in that kind of connection between diet and ADHD and how that can actually maybe alleviate some of the symptoms that people are experiencing or children are experiencing?

Lucinda MillerGuest03:03

So this was well before I was diagnosed with ADHD. I was diagnosed with ADHD age 31. And I got into the whole nutrition thing, age about 25. And the first thing that I did was to eat more protein and less sugary foods, so have kind of like a savory breakfast, lots of eggs etc. And it was life-changing for me. I mean totally, and like my energy levels, my focus, my concentration, everything was so much better. And I didn't even really know about ADHD at that point. I just assumed it was me. I was sort of associating it with, as I said, energy dips, lack of focus, being quite bored in situations. But I hadn't sort of connected the dots until later on, when in fact my husband had been diagnosed with ADHD and he said I think you've got quite a lot of traits and so I went for a diagnosis. But I wouldn't have necessarily. I guess I was associating with other things other than a specific sort of neurodivergence at that time. And it was really interesting because it's sort of a way that I've eaten and I've brought up my children to eat and the way my husband eats now is being to get those blood sugars well balanced. And it made such a difference to us that I guess it seemed what you would do for any kind of condition because it's less inflammatory and it was more than when I started getting into supporting children and adults with ADHD. Through my own diagnosis and also our son and our daughter have a diagnosis now so basically four out of five of us are ADHDers that I realized that how profound just those simple changes could be on the ADHD brain and then actually taking it wider than that, knowing how much the medication can suppress your appetite whilst doing that medication window, and how important that really substantial breakfast is prior to taking the medication to therefore help with things like binging and cravings and things in the evening. So it all sort of. That was the where I first got into it, but it's become such an important foundation of our overall work is to get the good nutrition in.

05:33

But it's not just about a healthy diet. There are a lot of neurodivergent people also have other things going on. So very often there is a background of inflammation, whether it's an arthritis, whether it's hyper mobility, whether there's gut issues, and even though there's only an association with all these, but there are certain metabolic pathways, inflammatory pathways, that people with neurodivergence and people with these other conditions share and about double the number of people compared with the normal population that have of neurodivergent people have hyper mobility for instance. So there's sort of it's there are.

06:19

We've learned over the years that there are some shared similarities, not just the neurodivergence, and we find that if you can get a diet and other nutrition or aspects in whether it's extra vitamins, extra minerals, probiotics, fish oils etc. Into the system, then very often not just the pain or hyper mobility or whatever is supported, but also the focus is easier, sort of emotional regulations easier, the mood swings are easier. You know, you know all of those things. The sleep issues all come together. So very often when you work on one side it works on the other. So it's a broader picture than just eating a good diet, but the foundations are eating good diet.

Dr Olivia KesselHost07:05

And that kind of has a ripple effect across all of the potential issues or concerns that they are having. Yeah, I mean, it makes complete sense. But sometimes, you know, with children and I think it's you know it's much easier as an adult to make those kind of logical decisions, or it's even still challenging with an adult. But with children, to impact what they're eating and to enable them to have that well-rounded diet that you've talked about, how do you counsel parents to achieve that or to start to implement and what would be, in your mind, a really good diet for an individual?

Lucinda MillerGuest07:48

So I appreciate there are some very selective eaters. There's an awful lot of neurodivergent people who have quite strong you know a versions to certain foods, really struggle with certain textures. You know there are lots of allergies and tolerances. Again, people with neurodivergence are more likely to have the atopic eczema, asthma, hay fever, etc. Especially ADHDers. So I know it's really really complex feeding a child with ADHD and because they're often quite defensive, you know change is hard for them in terms of food. They look at something, they smell it, they don't just know that's not for me. So it's picking your battles to begin with and thinking what small thing could I change? And that could be something simple like giving them a boiled egg at breakfast. If they don't like eggs, but not allergic to eggs, but they quite like porridge, you can crack an egg in the porridge when you're cooking the oats. You could put an egg in a muffin or a pancake. So you know you can get that extra protein in. I'm not saying everyone it has to eat eggs every day, but it's just an example of a food that is high in protein, high in choline, high in all the good nutrients that feed the brain and and to think you know, could we switch to a more savory breakfast rather than the crunchy sweet cereals? And very often that can be tackled, maybe at the weekend, on the school holidays or at half term when there's a little bit more time, and so that you can experiment and you know. So you find something that they really, really like, like waffles, and if you make waffles from home you can get yogurt, eggs, you know, I know grated carrot, chia seeds. I mean the works in into a waffle but they love them. And I'm okay with putting a bit of maple syrup and Hamson fruit and all of that beside to make it really delicious. And if they really like those, then you can make more and they freeze beautifully and you just pop them in the toaster straight out of the freezer and they defrost and toast up and there you go, you've got your breakfast.

10:02

So you find things over time that they do like and I know some of them are fickle and sometimes they love something for months and then they totally go off it. But that's their sort of natural instinct, saying I've had enough of that. I need need change, and remember people with ADHD things that motivate dopamine to build, build up dopamine is change. So very often something new is really helpful and I think that. So, yeah, so you might need to think of a different angle and that's where my recipes. So I've written two cookbooks and also every week in our newsletter I send out the. So we've got probably 250 recipes on the site and then probably about 250 in the in the cookbooks. So there's an awful lot of recipes to get ideas from. Even if you don't stick with that and that one precisely, it'll give you an idea of something, whether it's for breakfast, whether it's for a snack. And there are amazing things you can do with a tomato sauce. You can cut red lentils into it and that will give some protein and some fiber and some iron and some zinc. So there are lots of things that you can do to adapt, but I would do a low and slow and I would get them on board with you.

11:23

And and that can just be Creating a culture at home about enjoying food. So it could be in the summer, having a picnic or a barbecue, rather than being round the kitchen table eyeballing each other, especially if there's something new, because they often like to dip in and that you know something's on the table. They could taste little things, but there wouldn't tick if you put it on their plate. They might object to it. So it's just all about creating and going to things like food markets or Farm shops.

11:55

If you're out of a city or you know what I mean, making food fun, maybe you know there could be some cooking classes in the school holidays or somewhere where it's Taking them out of their normal Sitting around a table scenario and looking at different ways of feeding. And you know being social as well. You know being with other families and seeing what other families do, and I very much. I think you often get this well, why. You know, muhammad, he can have oreos at home or whatever, and you'll go. Yeah, well, he also will be having Lamb with couscous, etc. Rather than we're having our sepid's pie, you know. So it's lamb, but it's different. And so we all eat differently at home.

12:43

And I think the most important thing is, people get really stressed about what happens when they're outside the home.

12:48

What are they going to eat?

12:48

You know there's lots of Ultra process foods and sweet foods and whatever.

12:54

I think, well, if you can get that culture at home really motivated by food, then that's what they're really going to learn, because they put a lot of emotion, especially ADHD, into their food.

13:07

So if they always loved the lasagna you made, or the bolognese you made, or a sheps pie Guess what when they're at university or wherever they're at, you know being independent, they're going to call you, they're going to want you to email you. They're your recipe because that's the one they'll remember, because that will be the nice time at home when they felt comfortable and safe, whereas actually they won't really remember Specifically what they ate at Muhammad's house or Sandra's house or whoever's house. As much you know, it'll be a passing moment, and so those habits that you put in at home Will be the habits that they will learn over a lifetime, and I think so. Even though good nutrition is good for now like how's my energy levels today, my focus, my sleep, all of those it's also important to think in the very long term about kids, because they're going to be feeding themselves for many, many years beyond childhood.

Dr Olivia KesselHost14:05

Yeah, and, and the kind of foundations that you put in childhood. I mean, I think there was a statistic lately, that, about how many people now order from delivery versus cooking at home, and it was just shocking, you know, absolutely shocking, how that, you know, the trend is to just, you know, order food out. So to put those foundations of cooking food and it sounds like, you know, maybe in the beginning hiding some of the good stuff so that they could Learn to like it but putting those foundations in place so that they have Good behaviors when they, when they do become adults and you have no control over them anymore, um, you know when they're away from the house that they have those good, good eating habits.

Lucinda MillerGuest14:45

Absolutely, and I think you know the teenage years can be tricky to navigate Um and they're the hardest, I'd say, unless, obviously, you've got a little kid that's always struggled with their Food, food choices, you know, or they've got multiple allergies, etc. But I think the teenage years are really really key to Um, to to work on, and that's sometimes when they do need extra supplements to help support them.

Dr Olivia KesselHost15:12

Which is interesting actually, in terms of, um, some of the stuff I've read that you've done in terms of looking at deficiencies in adhd, with looking at dopamine, looking at noradrenaline, and and, and what kids needs, um, how do parents Know if their child is deficient, first of all, and then how can they Navigate that, either through food or with supplements, and then, and then maybe we can go on to the teenage years, which sounds like they're going to get even more complex.

Lucinda MillerGuest15:41

So dopamine, okay, dopamine is. It's very complex, like you know, all these neurotransmitters, um, but the. Just to keep it really basic, you need something called tyrosine to help make dopamine. And Tyrosine comes from protein, so it comes from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, etc. So the really good quality proteins, okay, and um then. So that's really important to get tyrosine to actually create that dopamine in the first place. Then there are various things called cofactors which help to Regulate that dopamine, so a to help convert it and so help to convert the tyrosine into dopamine, but also to help that dopamine reach the parts in the body, in the brain, that it needs and to actually work properly and sustain the brain for long enough to work.

16:37

And those key nutrients I mean there are many but the ones that you know iron, um, which I'll talk about in a minute um, zinc, magnesium, vitamin D. So there are many others, but those are the ones. I'm just going to talk about those four because they're kind of easy to spot Deficiencies as well. So, iron, we've all heard of anemia. So anemia is where your blood levels are under 12, but there's a blood marker called ferritin which is iron stores. Now that range is between 12 and 400. For dopamine to be efficiently made and remember, someone with ADHD will have the genetics will make everything a little bit harder, bit harder to connect and stick together and to be created. So you need to optimize everything. So it's not that standard person, it's not that. The RDA it's what the levels is needed is around 70 or above. Now most people did a blood test. You'd probably find them around 20, 25, 30. So they're not anemic, but they just don't have enough to convert that tyrosine into the dopamine.

17:49

So signs that someone could be low in iron could be very pale, tired, quite pasty, often feel quite sick in the tummy, quite a low appetite and probably a child that is either plant-based, heading towards plant-based. We don't eat red meat. It's the sort of very classic, sort of family sort of mantra. So, and it's much harder to get enough iron in, some people are brilliant at absorbing iron from their foods and they don't need to. They can live off broccoli and tofu and be absolutely fine, but others can't, or they need this heme iron which is more from the animal produce, but so that's really important.

18:29

So, as I said, sort of pale, lethargic, sort of almost probably more inattentive ADHD. If you're going to get one tall. If you're going to sort of, you know, narrow it down a bit and then we've got zinc. Zinc is absolutely key for making all your neurotransmitters, dopamine as well, and zinc also helps to make all your gastric juices. So it helps the child to grow and it's one of the main reasons why people you know kids on ADHD medication don't grow, because obviously the medication suppresses the appetite and if they haven't got enough zinc in the system then you know that's going to sort of suppress their appetite even more. They're going to be more picky eaters because it affects your sense of smell and taste, and so zinc's really key. Zinc helps again turn on this astral choline, which helps with emotional regulation, self-regulation, motivation, focus, learning, working memory, processing, all that sort of thing.

Dr Olivia KesselHost19:32

So zinc is really key and so when do we get zinc in our natural environment? Sorry, where do we get? Zinc in our natural environment In our eating.

Lucinda MillerGuest19:41

So the best food you can eat, which not many people do and I'm not pushing this, it's expensive as well, but it's not just about oysters, but you can also get from all sort of seafood. So prawns, scallops, you know, fish, et cetera, but meats and dairy, et cetera. So it's very much you'll hear this over and over again it's those nutrient dense foods. You know, the ones that are sort of you just know, have more nutrition in them than, say, white rice. You know the difference is going to be marked. And so signs that someone might be low in zinc this is not perfect and this can mean lots of other things, but little white speckles on the nails, you know those like little flecks on the nails which often happen more when they go through growth spurt or through puberty, and another key one which can be meaning low iron and low zinc. So I want to tie this together. Is they chew on the color of their t-shirts, or chew on their t-shirts or on their sleeves and this? Or they're putting things in their mouths that are non-food items, so permanently putting pens in their mouths or tissues in their mouths, and always chewing on paper or whatever. This is called Pica, p-i-c-a If you're pregnant and you were craving something like coal or ice cubes, then that's called Pica and it's that same thing and it shows that you're quite deficient in iron and or zinc. So one or both is the two. So and as I said, a very sort of very picky eating, very narrow eating, very small, not growing very quickly, is quite a low zinc kind of picture.

21:26

And then I talked about magnesium. Magnesium is a critical mineral for about 400 pathways in the body. One of the key things it does, which I think is so pertinent to ADHD, is it helps to take carbohydrate from the bloodstream into our cells, so our brain cells and very often kids with ADHD really struggle with their blood sugars, so they can find that they can get very hangry very easily. There's a lot of meltdowns after school because they haven't eaten much lunch, they've been on their medication, they've been in that low appetite and so there's a lot of hangry behavior. They often wake up in the morning absolutely just in the worst mood. The whole family start off with this dynamo that wakes up in the morning just in bits and that you know that they're not going to be right until they've eaten. And very often they just suddenly perk up having eaten, because suddenly their blood sugars are up and so lack of magnesium means which is so important for the whole dopamine pathway, et cetera can mean that that blood sugar is more dysregulated than it should be. So magnesium it comes from things like leafy greens, nuts, seeds again all these nutrid.

22:50

And dark chocolate. Brilliant dark chocolate can be an absolute winner for the ADHD brain if you need that kind of, as long as it's not too late at the night, because obviously because of the caffeine, but you know, just to help get the brain in focus. I literally dark chocolate is the thing that changed my life in terms of my ADHD. You know I've taken many supplements. I really, really love some of the supplements I've been taking over the years and they work some way, but it's the dark chocolate that makes the biggest difference to my brain. So, and I often have it at breakfast, which sounds quite random, but it really sets up my day brilliantly and it just gives me a hyper focus for several hours, which, you know, nothing else has done.

Dr Olivia KesselHost23:30

So anyway, that's just a little side, and what an enjoyable way to start the day. Not a hard, not a hard sell, probably for kids.

Lucinda MillerGuest23:36

And it's why a lot of my recipes are like chocolate waffles, chocolate muffins, you know, because just chocolate's my obsession but also magnesium. So other signs that someone might need magnesium, because obviously you're everyone's thinking about oh I don't know if it's gonna be suitable for mine Things like growing pains, twitches, ticks, restless legs and constipation, because basically it helps with the muscles to relax. So if you think about it, it helps the bowel to move, it helps the ticks to calm down, it helps the muscles to relax with the painful growing pains, et cetera. So those are signs that magnesium can be really, really helpful. And then I talked about vitamin D.

24:20

Vitamin D we get from the sun and so it's great at this time of year, being June, so we're getting it naturally from being outside. But in the winter very often that we can become very depleted, especially in the UK. This is why the NHS recommend that we all take a vitamin D supplement between October and March. Obviously that's primarily for immunity. That's the motivation for that, but equally it's also really important for the brain. We, you know, a lot of people get sad in the winter. They become low because they're without the sun and I think that's probably magnified in people with ADHD they can become quite low.

25:01

But vitamin D is also super important for actually helping things like metalphenidate to work. So there've been lots of studies to show that typically people with ADHD have the lower end scale of vitamin D just generally, and that if you supplement with vitamin D it can enhance the metalphenidate Because again, it's part of that dopamine pathway in helping to balance norepinephrine. If you look at the pathways, you kind of you see you've got tyrosine and tryptophan at the beginning of the pathway and then you need vitamin D and things like omega-3 to then turn on those pathways to then make efficient dopamine and norepinephrine. So those are the two things that tend to be a problem. So when you're looking at genetic pathways you can see which nutrients are needed and which sort of holes are there.

Dr Olivia KesselHost25:53

So like it's kind of like supplying the building blocks for what you need as the end product that you might be deficient in, and by supplying those in abundance then the body's more able to navigate those pathways to producing that dopamine.

Lucinda MillerGuest26:05

Absolutely so.

26:06

To begin with, when you're going down this journey, the likelihood of your child being a little bit low I'm not gonna say deficient, but on the low end scale of a lot of these nutrients is probably quite real, and that I call these.

26:23

Obviously you try your hardest with the food, but the reality is it's damned hard to switch and, as I said, if you're making small changes and you've got an aphidet or a very selective eater, it could be super, super, super hard to change the diet. So this is where the supplements can make a massive difference and I call the supplements the scaffolding. The scaffolding's there just to keep having it in place. But over time, as those neurotransmitters are working better, inflammation comes down and everything gets nourished better. You can start taking it away and you may only need them from time to time. You know, or through some of the testing that we do, we can establish what are the main pathways that do will need longer term support and which things need, you know, just a little bit of extra just to build up to get them in a better place.

Dr Olivia KesselHost27:14

You know it's super interesting and you know I've heard, you know about the Zinc before as well and I've bought supplements and then she refuses. My daughter anyway refuses to take the supplements.

Lucinda MillerGuest27:26

So Zinc is one of the easiest, easiest supplements to get in and I tell you why. Okay, tell me why, because I'd love to know. I don't know how old she is, but basically you start with drops and the drops do not taste if you are deficient, but they taste a little bit metallic if you have enough in your system. How interesting? Yeah, so that's good. And so what you often do is you put it, put the drops, and you start literally with one drop which is one milligram I mean it's a weenie amount and you just build up slowly to the right sort of appropriate for the right age, and it really doesn't taste. It could get a little bit of apple juice, it could go in the porridge, it could get a little bit of fruit puree. So that's a good way. Starting is with liquid supplements, because they can be put in something sweet or thick or whatever. And then I don't advise you put it in water, because there's often a slight change of taste. You know. You know they're suspect.

28:31

And then the great thing about zinc is they tend to if you get the right ones, they come in really, really tiny capsules, so that once they're ready to take capsule that they're very, very easy to swallow because they're so tiny and they're not, they're not frightening to take. And again, there's lots of ways that you can get you know kids to swallow capsule, so it's easier. But one thing I suggest they do, which is not the healthiest option, and this is not perfect because I'm a realist is you know those little sweeties called tic-tacs. Yes, tic-tacs are, they are a capsule shape and they're peppermint or fruity or whatever, and kids rather like them. So if they can associate chewing on them and they're maybe swallowing one whole, then they'll go and they go. Well, you swallow capsule and they go. Oh, I can do that, it's not, you know, I mean. And so then the block's there, so it's often just a.

Dr Olivia KesselHost29:27

That's a great idea, you know, and it is about especially when they're fearful, and it's change, it's making it comfortable for that transition. So that's a really great tip. I will, I think I'll start on the drops and then I'll move to the tic-tacs.

Lucinda MillerGuest29:42

And the other thing is to also you know if you, you know the rest of the family, are taking supplements. You know ADHD has to have a lot of phome, so they want to do the same as others. And it's fascinating how that especially the younger kids will copy the older kids and so forth. So you could, even if you've got one, say your older child hasn't got ADHD. You know, if they're taking a multivitamin or something or an omega-3, then the others will be cured.

Dr Olivia KesselHost30:07

So I'm curious.

Lucinda MillerGuest30:09

Yes, so it all comes together. It's all about habits at home, really.

Dr Olivia KesselHost30:13

Yeah, and I think you know what's so powerful is, if you do this, if you put this kind of diet in place and if you, you know, build up the supplements where it's needed, the impact is absolutely incredible. Can you share with us kind of what the impact is for the individual I mean, you've kind of highlighted it for yourself a bit, how it changed your world but for a child, how can the? What is the impact that this can have on their going to school, functioning at home, their behavior?

Lucinda MillerGuest30:44

So, as I said, you know, mesophiladate can be life-changing for lots of kids. A lot don't get on with it either, so then there's no other solution and a lot of people spend months trying lots of different options and it's still not quite right or it's only working in a window. So you're left with someone who's rather spent by the end of the day, rather fractious, needing to decompress a lot from their day, you know. Then they may not take the medication at the weekends or they may not be medicated. There may be many reasons, you know. But so what we find with a nutrition is it helps overall. So very often parents will say look, we've really worked on the nutrition over the summer holidays and I'm just going to see how they get on for the first few days at school without medication, because they've been so much better balanced.

Dr Olivia KesselHost31:37

Wow.

Lucinda MillerGuest31:37

And I think the big thing is. So some people are motivated because their child is not performing or achieving what they should at school. So they can see this incredibly bright kid who's super distracted, and the medication, as I say, can be life changing and suddenly they're going from bottom set to top set, you know, or creating A grade, essays, etc. But that's not always the case and it's often there are behavioral issues. You know it's the it's, it's it's, I think, very often, and so this is not necessarily the ADHD itself, but it comes alongside it, because they're very dysregulated and they're finding, you know, everything very hard. Everything is like super hard to to sort of get into places. There's an awful lot of parents and other family members sort of walking around them on eggshells, not quite sure how they're going to react. There's a lot of over reactivity and so, as I said, it's waking up in the morning in a filthy mood or, you know, being completely overwrought, overwhelmed by the end of school, so not being able to do any fun over after school activities, or really worrying about having a family event and you know this child ruining it for everybody because they're going to have a meltdown of some sort. And or you know, just they just feel totally dysregulated all the time and they're suffering. You can see that they're not happy or just they're losing self-esteem, and I think the nutrition can make a massive difference to that and it can help with sleep patterns and I think once you've got a better night's sleep, then they're going to be more regulated so that they'll feed better, they'll be able to focus better. So it all comes around and the number of times you know you've just we just had these parents who just said you've changed our whole family dynamics. You know mum's less stressed, she's been able to go back to work. You know we've now got more financial stuff, We've got more stability so we're able to put in place another therapy for them which is going to help with, I know, their audio processing or their visual processing or whatever it might be. They're getting on with their siblings. We feel we can go on a family holiday together.

34:03

You know we sort of feel that we're much more of a unit, because I love my ADHD, I wouldn't want to be anything different and I want everyone to really thrive with their ADHD. You know, I love the fact that we can all think you know laterally rather than you know and we are just thinking in 3D, thinking around problems being entrepreneurial is just, you know, if you think about it, most people, you know a lot of Olympiads, a lot of entrepreneurs. You know the really successful people in our world. Most of the famous people in the world are neurodivergent of some sort, whether they, you know, got three Olympic medals, whether they've created some multinational company or some fashion brand or an amazing photographer. And, yes, a lot of them have struggled with their mental health as well, and we just don't want them.

35:02

You know, if we can help with all those other bits alongside, then let the ADHD shine, because I think what it is, it's not the ADHD, it's all the other bits that come alongside it that can cause the problems. And, as I said, you know people say, oh well, you know it's better recognized, it's better diagnosed, it's, yes, fabulous, totally glad that that is the case, because it means that more people understand the way their brains work. But it also means that you know there's so much more that we can do with our brains and there's so many talented people and we just don't want them to be held back by mental health problems. You know pain, you know just general kind of malaise or called apathy, you know, all these things that come alongside and just gives them the confidence to be able to really shine.

35:59

And there are lots of kids with ADHD and neurodivergence who have very significant learning difficulties. You know, they're two, three, four, five years behind developmentally. And that's super tough too, because we often hearing about these heroes who've done this and that if you think, gosh, will my child ever do that? They may not. No, they may not. But I believe that every child has their talents and can shine. And if that's hidden by poor mental health, struggles with their physical health, et cetera, then you know that's such a shame, isn't it? But they can't be, you know, really come out of their shell and be the best version of themselves.

Dr Olivia KesselHost36:38

Yeah, giving them that, the potential to flourish. Whether that's, you know, Olympian, or whether that's you know being happy, being, you know, a childmind, or working at weight rows, you know it's finding that inner peace and balance within yourself, no matter where that's driving you.

Lucinda MillerGuest36:56

Absolutely.

Dr Olivia KesselHost36:58

It's stacking your mental well-being in favor for you to do well. You know, and at the end of the day, that's what really matters is how you feel within yourself, and all the strategies that you've talked about today is making that a level field for you to do your best and feel your best.

Lucinda MillerGuest37:16

Yeah, because you know I mean especially ADHD can really shine and really really support the rest of the world. You know, especially if there isn't significant learning difficulties, absolutely. But you know there's such a high proportion of people that are neurodivergent, who suffer from eating disorders, autoimmune disorders, cancers, diabetes, you know things that are extra layers on their lives. So it's just again, again, taking away those layers and helping to support them and keep them as strong as possible and resilient as possible and, as I said, shine as much as they can.

Dr Olivia KesselHost37:54

And I mean it does make me very sad that in medicine and you know I've worked as a GP as well that we don't bake that in more because it is such a powerful tool in our toolbox and it's and I'm not saying all physicians, because I don't I'm not a proponent of it, I'm a huge proponent of nutrition and there are many others out there, but it isn't business as usual yet for people who are seeking help from medical professionals.

38:17

So I think it's really important to get that knowledge out there about the power of nutrition.

38:23

Now, one of the things that has come up with some of the parents that I've talked with is how do you communicate the importance of nutrition to your children? Because there's a fine line and, in particular, my mom was talking to me about her son who had autism, and you know she was very much keen on him, knowing that you know sugars aren't good for you and you need to have proteins, and you know she thought she was helping him and was doing it in the best of intentions and he became hyper focused on it and actually it created an eating disorder for him and had to pull back from it, and that's, of course, not what her intention was. So it would be great to understand how do you communicate with your child, when is the right time? I like your ideas that you gave us initially about making it fun and having. You know, having it in that kind of way, but making sure that you don't create a problem with how you're trying to influence their nutrition. So what are your thoughts there?

Lucinda MillerGuest39:21

So this is the way I've done it with my kids and they have a really good approach to food. Now you know they're my eldest is 22. So you know that's, you know down to 15. And I think it is creating that positive food culture at home. I have, as far as I'm aware, I've never said sugar's bad. Okay, I've never highlighted a specific food as bad, because I fundamentally believe that all food is good if it comes in its natural form or almost natural form.

39:56

So there's there's sort of four categories of processing. You know you've got your apple, which is the natural apple. Then you've got the apple juice, which is slightly processed. Then you've got your homemade apple crumble that you've made at home, which has got sugar, flour, butter. So you know some people would pick that apart, saying saturated fat and sugar and gluten. No, it's a really good food that's been made with love at home, with glorious cooking smells. You know everyone's going to enjoy it as a family together. But then you've got the ultra processed foods, which is when you know it's an apple crumble from the supermarket and it's got 27 ingredients and there's probably only a small percentage of apple in the whole thing. And you know there are lots of flavorings and preservatives and emulsifiers and things in there and those aren't so good. So what I've always tried to do is cook as much from scratch at home and showing them that it's easy to make a crumble or it's easy to make a pesto, it's easy to make a hummus. Yes, we do buy those things sometimes, of course, you know you can be in a rush, there might be a last minute picnic, you know all those things you know. But those foods really should only be part of our diet. It's like 20% of our diet, not the 80% which is very often in people's diets. So it's all about a balance and I think it's all.

41:19

As I said, trying to give a bit of passion and interest into food is really important and, as I said, to not put down a food. So, as I said, you know you may be going to, you know they might go to five different houses over a week and they will see a different approach and even if they produce the same dish so say, it was a balsamio, it was produced at each house it would still be done in a different way. And I think that's you know. Someone might go microwave my saniya and someone might be, you know a vegan, saniya, and someone might be one with liver, and you know courgette. You know what I mean. They'd all do it slightly differently and it's for them to understand that what your parents are doing at home is, first of all, their best. Secondly, that you know if we cook from scratch and we enjoy food together, that's great for family bonding, it's great for us.

42:12

And you know what? I've been lucky. My kids have never been super duper reactive to sugar or E numbers, you know. And I don't know whether it's because they've got quite a good grounding already in their diet or whether we're just lucky. But you know what? I've just gone with the flow when they've been at birthday parties, but I've often fed them just before we've gone. So I've made sure they've had a really good meal so that they are less hungry. So they just go into automatically eat slightly less, because kids do have a shut off button, you know they just do so. Things like Halloween, you know, make sure they had a really good supper and then we go trick or treating and very often they come back with full bags and they'd eat in two or three sweets and you know whereas if they'd gone hungry, they'd have gobbled up the whole lot and gone completely hyperactive and tricky. So I think it's just using some common sense.

43:08

But I think it's so easy for parents because it's partly the culture we've been brought up in Naughty cake and I go, oh brilliant, I'm having cake. Oh, it's got some raspberries in it. Oh, it's got some pecans in it. You know what I mean. So I kind of pick apart, say, oh, how delicious and how enjoyable. Because you know, I know we wouldn't bake a cake every day, we just wouldn't. You know, cakes are for the weekends, after sport or you know whatever. Or it's a brownie. But I know there's some really good stuff. There's courgette, there's nuts, there's you know, I know whatever in there. So you can kind of.

43:42

I think it's all about being positive about food rather than I just think. You know. I mean it was really sweet the other day, about six months ago, our 15 year old he loves to do his research and he said okay, so if I buy a Domino's pizza or a Waitrose pizza or I make my own. And he said literally, he said Domino's, 20 pounds for a pizza. He said I don't have 20 pounds in my pocket, honey, okay, I think a Waitrose one was about nine or something, and he said, well, to make my own it would cost me four and I could make four pizzas.

44:22

You know, whatever it was, it was whatever it was, it was just hilarious. He'd done these calculations, so he worked out that actually it was you know, and so you know what I mean. It's to get them engaged and get them, you know, thinking about food and thinking about different angles to food, not just about, I think it's important to say you know this food would be, you know, great, and I just have eggs for breakfast. That will really help to give us great nourishment for our brains in the morning and then we won't be hungry at lunchtime and, you know, we'll be more focused. You can say that because that's positive, but I just don't say the negative stuff, I just ignore it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost44:55

No, that's it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I say to my daughter I'm like let's have some protein. You know it doesn't matter what it is, but let's have some protein because it's going to fuel your brain. I said, just like we have to fuel the car. And she's like, okay, I'm like you know you could choose nuts, peanut butter, you could have eggs. You know we could have some bacon. There's there's a lot to choose from, but we need, you know, just having a cereal. It's not going to cut it. You know your brain's going to go and run out of fuel really quickly at school, absolutely, sometimes on the holiday she can have it.

45:22

You know have the, have the. You know the Cheerios that, you know that's good fiber, but you know she can have it occasionally. So it's not an absolute no, but if you need to use your brain, you really want to fuel it like you would your car.

Lucinda MillerGuest45:33

Absolutely, and I just think, yeah, you just keep, keep it really positive, really light. It may be super frustrating because, you know, and that's why I think introducing new foods at the weekend really helps, because if they don't eat it, at least you've got a bit more bandwidth and they're not going to school on their stomach or whatever.

Dr Olivia KesselHost45:52

Yeah, exactly Less, pressure yeah.

Lucinda MillerGuest45:54

And new snacks after school when they're most hungry. You know, because that moment, and it's almost like, if you can get them home and then there's a platter on the table of I don't know olives and cheese and crudités and whatever, then they'll just pile through that as well. It's so true.

Dr Olivia KesselHost46:10

Choosing your moments, you know, and then orchestrating your moments, like you say, making sure their bellies are full before they go to a party. So it's a. It's a, you know, being a little bit clever about how, how you navigate food with your children. Those are really that's, you know. I'm going to use some of your tips in my own life. Now, talking about tips, what three? What I like to do at the end of these podcasts is kind of ask my guests what three top takeaway tips would you give parents to take away from this podcast that they can put in their pocket and pull out when they need?

Lucinda MillerGuest46:43

So I'd say the first thing is a very protein rich breakfast, even better savory breakfast, you know, eggs with feta or something, but you know, I know that could be a big ask for some people but basically getting some source of protein and breakfast. And then I think it's doing your best to have an unprocessed, so none of the ultra process, but unprocessed snacks for them. So, as I said, think simple things like cheddar cheese, olives, crudités, or more complex things like muffins, waffles, etc. Maybe some of the recipes from my books or my blog, and because those are the things that are going to nourish and those are the two meals that tend to be. So the breakfast and the snacks tend to be the things that are devoid of the key nutrients, like the zinc, like the magnesium, etc.

47:35

And then the third thing which we haven't really touched on too much is omega three, omega three fatty acids. There's been more research on omega three than anything else in terms of ADHD, and it comes from oily fish. So we're talking salmon, trout, mackerel, sardines, etc. Which can be in pate it's not just, you know, a piece in front of them or you can obviously take supplements as well, and that again, two to three times a week at least through the diet, and if it's a supplement it can be every day. And one of the signs that you one of the soft signs that shows deficiency because I always like to give people pointers so they know whether it's relevant to them is the sort of chicken rough skin at the top of the arms, with that sort of red rough skin which tends to be quite dry, and that can mean that more oily fish is needed. So that's just some sort of pointer, but so it's really protein at breakfast. Make your own snacks where possible and to give them lots of omega three.

Dr Olivia KesselHost48:36

Brilliant tips, and I know that you have an absolutely amazing course about ADHD and nutrition that's online now accessible for everybody that you released in April. So if this kind of whetted the appetite no pun intended for parents out there a resource that they can go to and I'll have links on my website and also in the podcast description for people to actually access that course Can you give just a little brief overview of what they would get from that course?

Lucinda MillerGuest49:04

So it's spread over seven weeks, it works out just over six hours and basically it's a breakdown of what's ADHD. We've got a psychiatrist who we interview, who I work with very closely, who helps to give an understanding of the diagnosis process. Then we've got a breakdown of the most important nutrient parts, of the most important parts of nutrition, and then where things can go wrong, like you know, like a fussy eating or and then lots of sleep tips, tips on how to take the medication, to optimize the medication, and lots of practical tips. So it's it's it's a lovely sort of Q&A form, most of it's with one of my team, tash, and then there's another member of my team, amber, who does more of the exercise. She's our coach, so she helps as an ADHD coach.

49:58

So sort of it's really kind of interactive. It's easy to watch. You can do it in five minute bites. You know there are lots of small topics, so it's very, very good for the busy parent who hasn't got much time to put sides of this. And then you can add on a Q&A option and you can add on coaching. So if you need the ADHD coaching to get everything into place, you can add that.

Dr Olivia KesselHost50:22

That's a fantastic resource, and it's great to find a resource that's easy to do in your home at your time, with the busy lives that people have, so that's a wonderful resource. Well, thank you so much, lucinda, for being on the podcast today. You have enlightened me and educated me, as I'm sure you have the listeners. So thank you.

Lucinda MillerGuest50:42

Olivia, thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed chatting to you.

Dr Olivia KesselHost50:47

Thank you for listening. Send parenting tribe. Please let us know if you enjoyed this podcast by leaving a review rating on your preferred podcast platform, for example Apple podcast or Spotify. This will help more people to find the podcast. Make sure you also tune in next week, where we will be joined by twice Olympian rower, cara McMurtry, who will share with us her road to diagnosis of autism and the challenges she has faced being neurodiverse in sports. Wishing you and your family a peaceful week ahead,

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