Automated Transcript Episode 29

Eating Disorders and Neurodiversity

Guest Speakers: Bernie Wright and Lisa Smith from NEDDE

Please excuse any errors as this transcript has been automatically generated

 Dr Olivia KesselHost00:07

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, i'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, i've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, i will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. In today's episode, we are going to explore the connection between eating disorders and neurodiversity. We'll discuss the importance, as a parent, to model our healthy eating behavior for our children and the importance of how we communicate food to them. We'll also explore some of the signs that could indicate that your child is struggling with food. We will be joined by the co-founders of NEDDE, which stands for Neurodiversity and Eating Disorders and Disordered Eating.

01:21

Bernie Wright is a neurodiverse counselor, a psychotherapist who trained as a master practitioner in eating disorders and obesity. Her co-founder, lisa Smith, is a registered nutritionist specializing in functional nutrition. This is a super interesting episode and I encourage you to listen on. So welcome, lisa and Bernie, to the Send Parenting Podcast. It is such a pleasure to have you here today. I have been super excited about picking your brains both of your brains about the connection between neurodiversity and eating disorders and how that connection is really super important in terms of how a healthcare professional responds to an individual so that they can properly support them and help them with their neurodiversity and with their eating challenge or disorder. I'm really happy to have you on the show. I guess the first question I want to ask you is you both come from different backgrounds and I think there's a real interesting synergy in how you found it N-E-D-D-E, which stands for neurodiversity, eating disorders and disordered eating. Got that right?

Bernie WrightHost02:27

I was like Well done, Olivia, well done.

Dr Olivia KesselHost02:31

So tell me a little bit about how you guys met and how you created this.

Bernie WrightHost02:34

We met a long time back. I've been, until recently, was clinical director for the clinical lead for the National Center for Eating Disorder and a senior trainer with them and, of course, once I trained with the National Center back in 2007,. The first thing we have to do, clearly, is get someone like Lisa nutritionist, a dietitian to work with us. So it's absolutely essential that you work with professionals like someone like Lisa Smith. So I was very, very lucky way back. I interviewed lots of people and really jailed with Lisa, because we really came from the same hymn sheet, so to speak. We believe that therapy works, but nutrition is essential. Nutrition is essential, but therapy is also essential. Have you got anything to add to that, lisa?

Lisa SmithHost03:22

Yeah, i would say from my perspective. I always use the analogy that nutrition is going to make sure that all jigsaw pieces are in the box, but I can't put picture together. So what I do is make sure that, bernie, there isn't something missing, a key thing missing, a key nutrient, maybe, like magnesium is missing. That would. Then, if we fuel the client properly and the main thing is sort of feeding the brain, then Bernie's work can actually become a little bit more effective, a bit quicker. So the two really do go hand in hand. They both have their own successes, but when you bring them together you really do amplify those.

Dr Olivia KesselHost03:57

That's a great analogy It makes me think of like a car like you're the petrol, Lisa and Bernie, you're the driving instructor and together you go places. So I love how that works together.

Bernie WrightHost04:06

I love how they live here And it takes so long for change to happen. And, as you know yourself and it's a case of just when you know way, way back when I was working, i said I actually said that nutrition had to go hand in hand with therapy, and I had extremely negative response. And yet I absolutely know for a fact now that there's not a therapist out there who would disagree with that. you know that you have to have everything working synergy together. So that's and as Clara's neurodiversity comes in the neurodivergent individual. my sense is that if you're working with disordered eating and if you do not work with the neurodivergent individual, then you will not meet the client in any shape, form or manner.

Dr Olivia KesselHost04:49

in my professional opinion, I know I absolutely agree with you And there is a real relationship between neurodiversities and certain eating disorders, you know. can you talk a little bit about that? you know how they are kind of linked or connected I don't know what's the right word. you know to obesity to anorexia.

Bernie WrightHost05:03

There's a huge overlap, huge percentage. I mean, I've just come off supervision with one of my superb supervisors And she bought so many clients and there was not one anorexic, binge eater or bulimic client that she bought me. There was not neurodivergent And you know, and that, I think, is a magic piece of the puzzle that we have been missing with eating disorder individuals, because we don't. You know, we have to treat them in a person's centre way. If they are neurodivergent, It's a different way of working. Would you agree with that Lisa?

Lisa SmithHost05:37

Yeah, I think also, Bern, is that the question of what came first, You know?

05:42

is it the neurodiverse behaviours and eating habits that have sort of restricted the diet that's led to the eating disorder, or is the fact that the eating disorder has resulted in a starving brain that actually is now leading into the neurodiverse behaviours and traits? So you've got this sort of great and they go between them and it's really trying to give the body what it needs to function optimally, because then, if we are feeding the brain and that's putting people in a better position to take on board changes or take on board therapy recommendations it's a question we get asked a lot on which, you know, is somebody, if they're autistic and they're anorexic, which is the priority, and I know, bern, you've got you've got a good answer to that, haven't you?

Bernie WrightHost06:31

Yeah, it's an answer in a way that, if we think about so many people that I've worked with that have been through the system, so to speak, and by the time they've ended up at my door as a therapist all these years, i tend to be treating them for post-traumatic stress disorder because of the way you treat the system, because you think about people going into hospital for treatment who are autistic And then they're told basically, you know, they say I can't bear that ticking clock because of sensory issues. You know the sounds and the hyposensitivity, the sensitivity to sound, and they're told that's your anorexic voice, that's your eating disorder talking, and so they come to me. They have come to me in the past really quite traumatised. So it's something about you know, and so many have been said you've got to leave your autism at the door. Well, that for me is a phenomenally incorrect thing to say, because without working with the whole person in a person-centered way and looking and supporting their neurodivergency, you're not going to meet the client and you will traumatise them.

Dr Olivia KesselHost07:31

Well, you know. I mean, if you look at like someone in a wheelchair, you would never say to them I'll get out of that wheelchair, come on, stop faking it up. You get, you can walk now, come on. Or deaf person stop, come on, come on here. Come on, let's see. You know, come on here. You just wouldn't say it. You know what I mean. Being autistic is part of you. You know, being having ADHD, having dyslexia, it's who you are. You can't separate yourself unless you become schizophrenic, which is not advisable. So, you know, i think minds need to shift in that. You know it is who you are And I mean. So if you were like, let's say, you have an anorexic individual and you know for sure, isn't neurodiverse versus? is neurodiverse? is how you treat them completely differently or is it similar? you know.

Bernie WrightHost08:10

I would treat them very differently, olivia. So if someone is neurotypical, then we can, you know, support them as we are taught, so you can be more prescriptive. You can sort of say this is you know, this is what we know from our experience. If you eat A, b, c and D, then change will happen, you know. And, of course, if you and you know we do things like supporting change and behavioral differences.

08:33

Well, if you're neurodivergent, asking for change can be excruciating. So there's something about the. This pace is very, very different. So when I train, when we train, it's something about working, you know, at the pace of the client. You know, at the speed that they can work at the processing of language. That is going to be different in people who are neurodivergent and just meeting them in their world. And what's gone so badly wrong for so many years has been that we have attempted to put, you know, square pegs into round holes and expect them to conform to our standards. And, as a neurodivergent person myself, you know, struggle very much, struggling through the system. You know it's my total passion that people do not have to struggle as people like probably you and I, olivia, have done in the past and continue to do so on occasion, like when I couldn't get on this podcast.

Lisa SmithHost09:31

I think from the nutrition side it's more to do with the communication. So I was seeing a label just helps me to know how to communicate with someone better. The actual thing that I'm trying to do is to feed the brain. I need to get these key nutrients into the body so that hormones and neurotransmitters can be synthesized. Probably you know if you, if you're missing raw ingredients I always use the analogy it's like trying to make a loaf of bread without any yeast. It might only be a tiny little bit of yeast that you need, but if you haven't got that we haven't got, say, zinc or B6 in the body then those new hormones and neurotransmitters are not going to be, you know, sort of functioning as best they be the synthesis of them. So the actual aim is very much the same. Let's get the body sort of nutritionally sound, let's feed the brain as such. But then it's the communication that's slightly different.

10:21

So again with the neurotypical, i mean I never taught food, you know. I'm sort of a talk about the individual, about them, their sleep, their anxiety, their mood, which would they like to see a change in. Because once we can get away from the food as a problem, then eventually food becomes the answer instead of the problem. Because if we say, okay to improve your mood, we could do with increasing serotonin. So serotonin for the body to make it It needs these ingredients in its recipe. Have we got those in? If not, how can we get them in? So it's working very gently to try and introduce things. With the autistic individual it can be more restrictive, but I do at times use supplements because we can get taken into account textures, tastes, so it can be a little bit more challenging to get in those nutrients. So sometimes supplements are the easier way to make the change so that then we can see sort of the reduction in maybe the behaviors and the traits a little bit.

Bernie WrightHost11:16

And Lisa, for those who don't know, could you just say a bit more about the serotonin?

Lisa SmithHost11:20

Oh sorry. I mean serotonin is one of your happy hormones. It's very much associated with mood, sleep, That's an anxiety. That's where it's commonly known. But it's also very much associated with pain perception and gut motility. So if you have low serotonin, we have low mood, high anxiety, poor sleep, sluggish bowels and increased pain perception. I get to meet, certainly, an individual who's suffering with anorexia, who hasn't got a low mood, poor sleep and got issues and high anxiety. So it is a real key And, of course, it's what most antidepressants are based upon and that is the most common medication that I see people with eating disorders are given.

Dr Olivia KesselHost12:02

And is there a way to replenish that naturally through your diet to create those building blocks to make the serotonin?

Lisa SmithHost12:07

Yes, certainly You know. If you think that all your body, every cell in your body, is made up of some element protein And the one that's an amino acid these are elements of protein is trip to fan And we need trip to fan. But then we also need the things that know that's good, the yeast that glues it together. So we need the zinc, we need the B6. So it's looking at, you know, how can we get these in which foods are acceptable? So for trip to fan, trip to fan, you know Turkey, which quite often is okay unless you're vegan or vegetarian. It's low fat, it isn't a fear food as such. So it's looking at, which foods can we put into, enhance the production, naturally, of this neurotransmitter hormone that's so important to health and well-being.

Dr Olivia KesselHost12:48

It explains why, after you know, with my American accent, after Thanksgiving or after Christmas I guess here eating a big turkey, you get quite sleepy. It's from the trip to fan in the turkey that you're eating Absolutely.

Lisa SmithHost12:57

There are reasons. there are reasons that things are called comfort foods.

Dr Olivia KesselHost13:02

You know, they offer that feeling Absolutely, and you know it's interesting because having that personalized approach and having that communication that you touched upon, lisa, i know that you know, as a parent myself and talking to other parents who have neurodiverse children, you know we try, and you know, make them have these healthy diets you know might be an ADHD diet or, you know, a diet for autism to help them, and sometimes you can cause problems by trying to implement healthy lifestyle change. You know not meaning to, but I've, you know, spoken to parents who are like I've. Actually I've created this problem with my autistic child. He's now going anorexic because of what I've done And I think you know how could you advise parents in terms of how is best to communicate to children about healthy eating without causing those kind of problems that I've just illustrated?

Bernie WrightHost13:45

Great, question Lisa, can I ask that one?

Lisa SmithHost13:47

Well, just in a moment, One of the main things that I say, olivia, it isn't about taking things out of diet, it's what can you put?

Dr Olivia KesselHost13:55

in, you know, unless there's a good reason that something should be taken out.

Lisa SmithHost13:59

Ie, you know, from an allergy perspective, because there are all of these diets. You know, you've got the gaps diet, you've got the ADHD diet, et cetera. But, as one of Bernie's lines is, if you've met one neurodivergent person, you've met one neurodivergent person And what we're then saying is well, everybody, even, is the same. All ADHD people need this diet, and we're forgetting how unique we are. Every one of us is different. So it's not about the diet, it's about the individual who is in front of you. So I'm always saying it isn't about what can we take out, it's about what can we get in. And as a from a nutrition side, i have to take my nutrition hat off sometimes because, if you know, is it better that somebody doesn't eat broccoli at all? or they eat broccoli smothered in tomato ketchup? Well, to me, if they're eating it with tomato ketchup, absolutely fine. So it's to take away some of these? oh, we can't have that, it's a bad food. But you know the message is that food is all bad.

14:51

It's like, no, let's take that away. And let's consider not just per meal, is this meal healthy? but maybe let's take it over a broader spectrum. And if somebody will eat eight florets of broccoli smothered in cheese sauce or tomato ketchup, that's absolutely fine. Yeah, let's not say, oh, you can't have tomato ketchup. So it's been a lot more flexible. And it isn't about getting the most healthy diet overnight. It's about let's do a bit more than we did yesterday and just keep going making small improvements.

Bernie WrightHost15:18

Yeah, and recognizing when your child, or even yourself, can absolutely not eat what is advised. you know, and that we have to be so careful, and because you're absolutely right, olivia and I've seen a lot of parents, and absolutely through no fault of their own, make the situation so much worse, you know, because they're desperately trying to do everything that thinks right in a society that doesn't understand, you know. so you're fighting uphill the whole way anyway, and I thought that's, yeah, the terminology yeah, the terminology is really important to Olivia as well.

Lisa SmithHost15:53

You know saying things like bad fats we don't want to eat fats because to the anorexia, it's somebody suffering with anorexia. That is a complete fear. So I always try and establish now I'd recommend establishing what are the real fear foods, what are the safe foods, the foods that really don't take any effort to eat, and then which are the ones that we could possibly try And how can we blend those in with those safe foods without it being trauma either from you know, the anorexic behaviors or from the autistic behaviors?

Dr Olivia KesselHost16:22

Yeah, it's interesting because I say to my doctor and I was like I said, oh, aren't we? because we've been on like, isn't this healthy diet? great, she's like, mommy, i'm not, i don't need to be on a diet. I'm like, oh, i shouldn't have used even that word diet, you know because, even at 11,.

16:32

She views that, as I don't want to lose weight, i don't need to be on a diet, and I said, no, i didn't mean healthy diet, I mean healthy eating, and she loves it. She's like, oh, i love the healthy eating, but it's not a diet, mommy. And I'm like, oh goodness, so yeah, i said the wrong word.

Lisa SmithHost16:43

And words are so, so important And something about 80, 20, 80% to teach our children.

Bernie WrightHost16:51

But actually it's really okay And unless you've got allergies and things, obviously clearly to have an ice cream or to have it's a rigidity And we all know. We all know children haven't been allowed to have those at home And they go to a kiddie school party and they get everything else not nailed down from the sweeps. And then, of course, what we do, we set our children up totally innocently because they're always gonna be looking for that little that dopamine hit from all those sweets they had at their friend's house that are not allowed to have at home. So it's, as you said, a difference, like walking a tightrope.

Dr Olivia KesselHost17:23

It is. And I think you know, if you model it as a parent as well, if you eat the way that you want and if you cook healthy meals and if you get your kid involved in cooking and you make it fun, then you start to see, you know, that kind of enjoyment of the food. And then I know I hide a lot of stuff that I want my daughter to eat, you know. So I'll make flapjacks, thick nuts and seeds in it that she doesn't know about. You know that it tastes good. Yeah, they've got a lot of sugar in them as well and golden syrup, but they've also got a lot of good stuff. So it's finding that kind of how can I get the good stuff in and make her want to eat it? So yeah, i think your advice is good.

Bernie WrightHost17:54

Absolutely, absolutely, Olivia. And something about also being careful if your child is anorexic, because if you do, if they catch you doing that and they will if they're anorexic, then the trust will go.

Dr Olivia KesselHost18:06

So it's something that we have to be so careful. Well, that's a good point, because it's not my world. So that is actually a very good point of and I guess it's also age specific as well, you know, when they're not asking you what's in things. So that's a very good point. And do you find also that there's a different attitude in terms of whether it's a boy or girl and how a mom or a dad responds to children who have eating disorders? Depends?

Bernie WrightHost18:30

I think it's fine. I think I always say that anybody who's got a child with anorexia, for example, running a significant eating disorder, bearing mind and liver. it's also really important that we always state that anorexia is a small percentage of people And actually the atypical anorexics, the ones who will be in the larger body, often get looked. they get forgotten about because they're not sick enough. So for parents out there who's child's larger or even considered a medically large, we have to be careful that we, you know, to put somebody who's got an eating disorder on a diet is dangerous.

19:08

So it's about how we deal with the language we use at home and how we eat ourselves. And you know, sort of. I mean I will actually say to any parent out there who's listening please, please, please, never talk about dieting in front of your children Ever. Never mention I'll put on weight over the holidays, or look at me, i'll put on weight or my trousers, don't it? You're setting them up totally innocently and as a mother who did that. so it's not a criticism, but it can set them up for that lifetime of dieting and they might start a diet at 11, 12, 13, 14 and then away they go, and so if your child is underweight, you know.

19:47

talk about gaining health you know, a healthful life, eating healthfully, not gaining weight. telling an anorexic to gain weight is terrifying, So it's the language we do use. but do remember that anorexics also come in large bodies, So we need to be fearful about our child, who's in a large body but has the same mindset and the same fears and the same huge anxiety as the one who's just about to go into hospital.

Lisa SmithHost20:14

I think also, as well as the language and the words we keep mentioning, olivia, we have to consider our behaviours as well. I had a client recently who came to me concerned about her daughter was eight and had started restricting her eating. And you know she would, and it was everything. She was restricting, even treats and good things. And it came to her head when the mum asked to what fruit she wanted in her lunchbox and she said blueberries. Mum said but you don't like blueberries. And Dad said yes and no. So but what it was? when we spoke about it, her daughter never actually saw mum eating, because she ate breakfast after she dropped the kids at school, she had lunch on her own and then she ate dinner with husband when he came back from work after the children were in bed. So that behaviour is suggesting to the daughter her mum doesn't eat, she's okay.

Bernie WrightHost20:59

So you know, there are things like that.

Lisa SmithHost21:01

You have to think. What behaviours? what do they see as seen from my behaviour? How am I around? food, you know, as Bernie said? if so, oh, i shouldn't eat that because it's fattening. Little comments like that really do get picked up on.

Dr Olivia KesselHost21:14

Oh God, i feel so guilty. You know what I mean. I'm definitely guilty of those things, you know. Oh yoyoyoy, so it's a yeah, tell me about it, olivia, tell me about it.

Bernie WrightHost21:24

That's going to be a work in progress. Yeah, well, that's a problem doing our job. is you look back and realise all those things like goodness, i've done it different. Okay, oh so with scales, i invite parents to ideally not have scales in the house, although it can be useful to sort of check on. you know, check on the monthly basis yourself sometimes can be useful, but scales are for fish And more people get eaten to the wall is because they started wearing themselves and got an obsession about it, you know, and the thing is that so no number on the scale is low enough once you start going down.

Dr Olivia KesselHost21:58

Interesting, yeah, very, very interesting. How can parents recognise the signs? And we've talked a lot about anorexia, but there's also the flip side of that, which is obesity and not being able to stop eating as well, which is another issue that can happen. How do parents realise, or what are some of the signs that they can look out for? You know the story that you used, lisa was very evident that the child didn't want to eat anymore, but are there subtler signs that parents should be looking for It was.

Bernie WrightHost22:25

That's a great question, olivia. And we noticed in the pandemic, for example, as you know, the rate of eating disorders went absolutely through the roof And parents realised for the first time their children did have issues. You know they'd come home. So if a child, for example, says oh, you know, you come down the morning and there's some breakfast there, that looks it's been eaten, but actually they just put three corn flakes in and put a bit of milk on And said they've had breakfast and flow through after school. And they come back and they say oh, mum, i can't eat tonight because I've already eaten X, y and Z and I even ate Sophie's dessert, you know. And they haven't eaten at all.

22:58

So a lot of parents realised in the pandemic that their children were actually living on hot air and realised that they were being bulimic or that they over ate. So it all came out. So if your child for continually says to it they've already eaten or they're not hungry, and that goes on a continual basis, that will be, you know. Open your ears to that, you know. And if your child is always yearning and craving for desserts or sweets and refined sugars, you know, be alert for that, without going hysterical about it, you know, without going. Oh, that's not healthy. Actually, lisa, you talk more about that because that's your world.

Lisa SmithHost23:33

I think you know, when you're looking at the going to the other end of the scale, you know, being in a larger body, there's a lot of physiological interview that comes in. So this is you mentioned dopamine earlier. You know, if somebody from physiology just either doesn't have sufficient dopamine, they don't make it sufficiently, they break it down too quickly or they can't utilise it well enough, then they are going to be looking for that dopamine hit. And then the diet. That dopamine hit is likely to come from salt, sugar, caffeine, ie diet coax the usual one, yeah, but it leads to this sort of almost addictive behaviour. People say all they have is a dick to sugar and a dick to chod it on there. So that you know, from my perspective it's okay are we dealing with? you know, i'm a functional nutritionist, so I'm really interested in how the body is functioning. It's not just about the food, it's about what the body is doing when it gets the food, but also then making sure that the food again we're back to those raw ingredients. So a dopamine. There's two amino acids that we need to do as the raw ingredients. That are they in the diet and if not, let's get them in.

24:37

But when you're looking at appetite and when you're looking at being able to know your fault. I mean this is when the um, intraceptive awareness come into it as well that some people just don't really know if they're hungry or full. Now they don't get those sensations. But looking at the food that's on is eating is making sure we've got the right balance of food. So, for instance, your vegetables and protein are going to keep you full for longer, because protein and fiber stay in the stomach a lot longer than things like the refined carbohydrates, the sugars etc. Although a dopamine deficient brain is going to get such a bigger hit from that sugar. It's really quite difficult to work with that without some sort going in.

25:20

But always make sure there's adequate protein in every meal. That includes breakfast. There's a lot of children it's cereal for breakfast, maybe a piece of fruit being healthy for a snack. Then they go into lunch or pasta we'll have pasta there and then the evening meal. so where's the protein in that? or a sandwich for lunch where's the protein in that? so if the stomach is empty and obviously feelings of hunger are going to, you know, sort of be more, be more aware of them. So it's giving things actually slow down that emptying of the stomach, to keep that feeling of being full, because then working around that, along with making sure the right ingredients are in, we can actually help to sort of offer such a balance. It's balancing the blood glucose levels.

Bernie WrightHost26:02

It's really important yeah, and something about improving their interest into perception so that people actually have more internal awareness and you can do lots around you know, so people actually understand when they're full. To support them with that, in fact just actually pulled up this excellent book Interception How I Feel Inside Out, um, seeing my world and it's.

Dr Olivia KesselHost26:22

It's great for parents to support that, that internal awareness, so they will begin to understand more how they feel both emotionally and physiologically can you give us a couple of tips that parents could maybe use in terms of how they would, and I will put the book on on the website too, so people can find access to it. But how can you support your child if they don't feel? if you get the right building blocks, like you've talked about, lisa, then how can you support them from a kind of behavior change perspective or helping them with their understanding of those feelings slowly but surely?

Bernie WrightHost26:49

and it's something about. So if your child's got no sort of internal awareness about that, it's about their hunger cues. So, for example, an ADHD person like myself, um, has had to learn that, you know. So I would go all day, going back in the day and just not eat at all because I would get so hyper-act, focused on what I was doing, and then I would then in the, you know, when I finished work and went downstairs, i would then probably everything that wasn't tied down because I wasn't, you know, and and people who raised ADHD will be thinking about you know. Actually, you know when they should be eating their food. They're going shopping for their food. So it's something about you know.

27:25

As parents, we can support, you know, on the, on the, on the sort of, on the timing, you know, especially when they're younger, and to support them to understand more what's going on internally so they can check in with themselves more, with mindfulness and things like that. Um, so it's, it's, it's very, very useful for and and if I, for example, if I are on our xx child eats too slowly, um, then we, we will look at removing the anxiety or causing with the anxiety, with distraction, um, so you know. So some parents will say we're autistic children. You know, we, we all sit together, we eat at the table, which is great. But if your child is terrified of eating, you may have to put some distraction, you may have to put earmuffs on, or you may have to turn the television on. You may it's. It's all these different ways that we can support, um, but there is an excellent books out there and um, i'll I'll send you some more details. Deliver if you like.

Dr Olivia KesselHost28:18

That would be brilliant yeah, because I think you know we get, we have this, this thought in our head as parents, you know we're all gonna sit down and talk about things and have, you know, a lovely meal together, um, and for some children that's just not a potential. I had one mom actually on the show, the a couple weeks ago and she said, you know, i had to accept that my son wants to eat his dinner on the stairs or want, he doesn't want, to eat around other people and you know what, at the end of the day, as long as he's eating, that, all that is important, i I need to let go of what is not important, you know, um, and that's a great point, figuring figuring that out, yeah, and it's hard because we do have these fantasy of how our family meal time should look.

Bernie WrightHost28:54

I think it's also important to remember.

Lisa SmithHost28:56

We don't live in a perfect world, so why are we trying to have these perfect behaviors? you know the world isn't like that far from it, lisa, far from it it's all about and the whole guy.

Bernie WrightHost29:12

I parents exactly, and the whole, the whole idea of a perfect family is a total fantasy and illusion, isn't it?

Dr Olivia KesselHost29:18

so it's like don't, don't believe what you see yeah, exactly in terms of like, if I'm worried about my child and you know, i've, you know, seen some of the kind of signs that you've mentioned today, or you know my gut and I think mom's guts are the best thing to go by and they think, okay, i need some additional help here. I I'm, you know, in the dark a bit and you know they want to reach out. And how do they reach out to the right people? I know with, with your organization, you train healthcare professionals so that they know about neurodiversity and eating disorders, but how does, how does a parent find the right therapist um, that that has that experience if they have a neurodiverse child, or if they have a child that maybe hasn't been diagnosed as neurodiverse? so it's a tricky situation. Where does the parent go for?

Bernie WrightHost29:57

help very, very tricky and it's getting an awful lot better, um, but it's something about and I feel for neurodivergent parents anyway, there is it's so much harder to begin with, you know, because you have to fight so much harder for your child to be recognized for, for their, for their, their, their special needs or the needs that are going on for them, and it and it's and it's difficult, but it's something about believing in your guts and I love that you just said that, olivia, because I do believe that parents do know, and you know, to, to be able and to and it's difficult but to challenge the system.

30:33

You know to say that this is what I believe get a second opinion.

30:37

Yeah, you know, you know Jenny Langley, who I'll also give you the resources for her um. She works a lot with parents who are um, who got children, who are got eating issues and who are neurodivergent, and she does great courses and she's amazing um, and then she does a fantastic book that will also put on on the list for you um. That is valuable and I think that and I think and I've always find this very sad saying this to parents but if you do believe your child has gotten eating disorder or disordered eating, then it's something you will almost have to get at an A level in yourself. You need to educate yourself and and I feel very lowed every time I say that because I think parents who have got neurodivergent people, children, are also fighting hard enough anyway a lot of the time but we're also used to having to learn and that's like part of the reason this podcast is to empower parents, because with knowledge you can do so much more and interestingly a lot of parents are neurodivergent as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost31:29

So you know they, they might, you know, through their self-discovery with their children and through their knowledge that they get through their children, they actually might be helping themselves as well along along that journey. So, um, you know it's, it's very powerful and I think, um, it's it's knowing that there is help, and I think it's also knowing that and I think you've really really clarified for me today, and I hope other parents, is that you need to look at it differently. You need to look at it with the lens of both neurodiversity and the eating disorder or disordered eating, which I'm presuming. The differentiation between that two is it that one is a at the lesser stage, so an eating disorder is a classified disorder, whereas disordered eating is the maybe pre-step to that. Am I correct in that?

Bernie WrightHost32:08

yeah, um, i mean predominantly Olivia. So many of us have disordered eating. You know it's the western norm to be honest, um, but I say to people, if you know, if, if all you think about is food, weight and shape, that's all that lives in your mind, then you're looking at an eating disorder can I just jump in so?

Lisa SmithHost32:25

it's the question absolutely um, it's making me smile when you said about you know, about you know gut feeling and listen to your gut, because there's always a thing that you know anyone that says listen to your gut obviously doesn't have IBS.

32:37

But when you're looking at you, right they are eight times more likely to have gastrointestinal problems such as IBS. What I find as well is I'd less like to talk about them because if you've always had these symptoms they are the norm. So sometimes I will be talking to maybe you know, child 6, 7, 8 and I'll say, you know, do you get tummy aches? and they say yes, and the mum will suddenly quite surprised but it's all. the child's always had tummy aches and they've maybe mentioned once or twice, but then that's just the way it is. So it's ask your child, just talk to them. You know how'd she tell me. You know any headaches, just not every day, obviously, but just check in because if a child or a young person has always had those symptoms and there's an element of oral interception, then it's the norm. So there's a lot of statistics to show the issue with that sort of the gut mind link, especially with neurotransmitters and hormones. Because if we think you know, serotonin, for instance it is a brain chemical 95% has made in the gastrointestinal tract.

Bernie WrightHost33:40

Absolutely.

Lisa SmithHost33:41

It's that sort of an area of focus as well, but sometimes it needs a bit of probing to understand what is fine, because that's my standard answer I get when I start talking about that. fine, i don't want to go there. That's a tricky subject sometimes. But there's that. Define fine what you mean by fine and not accepting that sort of first answer.

Bernie WrightHost34:00

Yeah, yeah, and also we're in the in the eating disorder world. We just we know when we work with people, to begin with we're not going to ask them how they feel, you know, because they don't actually know and it could be a terrifying question. So if we're always asking our child, how do you feel about this? what's your feelings? how are you feeling today? is there out if they've got an important intersection of awareness? they may not know, so they need to learn it, to understand it, and we can, we can do an awful lot around that, so you know. So if we're always asking our child, how are you feeling they're going? I don't know, stop asking me that. It might be they might feel really threatened by it.

Dr Olivia KesselHost34:35

It's almost like you have to say things like how many times did you poo today or do you have pain in your stomach? so it's not really about feeling, it's actually about what is your physiological function, and then you can see that there's there's an issue there. I know, when I ask my daughter, how is school, how are you feeling good, i mean she might as well be saying nothing, you know.

Bernie WrightHost34:55

I always say what's your thoughts. You know what are you thinking about. That, what's your thoughts. And if they're less scared of feelings, they might you go out. Get a better answer from my experience not always, not always.

Lisa SmithHost35:07

The four letter F word, as I call it fine, which is just fine.

Dr Olivia KesselHost35:12

Exactly. Well, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show today and I would like to ask you, as my final question, what three top tips would you give to parents from the show, or from from your experience, that they could take away with them? I?

Lisa SmithHost35:26

think my oh, go on, bernie, you go. No, you go, you go. My first one is really consider the message that your own behaviours around food are sending to your child, because we don't want to get into a scenario if it was I saying not as I do.

Dr Olivia KesselHost35:41

I've definitely taken some messages from from what you've said today in terms of my behaviour going forward. And Bernie, another top tip from you.

Bernie WrightHost35:49

Don't panic and I think the because eating disorders are terrifying absolutely Please don't say to your children my goodness, look how thin. You're guessing you're so thin you don't look well. That to them, is an absolute thank you very much. I'm not quite thin enough. In the same way, if your child then starts regaining health and I say regaining health, please do not say you're all that's great, you're putting on weight, you're looking so much better. They will take it as you are looking fat, something about you know you can say your eyes are looking so much brighter. Look at the energy you've got. Things like that are very useful, but keep it away from weight and shame always.

Dr Olivia KesselHost36:30

Be really careful on your communication. That's come out loud and clear. What you say and how you say is super important. Lisa, do you have an?

Lisa SmithHost36:37

answer My mind would be remember, it's not about taking things out, it's about what can we put in and in fact, if you are looking at taking something out, it must be placed. So, for instance, if you have someone that's drinking a lot of diet coke, you can't just stop the diet coke and have a nice glass of water it's not gonna.

Dr Olivia KesselHost36:56

You know, a herb tea in water really on the diet.

Lisa SmithHost36:59

So it's finding something else that's. You know we might have to do it. It's slightly better than a diet coke. It's not quite there yet, but we'll work with it and they know there it is. Just whichever, then, from a sensory perception, somebody wants to have you know it might be that they're having a cordial with some sparkling water in or with that. Older children and adults kombucha is brilliant to expect.

37:20

I don't know why, don't ask me why, but I know good bacteria in. Maybe it's that link, um, but yeah, it's so. Don't just take things off, you know, especially if you're looking at somebody in a larger body, don't just say you can't have chocolate or sweets anymore. You know, get involved either of things that you can buy or make that are the lesser of two evils. So let's go with that and not try and project this perfect diet that we see in order to help the individual lose weight, because it's about health. Not, you know, number on a set of scales does not tell you how healthy or well you are. The end of date when you're at the higher end, you know it. We were all different shapes, we're all different sizes. Obviously, the lower end, yes, it can kind of big influence, but it's not just about becoming a size or juicing down it's.

38:04

You can see plenty of um, you know, sort of young adolescents who might be a little bit on the the podgy side. It doesn't mean they need to lose weight. You know, there's that automatic. Oh, they've got to lose weight. Well, no, let's just change the diet, let's just change the lifestyle. Let's gain them health, not losing weight. Yeah, that's so true yeah, gaining health.

Bernie WrightHost38:22

Gaining health and living a really healthful life. Without that, you know obsession. I mean she wouldn't pick up very quickly if the monitor comes home and says we're all eating healthily, and you know, and starts with obsessing about taking away all the sweets that they were eating in abundance only the day before. They take it very much if you off that and then and then you can create a monster which eating disorders are.

Dr Olivia KesselHost38:42

Yeah it's a um, it's a mine field, but actually, if you listen to the things that you've said, it actually isn't that hard to make those switches and, to you know, to change the way. And it's. It's probably something that all I know my generation, my mother's generation, you know it's, it's embedded in us and we need to stop that. We need to stop at how we're looking at ourselves and the dieting and the scales and all of that, and I think it's in a lot of women's mentality, so we can use our children and our motivation with our children to help them have better life, um, relationships with food, and help ourselves, because you'll do anything, they'll do anything for your child.

Bernie WrightHost39:15

So it's, uh, it's a great way to learn and to reframe our own minds and that's, and finally, you know that's, that's very, very true, and it's something about congratulating our children on who they are yeah, not how they look.

39:27

Yeah, absolutely you know so many parents would say oh, what are? my beautiful princess, my beautiful little prince? it's what it gives this sort of whole thing about. You know, um, you are important because of your looks and I know that my mother had for her. That was really important. Um, and it's something about our children are there to be, not to do, but us.

Dr Olivia KesselHost39:46

Yeah, and actually when someone looks really beautiful and they have a horrid personality, their, their beauty kind of drips away in your eyes, and when you know, say it's it's. Yeah, your personality is is worse, so much more well. Thank you both for being on, thank you on the podcast today and I will, uh, have all of the resources that you've mentioned available to everyone and, and just yeah, a big thanks thank you very much and it's been a pleasure.

Bernie WrightHost40:09

And good luck all of you out there. It's not as hard as we think sometimes. Sometimes great words to end bye.

Dr Olivia KesselHost40:18

Thank you for listening send parenting tribe. If you've enjoyed this podcast, i have a big favor to ask could you please leave a review or rating on apple podcast or Spotify, as this will enable more people to find the podcast based on their algorithm. Please also visit our website for access to a pdf with the book recommendations. In this show we'll have recommendations on interoception, which, for those of you who might not remember, is that inability for your child to feel whether they're hungry or full, and also a book on how to care for someone with an eating disorder. I'll also be sending out this information to all of you who signed up to our website mailing list. If you haven't done so already, i encourage you to go to wwwsendparentingcom, wishing you and your family a healthy week ahead.