EP 109: Supporting teen mental health with Alicia Drummond, Wellbeing Hub for Teens

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Dr Olivia KesselHost

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• Alicia DrummondEdit

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00:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we start with the episode, I'd like to invite you to become a member of our Send Parenting what's Up? Community. It's a private space designed just for us. Parenting neurodiverse children can come with its own set of challenges, but it's also full of incredible moments of joy and growth. So I wanted to create a space where we can come together as neurodiverse parents to connect, share experiences and offer support to one another with no judgment and a lived in understanding. If you're a neuro navigator like me and have felt alone on this journey, then this is the community for you. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. The link can be found in the show notes or you can direct message me on 078-569-15105, and I can personally add you in, looking forward to hearing from you in the community.

01:40

In today's episode, we're going to focus on young people otherwise known as teenagers, and their mental well-being and health. We're going to be joined by Alicia Drummond, founder of the Wellbeing Hub, which offers a proactive approach to children and young people's mental health and well-being by providing evidence-based support for parents, carers and actually the whole school and community. The reality is, the statistics are quite terrifying. In the UK, in 2023 to 2024, there were 204,526 referrals of children made to mental health services with a primary cause of anxiety. If we look at the data a few years back, 2016 to 17, there were only 3,879 referrals. Now this is also partially due to more people are reporting, but still that's a staggering increase in number of referrals.

02:40

Neurodivergent children and teens are particularly vulnerable. Living in a neurotypical world, they're at greater risk of mental health issues such as anxiety and depression. So today, with Alicia, we are going to explore anxiety and how that relates to school panic attacks, and also how we can support our children's emotional resilience. Moving forward, alicia has a ton of information, a ton of science and it's a super interesting episode. So grab a cup of coffee or put on your earbuds and go for a walk and join us for this really important discussion. So welcome, alicia.

03:23

What a pleasure it is to have you on the Send Parenting podcast today to really talk about a topic that's super important our children and our young teens' mental health and well-being and it's really sad because the statistics are frightening in terms of how much jeopardy our children and teens are right now in terms of their mental health and well-being. And I was just talking to a friend the other day and you know her and her husband are talking about different schools for their children and you know, fundamentally, at the core of what they need to discuss is what's the best for our child's mental well-health and being not necessarily what's academically best for them. And I think it's it's become such a focus topic because there are so many kids that are suffering from this. So I'm super happy to have your expertise and your knowledge here today. So could you kick us off by just telling us a little bit about your background and what inspired you to form the Wellbeing Hub?

Alicia DrummondHost

04:15

Yes, of course. Well, first of all, it's really lovely to be with you. Thank you for inviting me. It's always an honor to be invited to be on somebody's podcast me, um, it's always an honor to be invited to be on somebody's podcast, um.

04:29

So I I uh, probably quite late on in life, had a big change in career and ended up as a, as a therapist, and I ended up working with particularly teenagers in therapy and kind of thought, gosh, you know, if you could tweak the environments around these kids, a lot of them wouldn't end up in therapy. And you know and often it is tweaks, it's not, you know, massive changes that need to be made. But in order to make change, you have to have awareness. And at the time my kids were in a school and they said, oh, alicia, you do that listening thing. And I was like, well, that's five years training, but yes, do that listening thing. And I was like, well, that's five years training, but yes, that listening, can you come and um and talk to our students? So I started off doing that, teaching them kind of listening skills, and then, as I say, I kind of had this awareness.

05:18

So I did a lot of training in parenting and then over the last, what was it? 2009? So, however many years, that is 15, 16 years. It's kind of developed. So it's a lot of staff training, because we have to view um, we have to view this holistically and that means that we need to have some focus on staff, some focus on parents and some focus on pupils. And by 2018, I was working 180 something schools. My car was like a mobile cafe bin and I just thought we need to do this differently. And then, of course, the lockdown. First lockdown happened and I was like, right, okay, well, I've always wanted to create a little platform where parents could come and find expert-led, trustworthy information. So we created the hub for parents and then that seemed to be going right. But, as I say, I really believe in that all-around the child approach. So then we made the pet staff one, then we made one for pupils and we now have pupils age 10 plus 13, plus 16, plus staff and parents and you describe a little bit what's in that.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

06:26

What does it mean? The hub, you know?

Alicia DrummondHost

06:27

for those of us who don't know, For those of us who don't know absolutely so, the idea is that we have in each level. So for staff, for example, there's a staff course which allows them, helps them to create environments that meet the social and emotional needs of young people. There are PSHE lesson plans. There are, I mean, there's over two and a bit thousand resources, so anything that they're looking for, from emotionally based school absenteeism through to, you know, the latest research around dopamine or ketamine or whatever it is they will find it there.

07:09

There are, and those resources could be podcasts, they could be blogs, they could be q and a's, um, there are resources around careers. So we have a really lovely um section called um your future inspiring futures, and it's lots and lots of little podcasts, people telling us about what they do, because we want kids to be looking up and looking out and feeling hopeful about the future, because that's really, really important. And then it's got support sections and, as I say, there's over two and a bit thousand resources. There's plenty. And then we have the same for parents, but it'll be parenting courses and they can join live Q and A's, they can put one-to-ones.

07:52

And then we have one for the pupils which is really giving them information so that they can kind of be more proactive about managing their own wellbeing. So there's an A to Z of wellbeing. All the things that we know boost all of those happy hormones like oxytocin and serotonin and dopamine. So, yeah, that's that's kind of what it is, and it grows every month because every week, every month, we have a different theme and every week there'll be a new resource based around that theme. And every month we also run a webinar, which predominantly for parents and staff, but sometimes we'll do something that includes the young ones as well.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

08:30

Excellent and it's an amazing resource, and I like the way that you do that holistic approach, because really to support a teenager, you need to get all the adults on board as well and you need to help them in their knowledge base as well to be able to support the teenagers. So it's uh, it's great to have that, that wraparound care, because then you actually can impact. Do you do you do measure? Do you measure how the impact is in terms of when you go into schools?

Alicia DrummondHost

08:56

Yeah, so we uh, don't really. You know the the platform goes into schools, um, and so a school, I mean mean individual parents can access it, but on the whole, schools buy it and that gives everybody access. And then we do a lot on impact, results and engagement. Um, because you know it's like anything if you don't know if it works, what's, why would you keep going? So it does matter, it does matter yeah, no, absolutely.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

09:23

I agree because, um, you know, a lot of things are done in good, you think it's good, but until you can actually prove that it's good and that it's having that impact. So what kind of impacts do you measure?

Alicia DrummondHost

09:35

Well, we're very much looking around for starters on terms of the engagement It'll be. You know who's looking at what.

09:43

So we don't track individuals around the platform, because I think that puts people off actually using it yeah, that makes sense you know, we can say it, ring up a school and say, look, you know, a lot of your year 11s are looking at this particular resource and that helps them then to be able to know what they might need to be discussing in their, in their personal social health education. Yeah, and what is it? And it's a kind of bi-directional thing as well, because sometimes they'll ring us up and say, you know, uh, we've heard a lot of this going on. Can you put some resources? So we had last term, for example, a lot of the young ones looking for resources around coercive control in relationships, which is really sad, I don't think looking for resources around coercive control in relationships, which is really sad. I don't think I even knew what coercive control was age 15. So there you go no, I certainly didn't?

10:32

yeah, a bit of a sea change, um, and so then we can create resources that meet their needs as well. So it we very much work in partnership with the schools and then in terms of impact, particularly with the courses there's, you know we have. So we have courses for mental health, courses for the young ones as well, which is delivered in a school setting, but all the way through it's asking and it's checking that what they're learning is helping them in their day-to-day lives. With the staff training course. That's one's various rewards and we have a, you know, before and after and 100% of people who've done it have said that it's improved their confidence, which is in being able to meet the needs of young people. So we're pretty keen on monitoring outcome and then you know that informs also what we're going keen on monitoring outcome.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

11:31

And then you know that informs also what we're going to put in next or what people need more of, or you know we tweak stuff. That's brilliant, because oftentimes when you have like a digital solution, it doesn't have that personal touch, so it's kind of you know out there. So it's really nice how you've combined, like the digital element but also having that communication open with schools and understanding what's needed and then, you know, helping signpost them as well. So that's, that's a. It's a great symbiotic relationship between personal intervention, digital and all working on the same page together. That's fantastic Now, as we have you here today and I've looked at your site and you have written a lot of great articles and so I thought it would be a great opportunity for me to pick your brain for our listeners, because some of the things that you write about are I also run a Send Parenting Community what's Up group with over a hundred parents who you know, discuss and help each other out and empower each other.

12:19

And one of the things that you wrote about was, you know, anxiety and returning to school and anxiety, and I know we've just returned back to school from the Christmas holidays and it's a real challenging time for parents and for children as well, and I was wondering if you could go over you know any of those tips and maybe if you could use it a little bit with a lens of neurodiversity, if that's possible too, because obviously most of my listeners are either neurodiverse themselves or have children that are neurodiverse yeah, absolutely, and you know and we know, there's a high, high kind of the comorbidity thing between neuro, being neurodiverse, and anxiety.

Alicia DrummondHost

12:56

I mean, why wouldn't it be? If you're living in a world that doesn't really seem to get you, um, I imagine it must be really triggering a lot of the time. So I'm 100% happy to talk about anxiety. I think the most important thing from a parent's perspective perhaps to start off with, is recognising anxiety for what it is, because often it manifests either in behaviour and that might be really angry, aggressive behaviour or it might manifest in physical symptoms and I think often we find, you know, you'll have had those experiences where you take a child to the doctor because they've constantly got tummy ache or headache and all the rest of it, and we don't, I think. I think it's getting better, but I don't think the medical profession are particularly good at the holistic. Actually, maybe this child is holding their anxiety in their stomach and that's where, that's why they're constantly having pains, because there's no obvious medical reason for it. So I do think, just actually being able to, perhaps the most important thing is that curiosity.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

14:01

To think outside the box and to identify it. Yeah, for what it is, you know, not like, oh, they're just being difficult or they're really kicking off. You know that there's actually something underlying it.

Alicia DrummondHost

14:11

Yeah, and I don't think that it's any different for those with, you know, kind of neurodiverse who are in that our behavior is very much a manifestation of our emotions. So if somebody is not behaving okay, then chances are they're not feeling okay either. And of course, you know, I think, um. So, in terms of going back to school, you know, for for for most of us, actually change is difficult because our brains like things to be nice and predictable and to know exactly what happens next and how it's all going to be laid out and what my day is going to be, because it helps us to feel more in control, it helps us to feel more relaxed, and then you kind of it doesn't matter whether it's the beginning of a new school and a new school or just the beginning of a new school year, or even just the middle of a year.

15:10

There's always that element of what if or how? Might it be different this term, and can I cope with that? So I think it's first of all to be able to normalise for them that it's normal to feel anxious. Okay, this person is connected to me, they're really trying to understand what it's like to be me and actually, oh, okay, well, if I'm allowed to feel that, because that's acceptable, it generally lessens the intensity of the emotion. Then we go into curiosity, and I think curiosity is really about kind of trying to dig into, if you can, what is it that you find particularly difficult, and the more specific they can be, and that's again using our empathy. So what I'm hearing is that the bit of the day that you find really difficult is moving from one lesson to the next, and you know they're teenagers or whatever. They'll tell you if you get it wrong.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

16:37

usually you don't understand me yeah, you don't understand me.

Alicia DrummondHost

16:46

God, you know what. I've really missed this one. Okay, let's go back a bit. Can you help me to fight to understand this? So I'm trying really hard. I'm not going to get it right and it doesn't matter if you don't get it right. It's the trying that matters. But if it was right supposing I was right and that it is the moving from one lesson to the next that I find really, really difficult, ok, let's kind of dig into that a little bit further. Is it the noise? Because often, if you think about schools, you know, and you're kind of going down corridors, they're busy, they're bustly, everybody's trying to go in different directions, everybody's got five minutes to move from one lesson to the next. So I'm kind of, you know, everybody's focused on getting to where they need to be and that can be very jostling, it can be very noisy. It's also often where a lot of the kind of nasty teasing and bullying happens. So, again, let's really kind of think about what it is that's particularly triggering for you, um, and and that will be different, you know, for different people um, then it's kind of identifying.

18:00

We, we kind of want to use that collaborative approach of sort of what? Okay, what could we do? What works here? So I believe in going things from a strengths-based approach. You know, what have you used, what have we done in different settings? That might help you to manage this better. And it could be putting on a set of headphones before you come out into the hall, because that reduces the amount of noise. It could be, you know, so we can do some kind of macro stuff at home that can be translated into micro stuff at school.

18:41

So, for example, if you're thinking about that, that collaborative approach, talking to their teachers and saying you know, is it okay if they put a pair of headphones on? Would it be all right if they had a card which allowed them to be the last one to leave a classroom, because then it'll have settled a little bit, even if it means they're going to be two minutes later. You know there are, there are lots of things that we can do that that would be helpful. That don't necessarily cause the staff an awful lot of stress, which they probably don't need either. So we're encouraging that kind of problem solving and engagement from our young people, because they are their own best expert, yeah, and it's small.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

19:24

It's as you say it's a small solution, but can make a big difference.

Alicia DrummondHost

19:27

Yeah, really huge. So, funnily enough, I just did a podcast this week and it's an amazing researcher from Bath University and she's written a book which is called Wellbeing to Welldoing and I think it would be really helpful for lots of your listeners and it's predominantly aimed at teaching staff and it's kind of like what are the things that you can do that actually don't give you any more work but could have a really big impact, not just for those send kids but for everybody. So, for one of the examples that she gave was you know, if at home you know that your child is much calmer when they're wrapped in a weighted blanket or they've got a weighted blanket over their legs, obviously they can't necessarily have a weighted blanket in a, you know, mainstream school setting, but could they just put their bag on their lap and get that sense of weight? No-transcript particular situation? I think it's about being really practical on some things, so like I say, the headphones or the weighted, putting your bag on your lap or and um, and then breaking it down into manageable chunks. So I've worked with them where they've school refusing and it's gone on for a while and you know when we?

21:14

The way that we overcome anxiety is that we overcome the challenge.

21:20

We don't reduce anxiety by not backing up, by backing away from the challenge, but we need to do it in a way that is pushing them to the outer edge of their comfort zone without sending them totally spinning out of it as well.

21:38

So I'm just thinking of one in particular, and she had various, and I spent a week, every single morning. The first morning we were just sitting in the car in the car park having a chat, and, on a scale of one to ten, how anxious are you feeling? Oh, I'm five, oh, okay. And by the end of the week, you know, we gradually got out of the car and every time she got over a five, the rating was over a five. We just stop wherever we were and allow her to feel that sense of the anxiety coming down because it always does, because that's the way we're kind of wired to be and then we'd sit with that, just that discomfort, without it feeling overwhelming, and gradually, gradually, taking it in at their pace. But we go gradually, gradually, further forward. What we don't want to do is to try and help them to avoid situations that they find anxiety inducing, because that's not how we learn to manage anxiety.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

22:44

Yeah, I imagine it's quite a hard balance because it's also finding out in the school well, you know what's, what's the root cause of that anxiety? Because you know if you know x, y or z. But getting to the root cause of the problem, um, and then diffusing the anxiety kind of on on both sides yeah, and I think there's lots that we can do at home.

Alicia DrummondHost

23:18

That then is then transferable into the school setting. You know. So, for example, if um sort of social anxiety is high up on the list of things which you know, it very often is for all teenagers because of that, yeah, social, so the brain is ready to be connected socially to people outside of our family, but actually then we're putting ourselves out there to be judged or all the rest of it which is going to push our buttons. But if social anxiety is okay, well let's practice outside of school and then then we've got evidence that we can bring in of how we coped. So we've done those kind of almost rehearsals and role plays and walkthroughs and talk throughs and and we can bring that those skills into the different environments and different settings.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:12

Yeah, and and and it, it. It makes it less scary. If you've practiced it and you've you've role played it before um more manageable. And then also, I think, breaking it down into manageable chunks and what, what steps are you going to do and how are you going to slowly ease your way into it as well?

Alicia DrummondHost

24:27

Yeah, definitely, and actually just giving them some tools. So, for example, you know, and this is with both, with all types of kids that are socially anxious, let's have a list of 20 to 30 conversation starters, because, but don't you give them to them? We work with them for them to come up with their own, because what I might say or what you might say, olivia, I hate to tell you is not going to be necessarily no, I'm not cool.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

24:55

I've been told I'm not cool. I'm so not cool.

Alicia DrummondHost

24:57

They don't even use the word cool no, I know the word cool means we're definitely definitely not. So getting it again from their perspective? How? Or with younger ones? One of the best things I think you can do is go to a playground and sit on the edge with them and just get them to start watching. Oh, you know, I saw that that little girl. Let that little boy up on the slide and start to play with her. What did you notice? What did we see her doing? What did we see him doing? That meant that they could then play together, and actually what we know from research is that, in terms of making friends, the most important aspect is being open to making friends. So looking as if you want to be friends with somebody, you know, just kind of approaching them with a smile on your face, is a really big start, but we don't explicitly talk about that stuff.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

25:55

Yeah, and I think you know, with neurodiverse children too and I've seen this with my own daughter she might be struggling socially at school, but maybe outside of school, in like a realm of Minecraft of someone, she can start to play with them, you know, with them on the phone and they can play, and then that starts to translate into school where it's like, oh well, what do you want to play this afternoon? Oh, now the communication has started and then you know it can develop from there. So it's finding the way that your child is comfortable to interact and then building on it. And then, you know, building on it outside of school and then seeing how it builds inside of school too.

Alicia DrummondHost

26:31

Yeah, and that's what I mean about coming from a strengths-based approach rather than a deficit. You know, if you've got a problem, no, we just haven't found the way that you can manage this yet. And that word yet is so important, isn't it? Because it suggests that there will be an answer. We just need to keep going until we find out what it is.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

27:07

I crossed the street, I hit signs actually, that I didn't see because my head was so looking on the floor. It was. You know, you'd never guess it now, would you? I'm running a podcast, but that's what you know. That's what my grandmother told me to do. She's like Olivia, you need to look. You know, first it was just looking someone in the eye and then it was, you know, saying hi. And then you know, now look at me. You know it's a. You know it can't shut me up talking to people on the street that I don't know at all.

27:28

So it is taking those baby steps and breaking it down into manageable chunks, which also works really well for the neurodiverse mind as well. It's not overwhelming, and for neurotypical minds it's breaking it down into chunks that kids can manage. Why do you think mental health is such an issue? Now, I know there's no answer to this question, but I just would love to hear your opinions. You know, why are so many more kids suffering from anxiety, from depression, from panic attacks, from? You know, a whole host of kind of mental health issues?

Alicia DrummondHost

28:01

You're right, it's a really complicated answer and it's not any one thing and you know so. So, and I think that's really important to to state as well, because I think, particularly as a parent, you know if your child's struggling, it's so easy to beat yourself up about it, but it's way more complicated than that and and our mental health is based on, you know, the kind of interaction of our social, biological, our environment, our coping strategies. You know all of those things kind of get poured into the mix. Our genetics really important. You know there's a very high genetic component to things like eating disorders, for example, and also to addiction. So there's loads and loads of different stuff.

28:47

Why do I think it's got worse? I think, well, I mean, you know you can't avoid the whole COVID thing, but actually we're seeing them, most of them bouncing back now, and I think this goes back way further than that. I think it's partly about um, it's partly about the pressure that a lot of young people feel under, and I'm not just talking about academic pressure, I'm talking about, you know, when you're really, really young, that kind of pressure to get your to have the perfect social media profile, uh, that pressure that comes from social comparison on things like social media, um, but also, I think, a lot of parents perhaps. The world is changing very fast and we're looking at it and thinking if they don't get that result, they won't get into this, and if they don't get into this, they won't get to there. And if they don't get to there, they won't get a job. And if they don't get a job, then and we are Catastrophizing yeah.

29:49

It's really important, really unhelpful, so that the single most important thing we can do as parents is to be that really calm, positive base that says, yeah, stuff's changing. But you know, with every job we lose, we create. So we just have to be, and perhaps be less focused on on academic results and more focused around what the skills and I think that's where a lot of the neurodiverse community you know they're going to fly because they're very good often at that hyper focus in different areas or the creativity of things, like you know, dyslexia, incredibly creative brains. You know there's going to be a huge amount of space in the workplace for people who think differently.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

30:32

You know it's also it's a gift. As a parent, you know I would never. You know my daughter's had a lot of challenges and we've, you know, struggled with education, stuff like that. But because I've had to come to the core of you know she, you know she might not go, she probably is not going to go to university, who knows? You know, I can't, I can't predict, but you know what it took a huge boulder off my shoulder because I have been a child who's been pressurized as a dyslexic. You have to do well, you have to you, otherwise you're going to be failing.

30:56

Well, when that's taken away and you're like, you know what, I just want her to be able to be happy with it, takes off that pressure. And then it's like well, actually there's so many different things that you can do in this world and so many novel jobs that are coming up that you and me, at our age, we can barely think about, although you know I never thought I'd be running a podcast either, but you know it's. You know who knew as a doctor, that that's, that's an avenue you could go down. But you know, I think, taking that pressure off and it's so hard for parents to do I feel gifted because, because I was faced with a challenge of I don't know where she can go in education, I had to take that foot off the accelerator and for so many parents, it's, it's. You know it might be one parent and not the other parent, but it's, and that and that transmits itself. Kids pick. Kids are like little you know, sensors.

Alicia DrummondHost

31:45

They they, they kids are like little you know sensors. They pick up on that, yeah, and I think that anxiety you know, I always say anxiety is like I've got this ball and I'm holding it and I throw it and then you catch it and we pass it around. So, yes, absolutely, in terms of what else do I think has impacted. So I think that pressure to perform in lots of different ways. I think social media has undoubtedly played its part sometimes, yeah, sometimes in good ways, sometimes in bad ways. Um, I think also the exposure. I think the biggest threat to our kids is the ever-growing design divide between what we think they know and are doing and what they are actually knowing and doing online.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

32:31

That's a good one, that is, you know, that is a really good one, and how to bridge that gap.

Alicia DrummondHost

32:38

Yeah, and that you know. That's again it's about conversation, because actually, you know, I mean I've worked with kids who've been really traumatized by watching content that you know there's something out this morning around this new kind of group of men who are getting kids to do horrific things online. So we need to be really connected with them in their online world as well as their offline world, and they don't make any distinction between the two. So I think we have to stop making the distinction between the two. So I think we have to stop making the distinction between the two, because the two are really, really merged.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

33:13

And it's not just about time limits is something that I've unfortunately had to uncover myself, and I've actually just now, in the last couple of months, got something called NannyNet, which is a software thing that you can put on all of your kids' devices and it stops a degree of harm, you know, sexual content, self-harm, bullying but it also gives you a list of everything they're watching on YouTube and stuff like that. So and I found it super useful because I can look through it and then I can have conversations with my daughter about it. Some of the stuff is, you know, you know, it gives me an insight into her mind and it helps me to understand. Then we can talk about stuff, whereas before it was more of prevent her from going on it and also monitor the time of it. I think it's yeah, you can't be there all the time. That's why using something for me like NannyNet helps to prevent her from seeing stuff that could be really harmful to her.

Alicia DrummondHost

34:09

Yeah, it's really important, you know, and I think we are hoping we start to move a little bit more into the platforms, being a bit more responsible. But on the basic they've just said they're not doing fact checking anymore I'm not entirely confident, but yeah, so I think that having those conversations is really it really matters Because, apart from anything else, it says, I love you enough to want to try.

34:36

Yeah no-transcript of elastic. Your job is to take the elastic and it's to pull away, and hopefully you're going to get to 18 and we'll all go. Oh yeah, you're ready, give it. You know, cut the elastic, go and have a fantastic life. My job is to set you up to be able to have the elastic, but it's also to keep you safe.

35:26

And if I don't think that you're being able to keep yourself safe, I reserve the right to tweak the elastic. And the great thing about that conversation is that it it allows you know, usually it when it's not fair or you, you can't do that. Well, actually, yes, I can, I'm, and I'm doing it because you've already proven yourself untrustworthy. So let's not have that discussion. And the more you can work with me, the more elastic you're going to get. So it's in your interest to have these conversations. It's in your interest, you know, like Facebook did that thing where they stopped all their employees being able to have privacy settings. If you're not doing anything that you shouldn't be doing, then you wouldn't have a problem with me looking at what you're up to.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

Yeah, yeah, it's so true, it's so true and it's kind of learning that, and then you know. But what was really sweet is I overheard her on the phone and her friend was complaining about her mom looking at her phone and out of Alexandra's mouth I heard well, you know, it's just because your mom wants to make sure you're safe. And she was like she'd taken on board what I said and was sharing it with her friend and I was like, yes, you know, yeah, one to mom.

36:37

Yeah, so it is multifactorial and it is how we navigate it and it is confusing for us parents because we're you know I wasn't in this social media for me. I have lots of addictions, like chocolate and, you know, netflix can, you know, get me going for hours, but social media isn't one of my things. So I think we need to kind of teach ourselves and learn and to kind of understand their world as well, to be able to reach out to them.

Alicia DrummondHost

37:05

So there's something in there around. You know, I had a really interesting conversation with somebody called Dr Elizabeth Milovadov and she's a social media expert, and she made a really good point. So actually, if you're very involved with your children's social media from the get-go, you can actually help them to have really healthy algorithms that are not going to be feeding them up a junk load of really nasty content. So understanding how algorithms work is important, I think. The other thing that we need to probably be more aware of and there was a podcast with Stephen Bartlett, the diary of a CEO the other day, but it's a book- that I read.

37:44

Yeah, he's great. There's a book I read a while ago and it's called Dopamine Nation. So it's somebody called Dr Anna Lembke and she's based out I think she's at Stanford, one of those, anyway, and she's probably the world's leading expert on dopamine. And so and this is particularly relevant for young people with ADHD, because ADHD dopamine, you know, they're kind of looking for that dopamine hit. But actually, if you think about how dopamine has always worked, we used to have to put in really quite a lot of effort to get a little shot of dopamine, whereas so much of what we do, and particularly what our kids are doing, and particularly online, is remarkably little effort, almost no effort for instant gratification and a dopamine hit. And what's been a big finding in the world of neuroscience is the link between the fact that our pleasure and pain sit in the same area of the brain, and she describes it really beautifully, this idea that it's like a set of scales and every time we get a nice little hit so we get a little we get, you know, 10 more likes on our post than we got yesterday the pleasure part of the scale goes down, but then the body and the brain want to bring us back into that state of homeostasis. So balance. So then it presses on the pain one. But the pain one always goes a little bit further down than the pleasure one and for most of us, in most areas, we just go all right, okay, that's fine, and we move on.

39:20

But we all, most you know, particularly if we've got those genes around addiction, there are people who have vulnerabilities around around the system. So, uh, you know, I, for example. So I've got my likes, oh, I forgot, it's gone down a bit. So I need more. So we get more and it comes back up and the scales are going like this and we sort of get, you know, we become habitualized to X and then we need a bit more. And this is particularly true of things like pornography. You're constantly needing something a little bit more graphic, a little bit more extreme to get the same hit. And you can see it in drugs, you can see it in and um, but we all have our own personal one. So you know, you might be able to drink I don't know a bottle of whiskey and not not want it again for months and months, and months, and I might be there thinking, oh, I'm going on that down and I don't like the feeling of going down, so I need it to come back up again, and that, and that's how we start to, and then, of course, there's a whole load of connections that go on between there and our prefrontal cortex, which is the brakes, and and suddenly it's all kind of spinning out of control. We end up in those addictive cycles.

40:33

But I think one of the things that we have to be mindful of is that a lot of kids are struggling with motivation, and dopamine is our motivation. It's the motivation neurotransmitter, and if we a lot of the stuff we're doing is ending up with kids with a deficit of dopamine. And if you have a deficit of dopamine, you know why bother, why do this, why do that? So if you've got, for example, if you're working with a young person with ADHD yeah, who's also got a problem with drugs, you have to. The ADHD bit is the bit you address first, because the drive to look for dopamine is there anyway, so they're just choosing the wrong thing to get it from.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

41:22

So I think you know there's and they find that a lot with eating disorders as well. You know, like actually getting under. It's not just about the eating disorder, it's not just about the drug addiction. You've got to get under what the actual root cause is.

Alicia DrummondHost

41:35

Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's why I'm talking about this holistic approach to pretty much everything. We've got to be curious, We've got to look at more than just what is presenting. And you know, and you will know, most GPs don't have time to do that, but I think we can do a lot of it as parents.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

41:53

Yeah, knowledge is power. That's part of the reason why you know you do what you do and when I do what I do on my podcast too is bringing this knowledge, because you know you're not given a handbook with your child or how to live in this world really. So the more we can learn from others and the more we can share those experiences, the more equipped we are. Now I know we've been talking for a bit, but before we wrap up, I would like to just slightly touch upon emotional resilience, because you also talk about that, and I think it's kind of a positive way to wrap this up, because how can we build that emotional resilience in our children before it becomes, you know, a mental health condition? Any tips or strategies that you can give to parents?

Alicia DrummondHost

42:36

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the big things is making them feel confident in their competence. So, you know, making them do chores, know how to change a bed, know how to all of those little things that we kind of. Oh, I don't want them to do that because they're really busy at school, or I don't want them to do that because I can't face the battle, or I don't want them to do that because I won't do it to my standards, so I don't want them to do that because I won't do it. I won't do it to my standard, so it won't. I don't want it, you know, but we have disabled children by not expecting very much of them, and I think that's it's across multiple levels of functioning.

43:14

So, whether it's the purely practical stuff, like that, but also, uh, you know, in terms of not expecting them to come up with ideas, not giving them a sense of power and control so that they can make decisions for themselves, it's not rescuing them from a certain amount of I don't want to use the word hardship, but struggle.

43:38

I think we've stopped wanting to see our kids struggle and of course, we don't want them to be struggling way out of their zone of comfort, but we do need to see a little bit of struggle, because it's when we overcome challenges and we overcome difficulties that we develop that sense of self-efficacy, self-, self-confidence, self-awareness. So those would be my. As I say, you don't want to push them way out of the comfort zone, but let them. Don't rescue them from a little bit of struggle, or or stop expecting them either to come up with ideas, solutions or just to be involved in a conversation, and don't rescue them from being able to be confident in their competence they need. You know life is about. It's not about being happy all the time. It's about learning to kind of ride the wave, whatever it is.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

44:38

And so learning how to, how to bounce, and, and I mean, you know you learn the most when it is a hard situation and when things aren't going well. You know, you, you, you don't learn a lot when you're happy. Actually, you usually learn stuff when stuff is hard and it is. It is challenging, I think, for parents to let the let them, let them watch them, fail, um, and but it's, it's, it's important and it you know the sense of self-worth when they do, um, start to do stuff.

45:06

And you know my daughter's just now wanting to start to cook dinner, which is for me, it's, it's, um, I have to almost take a Valium before we, you know, before she starts in the kitchen, you know I'm just involved. You know, thinking about third degree burns, chopped off fingers. You know it's, it's, it's. It's really scary for me to step back and let her do it, but the pride when she's, you know, made something is just incredible, you know, and you know there. You know, so far we haven't had a trip to the emergency room, but it might happen and that's okay.

Alicia DrummondHost

45:36

You know, you cut yourself once with a knife, you learn. And we're perhaps particularly protective when we know our kids have struggles anyway. One of my daughters is is really dyslexic and you know you don't want, but actually she is quite weird. She ended up being an outdoor instructor and, um, she'd have all these kids coming and they would be really anxious about having a go at something and you know, oh well, I'm not going to be as good as you, or I'm not being as good as them, or they'll be better than me, or I might fail. So we had these little t-shirts printed that she wore and it said every expert was once a beginner and she used to wear it when she was teaching. And I kind of think, yeah, we don't make our kids confident by not letting them have a go.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

46:14

Yeah, yeah, exactly, and you know you have to kind of swallow that that it might not be great. I've asked my daughter on holiday to take the laundry off the rack and fold it and it was her interpretation of folding. But she got it off the rack and she did it and she put most of it away. And you know what Great it doesn't have to be perfect, and that's another thing. You know, even if you go back and do it yourself afterwards when they're not watching, you know it's just that they've tried it.

Alicia DrummondHost

46:47

Yeah, perfectionism is not helpful.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

46:51

Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much, alicia. I appreciate all your words of wisdom today. Now I think I forewarned you about if there's three top tips you could give to parents to just put in their podcast pocket and take away with them in terms of mental well-being and health for their children and teenagers. Could you share with us your three top tips of wisdom?

Alicia DrummondHost

47:14

So I think my three top tips would be first and foremost, they need to see you being positive about the future and calm in the present, because you model for them and you teach them how to regulate their emotions.

47:31

So those are really, really important. Top tip would be make them competent, uh, in as many different ways as you possibly can. And my third top tip was don't be naive about what there is out there that they could be accessing. So, in terms of just be alongside and keep that communication open and without any form of blame or shame, because when we blame and shame, we shut down conversation, when actually we really want them to be able to come to us and say, oh my gosh, I saw this and it's made me feel this. And so we put into the Wellbeing Hub. One of the things we've just put in is how to have your weekly phone chat and, I think, keeping the lines of communication open. One of the things we've just put in is how to have a, how to have your weekly phone chat, and, and I think keeping the lines of communication open and and to do that with curiosity, builds empathy, builds relationships, but blaming and shaming just shuts them down.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

48:38

I think those are three very, very, very good tips. Thank you very much, Alicia, for joining us today.

Alicia DrummondHost

48:45

Oh, it's my absolute pleasure I hope a few people find something useful, but thank you so much for inviting me.

Dr Olivia KesselHost

48:51

You're very welcome and I will have the links to the Wellbeing Hub on the show notes so people can access it as well. It's a fantastic resource and thank you for your time today. My pleasure. Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting what's Up community. It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other, to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead.

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