EP 107: Supporting stressed teens with Dr. Naomi Fisher and Eliza Fricker

Speaker 1: Dr Olivia Kessel

Speaker 2: Dr Naomi Fisher

Speaker 3: Eliza Fricker

Speaker 1: 0:06

Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. Before we start with the episode, I'd like to invite you to become a member of our Send Parenting what's Up? Community. It's a private space designed just for us. Parenting neurodiverse children can come with its own set of challenges, but it's also full of incredible moments of joy and growth. So I wanted to create a space where we can come together as neurodiverse parents to connect, share experiences and offer support to one another with no judgment and a lived in understanding. If you're a neuro navigator like me and have felt alone on this journey, then this is the community for you. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. Join us as we navigate this unique journey together. The link can be found in the show notes or you can direct message me on 078-569-15105, and I can personally add you in Looking forward to hearing from you in the community.

Speaker 1: 1:45

In today's episode, I will be sharing the recording from the book launch of the Teenager's Guide to Burnout with Dr Naomi Fisher and Eliza Fricker. It's written specifically for teenagers, with the great illustrations that Eliza does, but at the end of the book there is a chapter for us adults, although I'd highly recommend reading the entire book. It's an amazing resource for any teen that you might suspect might be on the road to burnout or already burnt out, and it offers a way forward and a road to recovery. I know a lot of the people that are on the Send Parenting community are currently experiencing this, with their children burned out because of education, suffering from anxiety. This book it's such a helpful resource. I know you guys are all fans of Dr Naomi Fisher and Eliza Fricker, so I know you're going to enjoy this, so hang tight and listen up for the recording so well. First of all, a big congratulations, eliza and Naomi, for your next book that's being released this week. The Teenager's Guide to Burnout, which I am so in tune with, is all I have to say.

Speaker 1: 2:55

It's absolutely fantastic and you know I've got to thank you for inviting me to come today to explore and to unpick this book, this survival guide, I would almost call it. You know and looking, you know the audience, people that have joined us today who might have a teenager who is either on the road to burnout or is in burnout. This kind of guide is just essential and you've really you've pitched it towards teenagers, but it's also incredibly valuable for a parent as well to read. I think anyone listening to this today who knows of a young person, a teenager, who is going through burnout, that this is something to think about, putting in the stocking stuffer and to give away because it really it's unique. And it's unique because it really talks to the teenager in a way that I think teenagers will understand. Now, this is very different from all the other books I've read and I am I've read all of your books, both of your books, um in that it's really geared towards a teenager. What inspired you and what brought this about to to write a book for teenagers?

Speaker 3: 4:04

Do you want to go, naomi?

Speaker 2: 4:06

Well, I think the number one thing is we both got teenagers, so we're both at that stage ourselves, and I think there was a bit of feeling of frustration that a lot of what was out there just didn't quite hit the mark like I would. I also read lots of. I read lots, lots of books. I've got lots of guides to all sorts of things on my shelf and often either the stuff that I would read either it would be very patronizing and I could feel myself cringing inside when I read it, or it would just be a bit too much. It felt like too much stuff, too much text. Eliza always says blocks of text, blocks of text, don't you Eliza? It's like you know, you just look at it. You're like blocks of text, not for me, um.

Speaker 3: 4:52

So I think as well that there's a lot of books out there that are sort of aimed at, but they still feel like they're sneakily written for the adult and I think this is sort of really important that we weren't doing that. You know, we do have a section for for parents and adults at the end, but I think that was something that can come across in certain texts that you read. You think are you trying to say this to appease the adults and the parents here, rather than actually what the young person might need to hear?

Speaker 2: 5:21

that's a really good point because I think it was when I wrote this book. When I first wrote this book, I sent it to Eliza and I was kind of like do you think anyone's going to want to read this? And she was like it's great, eliza's really one amazing like that. She's always it's great, but, um, because it's always? No, that's true, she doesn't always say that, but she it's quite.

Speaker 2: 5:41

It felt a bit transgressive writing it because I was really thinking about what do I think teenagers need to hear? And their parents might find that actually a bit hard to hear. And I think you're talking, aren't you Like? I'm thinking there's a couple of books I've read where it's like this is really a book that's about pushing an adult agenda onto kids. It's kind of like to convince them. I mean, obviously I often write about school and there are often books that you feel they're trying to kind of push this thing to kids. You must be at school. School's really a good place. You know, if you just think about it differently, you'll you'll realize that school's okay. And I was just like, actually there's something about meeting them right where they are, which is what I would do in the therapy room. You know where are you right now? I'm not here to tell you you're wrong about things.

Speaker 1: 6:24

I'm here to meet you right away, and you know kids are so, and especially teenagers are so good at picking up if there is an ulterior agenda.

Speaker 1: 6:31

You know what I mean there's.

Speaker 1: 6:32

You know they can smell a rat when there's a rat in the room.

Speaker 1: 6:36

So, and I think that's what I really you know, what really comes out loud and clear in this book is you are talking to them at their level and now that that you've explained that you have teenagers, you understand and in your clinical practice as well what a teenager is actually going through, and it really feels like it is for the teenager, not for the parent, but it's really good for the parent to read it too, because it gets you into the mind of the teenager as well and to kind of see it from their perspective, which I think is also unusual in terms of what's out there now on this topic.

Speaker 1: 7:05

So let's get into the nitty gritty of it, cause I think, first of all from the audience that's listening, and I think even from my perspective when I read it, it's kind of like you want you, you look for your child within the words that you are reading, and I wanted to kick off with what are some of the signs that us, as parents could could know that are part of a child going into burnout, either on the road to or in burnout, to actually realize that this is a book that could be beneficial to them, and some parents might know absolutely without a certain of doubt that their child is in burnout, but some not. What kind of clues would you give to parents?

Speaker 2: 7:53

Naomi yeah, so I think the earliest sign that I would be looking for is a loss of interest in anything. So it's not just a loss of interest in school, but it's kind of a not when they're saying just nothing really seems to be fun anymore, not really enjoying anything anymore. And I think that is a natural process that young people go through as they go from childhood into adolescence, where things that used to be fun aren't fun anymore. You know, you just don't get as much fun out of running around the playground or soft play or whatever it is, and I think there can be a bit of a moment where kids go oh and nothing. You know, christmas isn't as exciting as it used to be, and why is that? But I think when there's you never see them in this kind of state of engaged interest, curiosity. Then you could start to think oh, you know, there's something not quite there, it's that, it's that spark, it's the spark that's missing, and that that's when I would be starting to think like when they're saying maybe the same school?

Speaker 2: 8:43

oh, we get to choose our options next year. But I just don't really care which one I'm going to choose, it doesn't really matter. You know, there's a kind of flatness to things. I don't know what you think. Eliza, what kind of things do you notice?

Speaker 3: 8:54

Yeah, and I think this sort of you know we talk a little bit about, you know in our lives how we kind of offset, don't we? And we offset by having sort of time doing other things that we enjoy and perhaps those things are not bringing that joy as much so, whereas those things that we used to use, or they used to use, that would bring them those other bits of joy. Even those aren't kind of doing that anymore. I think can be another sign. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:22

So just just that kind of loss of interest in things that normally would spark them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and loss of engagement. I think it's just that kind of loss of interest in things that normally would spark them yeah, yeah, yeah, and loss of engagement.

Speaker 2: 9:29

I think it's that kind of. You know, I always think when you some. I think one of the things that could happen with teenagers is that they're encouraged, unfortunately, to give up some of the things that bring them joy because there's this focus on now you've got to buckle down and do GCSEs, you've got to think about work, you know, and this isn't going to get you anywhere in quotes, so you should be spending less time on that, and so they are deliberately kind of directed away from the things which maybe adults see as a waste of time, thinking particularly of things like video games or digital stuff. You know, they're directed towards what we think they should be doing and it can mean that their whole life is just becomes a set of duties, a set of tasks, and they're actually very little. There's actually very little space where they really just feel just doing this because it's great and then I mean I don't know about you, but I feel like lots of adults we've kind of, we have, we've often lost that ability as well.

Speaker 2: 10:20

We've lost that ability to just go and do something for fun yeah, and then we feel under that pressure, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 10:25

you know, when we kind of we know we're being overworked which is what we talk about in this book then you know we that becomes the focus and we can forget to do those other things.

Speaker 1: 10:35

As well as not finding the joy, we forget to do them, I think as well yeah, they don't feel as important because there's that stress and and you talk about this in the book how there's normal stress but then how stress can lead to burnout. Can you talk us a little bit through that so that parents can kind of recognize there's healthy stress and then when stress becomes unhealthy, yeah, so it's when, yeah, so healthy.

Speaker 2: 10:58

So stress, stress is part of life. Everybody feels stressed sometimes and we all sort of move between different states of stress. So sometimes we kind of feel lower, sometimes we feel higher, sometimes we feel, you know, like really alive. Sometimes we feel a bit like this and it's fine as long as we're moving between all those different states. The problem gets when we start to go into burnout, is when maybe we've been in a state of chronic stress for such a long time that we stop ever coming down. So there's never the kind of ah, you know, it's never like I've handed in my, my essay and now I can just relax for a bit because you don't feel relaxed. So it kind of becomes a you get.

Speaker 2: 11:34

So you, I talk about it in the book as you're like kind of in the stress. It can be this kind of quite energized state where you're like really feeling stressed about everything and then it's like your body just cannot cope with staying in that state of stress anymore, but you can't get back to being in a good place either. So you and I've got there's a lovely illustration by Eliza where basically the people there's like a demonstration, people with signs up saying no more. Stop, time for a break, and I think it's our body's way of saying this. I've been in this state of stress for too long.

Speaker 1: 12:06

I cannot keep going like this and you talk about getting in and out of stress. You know in the right zone and how to do it, and I think that's you know.

Speaker 2: 12:13

Um, that's a really interesting concept, because we don't really teach our children how to do this, or even ourselves sometimes no, we tend to just talk about stress as bad maybe, and I think that can actually be a problem as well, because teenagers can get very kind of like oh you know, I'm feeling anxious, I need to do something about that. And actually it's okay to feel anxious sometimes. It's okay to feel stressed sometimes. The problem is when that's always, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 12:37

And then how do you get yourself back out into, out of that zone?

Speaker 2: 12:40

And you talk about stress multipliers as well that zone and you talk about stress multipliers as well. So stress multipliers the things that can make stress worse. So you have the stress feeling and then the stress multiplier adds to that. So, for example, if you're feeling stressed and your response to that is to criticize yourself, so you go. I don't know why I always feel this way. Everybody else seems to cope okay with this. That's a stress multiplier, because you're adding stress to your stress.

Speaker 2: 13:07

And I think the thing that's so maybe unique about teenagers and children that isn't the case, say, if you're writing a book for adults about burnout is that parents are into that equation as well. So what parents do when their child is stressed also could either add to that stress multiplier or can kind of calm it down. And often parents you will be worried for themselves, they'll be stressed for themselves about their children, and so they will say things like you know you really need to focus on your exams or you know it's really important that you get this homework done, and that adds the pressure and stress. Do you want to tell them about the illustration that? You know which illustration I'm talking about, eliza the pressure and stress, the pressure and anxiety one you can't add no, it's all right, you can't.

Speaker 2: 13:50

There's one where you can't. You can't make someone feel less pressured and anxious by adding pressure and anxiety and I think we do that.

Speaker 3: 13:59

It is, you know, it is often well meaning when parents do that. You know it, but it but I think it's probably parents do it in a way that they will think is kind of encouraging. But actually for those who are already feeling enormous amount of pressure, that just feels like more pressure. You know where we're like. Well, you know, if you just get that homework done tonight, then you've got tomorrow and you know really feeling like you really cannot do that homework tonight.

Speaker 1: 14:27

It's, it's really unhelpful yes, and it's easy to want to do that as a parent, to kind of, you know, uh, unconsciously you know you think you're simplifying it, don't you?

Speaker 3: 14:38

you're kind of giving them it's actually, and you're also.

Speaker 2: 14:41

You're also maybe trying to relieve your own stress as a parent. You, you know it's stressful to have a child who's very stressed and you think if I could just get them over this then we could all relax. But the parent's stress and the child's stress both add to each other, basically, and make a kind of stress explosion.

Speaker 1: 14:59

Yeah, being there done that. Yes, I haven't written a book about it, but you know I dread homework, I think in equal measures to my daughter, I think many parents say that you kind of feel like you've got through the day and then you think now we've got to tackle that.

Speaker 3: 15:16

And it's in the home. It's in the place where it should be a decompression space, and it brings it into the home, doesn't?

Speaker 1: 15:24

it. And then also also I mean teenagers also they're, they're starting to become independent. They want to fix this as well. They want to fix these feelings of of being stressed and burned out and you talk about this really well in the book because it almost is, it's counterintuitive. They try and it backfires on them a bit, you know, and that that that then further, uh, creates the feelings because you try and push the feelings away.

Speaker 3: 15:45

There's a natural thing of teenagers pushing back isn't there. This is the next phase where they are starting to reject us because they're moving into that next phase. But it's and that's where it becomes really tricky.

Speaker 2: 15:57

That how do you support when they are seemingly pushing back on on on that support, yes yes, and I think what olivia's talking about as well is this sort of you don't want to have these feelings. And it's a really unfortunate psychological reality that the more you try and push your feelings away, the more they come back. I think in the book I talk about that as a burnout trap.

Speaker 2: 16:18

Yeah, that like you push, so the more you work really really hard to try and get those feelings to go away and they just keep coming back and it might feel like in the short term it works, but in the longer term you're still there, you're still in that trap and there's a nice illustration of a teenager on a hamster wheel. Isn't there just like running such hard work to stay in one place, not to go anywhere not to go anywhere and and and.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Then to feel just, you know, trapped, yeah, trapped, yeah, trapped. Exactly what would and I know this is kind of a leading question what would you say is one of the key causes of burnout among teenagers?

Speaker 3: 16:53

Eliza, I think it's probably being in that constantly, so being in that sort of state and being or enduring that experience for an extended period of time, and I think you know it's we, you know, I know mentioned that kind of offsetting earlier, but for them it can feel that there isn't any get out. It's every day doing the same thing under that same level of pressure, in that same environment and that's, you know, over a long period of time, and that I think is very impactful, can be very impactful it's almost insidious as of how it, you almost can't pinpoint when it starts.

Speaker 1: 17:33

But it's that, that repetition and that duration of time that you're under that pressure.

Speaker 2: 17:39

I think we put our teenagers on relentless pressure right from actually even our primary school children, unfortunately as well now. But there's just a push. You know, parents tell me that their children go into secondary school and they're told this is these next five years are going to determine the rest of your life. This is the time, and they're only 11 and they, some of them, take it on. You know, they take it totally literally, they believe it, and then they are in this state that if I mess this up, the rest of my life is over.

Speaker 2: 18:09

And I meet quite a few teenagers in therapy who are just, who are burnt out. Basically they're not doing very much, they're not going to school, everybody's really worried about them and they are despondent about the whole rest of their life because for them it's not just this is bad now, it's this if I don't do those exams and do really well in those exams, then it's the rest of my life, it's everything. And I think that's an awful place for teenagers to be in and I think it's again. It's one of those things I think people with good intentions tell teenagers, basically trying to get them to work hard. They're trying to get them to work hard. They're trying to get them to focus and they don't see the negative flip side of that, which is that when teenagers, and even a bit younger than teens, really believe that and then things go wrong, they lose hope, they're despairing.

Speaker 1: 19:00

And.

Speaker 2: 19:00

I think that's what I was really trying to do with this book was say there is hope. You know, you can be hopeful even if your whole you know, even if you're not attending school at all, you're not doing any exams, there can still be some hope, because it's that little spark of hope that will make the difference.

Speaker 1: 19:18

And it's the reality. Do you know what I mean? We are selling our children BS. If I might be quite frank, you know and Naomi, you're the one that opened my eyes a few books back you know, when you're like Olivia the GCSEs, a third of kids are going to fail, and that's how it's designed. As a test and I take it upon myself to talk to as many teenagers as I can that I know and I'm like do you know that this exam that everyone says is the end, all a third of you are going to fail? They don't. They don't mention that. Did they do? Oh no, they didn't. You know it's a complete, horrible fable that we are telling children, which is? You know that that this is the only road to success.

Speaker 3: 19:52

If we did that to us as adults, we would become, uh, burned out as well if we had that kind of pressure and add to that that every day you're told you know you've got a point because you forgot a pen or you didn't do your tie up properly. You know it's not just one element, you know there is a constant reminder to do it almost feels like you can't do enough or you can't keep on top of all of this stuff. It's very difficult to manage all of that and, like you said, if we were adults, you know I'm not sure we'd want to go and work somewhere if they were penalizing us for forgetting a pen or being. You know we've all been. I mean, I think I was late to our last recording of the podcast. You know, imagine if that was my fault.

Speaker 2: 20:33

Eliza not yours.

Speaker 3: 20:36

But imagine how much grottier we would have felt about that if we knew at the end of it we were penalized in some way Into detention for you, eliza, and you know I'd have to join you there too, because it was actually my fault as well.

Speaker 1: 20:47

So you know, naomi, you would get a pass, a gold star. But it's true, and I think you know a lot of what happens in school. This is a really great lead up to the next question is kind of the impetus for burnout, and I love how. I love the chapter that you wrote on burnout ingredients. You know I love cooking first of all, and as a parent, reading that I was like I could just see some of the risk factors in my own daughter of just you know a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of this.

Speaker 1: 21:15

That equals burnout Can you talk us a little bit through that and share with us some of your ingredients that you listed there.

Speaker 3: 21:21

I don't know if I actually folded that page over. We drew a cauldron, didn't we? With the ingredients that lead to burnout? Uh, burnout likely, high stress, feeling trapped going on for years.

Speaker 2: 21:33

So those are kind of the main ingredients, um yeah, and I think one of the things about writing this book is I was I read lots of books about burnout and I thought there's a real contrast between how we write for adults and how we write for teenagers. Because with adults, we acknowledge that the workplace may well be damaging you might well be toxic for you. There might be things about your workplace which are well. In fact, it's not just that we acknowledge that the World Health Organization definition of burnout says this is an occupational phenomena, it's not a medical phenomenon, and what they mean by that is it's something that is about work. If work is too much and to the, the situation at work is too much for you, then what happens is burnout.

Speaker 2: 22:20

But we don't acknowledge that. With school, we don't allow that to be the case. With school, with teenagers who are struggling to go to school or who aren't attending, we always locate the problem in them. They're always saying you know, they're anxious, they're lots of teenagers not going to school. We've got lots of teenagers not attending. What is going on in that school environment? Is it an environment in which teenagers are able to thrive?

Speaker 2: 22:55

A bit like we might look at a toxic workplace and say what's going on in this workplace? All the employees are going off sick, they're all going off on long-term stress. What's going on? And we're not doing that with our young people.

Speaker 1: 23:08

And why do you think that is? I mean, it just seems. I mean, well, you know, in some ways, like I guess I also drunk that Kool-Aid too before meeting you and starting this book but why? Why do we all just think that school is the most wonderful and only route to success?

Speaker 2: 23:25

Because, we all went to school. We all went to school, we were all taught that at school.

Speaker 1: 23:31

We've all had miserable experiences that we can talk about. About school Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 23:36

We've had good and bad. Yeah, yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I don't know why. Do you think Eliza?

Speaker 3: 23:41

Well, you know, you said it before that school is kind of seen as benign, isn't it? It's not something that we scrutinise in that way. It probably stems back as well to children not really having much of a voice. Before we didn't kind of value the young person's voice as much as we do now and we're kind of. I mean, I'm hoping this is a change and we're going to kind of we are seeing this eventual change that we understand that young people do have as much of a voice as as adults. But I think, you know, that's partly it. It stems back to, you know, children just had to crack on and get on with it if the adults told them to do that.

Speaker 3: 24:16

But, um, you know, times are changing. It doesn't sit like that. We don't. We don't live or work. Like you know. I think we've changed a lot of things. The way we parent has shifted as well, um, you know, and I think that we have put more stipulations into that environment than we've ever had before. We've got more. It's so much more target driven as well than it previously was. It leaves very little wiggle room for individualized teaching, and you know, I could go on, but I think there's many elements to it that it's not saying we ever had a good time of it. We've shared our own school experiences, but I think it's got more restrictive actually.

Speaker 1: 24:57

I like your alien analogy. You know, like if aliens landed and looked at our school system, what would they think? And that kind of is like yeah, what would they think?

Speaker 2: 25:05

Yeah, they think it was a strange thing to do to all the young of our species. We put them in a building and teach them stuff there and it's all separate from the adult world. I also think there's something about a mindset towards children and young people where we tend to assume that it's all about behaviour and if they're demonstrating distress, it tends to be seen as behaviour, bad behaviour. And I remember when I was training as a clinical psychologist one of the things that they taught us was you know, you have to, you can't with. When you're looking at children and teenagers, it's more complicated to pick up on things like depression or anxiety, because they may well not come and say I'm feeling really low, they may well not come. Actually, they're a bit more now. When I trained it wasn't really. Now teenagers are talking a lot more about anxiety, but they didn't used to. But they might be coming with tummy aches or they might be coming with headaches or they might be coming with disruptive behavior and all of those things are an indication that things are not all right for this child. But what's happening? Unfortunately, I think maybe we just have a cultural understanding of. We look at a disruptive child and the tendency is to say they've got to be shown not to be disruptive, we've got to teach them, we've got to make them, we've got to put consequences in place to stop them behaving like this, rather than asking the question what is going on that is leading to this situation where this child feels that this is the only only way to cope with this, this current situation.

Speaker 2: 26:40

I really like dr ross green's kind of central thesis or tenet of kids do well if they can. If you just approach the world with the idea kids do well if they can. So if they're not, let's ask why. Let's think about why they're not. Kids do well if they can, so if they're not, let's ask why. Let's think about why they're not able to do well in this situation. And I like the way he writes about. He says you know, sometimes people were like well, what, how do I know? What if they're not? What if they could? You know what if that's not true? And he says it doesn't matter. Actually it's just your mindset. If you go into it with this mindset of kids will do well if they can, so if they aren't, let's look at why. It's going to be a helpful mindset, as opposed to the mindset which is often there, which is kids don't do well because they can't be bothered and they're not trying hard enough.

Speaker 3: 27:26

And we need to. We need to make them work harder around teenagers, and that's something that I think you know. We were very interested to kind of unpack that and give the teenagers a much more um well, be be meeting them where they're at and and because I think you know, we, we know there's, like the Kevin and Perry, you know, this kind of this sulky lethargy that you know all teenagers are like that and and it's very dismissive because actually you know we could be missing a lot of key signs there about a teenager who is feeling quite fed up and disengaged with things.

Speaker 3: 27:59

But we will very easily kind of wash over that with a kind of you know teenagers are rude and disinterested and you know, I think that takes away a kind of their voice, a little bit of what they might be feeling actually.

Speaker 1: 28:13

And and and ignores them to a larger degree as well, and ignores what's going on. Um, exactly to both of your points there, um, and what's really great, though and what I love about your book is it's it looks at the problem, but then it also gives a road forward and how to actually come out of burnout, a gradual process, and you use the car analogy, first of all, which I really liked on the road to recovery, which I'd love you to talk about, and then also your story. Eliza in that section was really powerful as well.

Speaker 2: 28:44

So maybe, naomi, you could talk about the car analogy and then, eliza, you can share with us your story, yes, so the car analogy is basically the idea that we if you think we could, it's a metaphor for thinking about life and basically saying we all like, like a vehicle or like a car, and cars thrive in different environments and there's nothing wrong with being a mini or being a land rover, whatever you. Just you know, if you're in a particular environment, you need a different kind of car. When we're on the right kind of road and we're, the car is well suited to the road or the environment, we can carry along that road. Maybe, you know, we might, there might be obstacles from time to time, but basically we're able to keep going forward on the road. But if that road, there are problems with the road, maybe it's really bumpy, or maybe we're just very well suited to it, or there might be issues going on with us, other things that are going on with us at the time. Maybe there's things happening in our family or, you know, maybe teenagers have just growing up is quite hard, all the body changes and that kind of thing that's going to make your car a bit more vulnerable. So, again, we've got this kind of interaction between you, the car and the road, which is the environment.

Speaker 2: 29:49

Um, so I'm saying burnout is like, basically, when you get off road and you can't get back, you're stuck off. You're like I can see over there the life I'd like to be living, but I can't get there anymore, just, and everything's really hard. So I talk about a kind of four-step recovery process, and the first one is basically crisis emergency. You know we're off the road, don't know what to get back, and that's just the stage to slow everything down and to just take a few deep breaths and not to start thinking about how am I going to get back to school or how am I going to get back on track, but just thinking of right, I'm here now and it's, it is like being off road.

Speaker 2: 30:26

You need, you need the crisis team, you need the recovery, you need the people to come and take you to the garage and, you know, help, catch you up. And what that means is a bit of time off, means a bit of time to relax, and it doesn't necessarily mean off, as in stopping doing everything. It means time to do things that you enjoy with the people who love you and who care about you, without pressure. And that's step one. And what's step two? Um, yeah, what is step two?

Speaker 1: 30:53

oh, it's repair yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:55

So that's crisis. Then repair so repair is when we're starting to build things back again, um, and it's when we're just starting to think about oh yes, maybe I'm ready to do a little bit more. So I talk about it sometimes. I know this is really mixed metaphors, but I talk about it as like kind of green shoots. It's like when you think there's that little spark of curiosity is coming back, that little spark of oh actually, maybe I quite like to do something.

Speaker 2: 31:18

Because in the crisis stage of saying it's important to just do nice things, even if you don't really feel like doing them, you know, just, even if actually you just feel annoyed and angry and everything, it's just important to do things that you know you might enjoy move your body a bit, eat nice food, spend time with people who care about you. In the repair stage, you're more about oh, actually, maybe I'm feeling like I've got a bit of interest and maybe I'd like to go and start learning about this again, or maybe I'd like to explore this thing that I'm, or play a game with a friend or something like that. And then stage three is when you is the only stage when you start to look behind and think okay, what went wrong. So I think, like looking back over the accident, you're like okay what brought me here?

Speaker 2: 32:01

what are the things maybe that were going on for me or in my environment which weren't working for me, and I've got exercises all the way through the book to help them do that. And then the last one is looking to the future. So it's going okay. So what do I want to happen next? And I say in the book that often when it, when you're a teenager and when you, when things go wrong, everybody is really wants to skip to stages three and four straight away.

Speaker 2: 32:26

They're like what, let's fix it yes, the adults like come on, let's get you back, let's get you back. We want you to do this and I say you need to take those. Early stages are absolutely essential because otherwise what will happen is you get back in, back on the road and then it happens again because you haven't actually dealt with the reasons why.

Speaker 3: 32:43

So, eliza, tell us about your story well, I was just going to say what I really like is that you've have these exercises in there around me, so these, I think, are really nice way to kind of. I would have found this very helpful to have that kind of scaffolding around it and the practical elements to it. And it's one of them which is what can I change? It's stressful things, so, for example, boredom. Can I change it? If so, what was the first step? Yes, I can make more time to do the things that interest me and then, if I can't change it right now, is there a way to help me manage it? And I think those are really nice practical things to work on at some stage when you feel ready to do them, and there's a few different exercises like that through the book, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:25

I like the one also that you know, when you're on that you know, looking at going forward, that you, you use the acronym sear, but you know, looking at going forward, that you you use the acronym SEER. But you know small and easy. And what was it? Small, easy, attractive and repeat Cause you know we oftentimes will say things like, oh, I'm going to you know, uh, do this as a new year's. You know we had big, big, big ideas, you know, but actually those big ideas just make you end up feeling like a failure. So you know it's, it's it. All of your steps are about taking small, easy chunks and just being kind and taking that time and your exercises kind of highlight that.

Speaker 2: 34:01

Yeah, baby steps, isn't it? It's like where can, what tiny step could I take where I am here that would take me in the direction I want to go in? But yes, because you're right, it's like setting a target on the 1st of January, like I'm going to get fit and then you're like, oh my goodness, it's such a long way to even start with that Eliza was going to tell us about.

Speaker 3: 34:23

Yeah, so what we also did is we put in here kind of real life, we illustrated real life examples of people who how would would you describe that Gone a different way. Would you say that's the way to describe those stories we've put in? Or?

Speaker 1: 34:36

found different ways. I thought they were really validating because it's they're real stories, real people just like you, eliza, who have, you know, done things differently and been successful, you know. So I think it's very validating because of all those messages we talked about earlier, about how you know, if you're not in school and if you're not succeeding, you're going to be a failure. And then you read these vignettes that you have in the book which really it's like no, actually there are different ways, there are different pathways. So it's very I thought I found it very validating all of the stories that were shared in there.

Speaker 3: 35:18

Yeah, and I think they differed because some of them they have an element of school not seeing what's going on for them outside of school which they found very difficult, and for others it was about kind of finding their own way and at whatever stage. And my one is kind of talking about how in school I was a top set student and did very well, you know, had top grades, but that made me very unwell and I had a lot of time off school because of that, because of that pressure that you know, a lot of that was pressure I put on myself too to do really well and then those pressures actually becoming really impactful as I got older. So being told that I would go to a really good art school to do a degree, and actually kind of self-sabotaging that because by that stage I was really done in with it all. And then I spent quite a long time doing things with um that were very, very low demand, because I didn't want that pressure that I'd felt in school again and couldn't cope with that sort of pressure.

Speaker 3: 36:11

So it wasn't actually until, you know, I started doing this work that I felt that drive to do it, and most of that was because it was self-driven and self-motivated and I had that actual passion. Even previous to this, when I worked as a designer. I didn't have that passion for it. It looked like it was a very successful business, but I had no passion for it, and so it's those elements for me that have worked very well, to have that passion and to have that drive to do it for myself and and feel that it's it's mine to do it. And you know that's taken me till how old however old I was 40 ish, around the age of 40.

Speaker 1: 36:52

So yeah, yeah, it's it, you know it, it and I think that's key to to to the road to recovery is taking that pressure off.

Speaker 1: 37:00

Um, and I love you end the book kind of um, because we have about five minutes left before we open up for questions. But you end the book with a section for parents and I think that you know we are. Uh, the book is designed for teenagers to read and, as I said, I think it's really valuable for parents and I think that you know we are. The book is designed for teenagers to read and, as I said, I think it's really valuable for parents to read it as well. But at the end you talk about, like maybe, some of the things that are going through our minds as adults and how we can help our children and you equate, kind of what we can do in each of those stages as a parent. So what things you know when you, when you're dealing with a child, your teenager, who is burned out, what advice can you give parents, as you have given in this book of how to help facilitate, cause it kind of it goes against the grain and it goes against other advice you might've read.

Speaker 3: 37:49

Well, I was just reading. There was one paragraph that really stuck out that I reread over the weekend. Uh, this is the bit of the end for parents. It says this book is different. It puts mental health and emotional well-being first. It encourages teenagers to think about themselves and the things they need in life to be happy and to ask themselves whether school provides that. For this reason, you as an adult might find the contents of this book quite challenging. It is upfront about the reasons the school system can cause distress in young people. It does not try to persuade them that school isn't as bad as they think. It starts with validating young people's experiences.

Speaker 1: 38:25

And I think that is so true. And, naomi, you know you have amazed me because you've spoken about this before and I think I've had some of my listeners come back to me and go. You know they were really held up because, looking back or reflecting on their life, have they actually put the wellbeing of their child above everything else? And sadly, you know, even looking at myself, it's not always. It's not what we, it's not our, we think it is, but it's not always our outcome. And I think when you do focus just on that and that quote is beautiful then everything else falls into place and how we can connect with our children when they are burned out, how we can take that pressure off and how we can help them to, you know, kind of come to their own terms and in their own time. You talk about U-turn of parenting and I think that's really, it's really important and you've helped me to do a U-turn in parenting, I have to admit.

Speaker 2: 39:17

Yeah, I think the U-turns can sometimes be yes, to take that pressure off and say it's going to be okay, we're going to help you.

Speaker 1: 39:23

And actually I think, when I wrote that paragraph.

Speaker 2: 39:25

I think I'd just done something with lots of therapists who were working with children, some training with them, and they were saying that when they have a child referred to them in child and adolescent mental health services and the child's not attending school, they feel this intense pressure between what you would usually do, which is, let's think about what's best for this child's mental health, but they've got to get back to school as soon as possible and the two you know they were talking about this conflict and I was. It was so relieving. I loved hearing them because I was like, yes, that's what I feel too, and it's good to hear that that's not just me, um, but but yeah, I think it needs to be made more obvious because I thought when I was doing some of the research for some of my books, I read lots of books about young people who aren't attending school and looked at the advice that was being given, and one book in particular told parents that if their children weren't attending school, they should ignore them from 9 to 3 30. This was a book like. It's a current book. It's a book people still use.

Speaker 2: 40:26

Um, it said aim for an atmosphere of solitary confinement in the hours of school, and this was a handout for parents, and I was just like I just cannot think of any other thing about mental health that is going to say don't have any contact with that person because they're not doing what you want them to do, which is go to school.

Speaker 2: 40:45

And I just thought this is such destructive advice, which I think is why this book is a bit forthright and being kind of like you know, this isn't going to. You can't. You can't force someone into an environment that really isn't working for them and hopes that that's going to be okay. And I think the other important thing to say is that I've worked. I know lots of teenagers who've gone through a kind of stage of burnout and who've gone through this kind of stage of re-evaluation, and some of them, lots of them, do go back to school. They go back to school, though, on their own terms, and they go back to school with a kind of different attitude to it and then and things are different and often and school has to meet them halfway as well, I think- it's not enough for them just to go back into exactly what was the environment or maybe they go back to a different school.

Speaker 2: 41:28

But sometimes parents, when I talk to them, will say so, you mean, we just have to give up with you. What are we going to do? They're not going to go. No, you don't have to give up. It's just that I'm saying that pushing them back at all costs doesn't work. It doesn't work for their mental health and wellbeing. And in the longterm, that's going to be more important. You know, when they're, however much older they're going to be, it's going to be more important whether they have that time to recover.

Speaker 1: 41:50

Yeah, absolutely, and go on to be. You know to be who they want to be and you know that. That it isn't I think, parents also taking that step back and reading some of those case studies that you have in there, it's like it's okay to your child. It isn't the doom and gloom that we've been sold.

Speaker 3: 42:07

There is light at the end of the tunnel, I think, when you read those case studies, many of those people in there who are extremely doing extremely well in things that make them very happy and fulfilled. There's nothing about needing that kind of academic achievements to have got there. You know they've got there through their ability and their dedication to that and their their passion for that, that work, and it's very again, that's the thing kind of for young people. It's very kind of focused, isn't it? You have to get these exams, know when you're an adult and you do well and you can meet deadlines. I think there's apart from, obviously, the obvious jobs, you know no one's going to ask you about those GCSEs. It's irrelevant.

Speaker 1: 42:50

Actually, for many jobs, it's how good you are at doing it and that you have your mental well-being and health, because that will put you in good speed for the rest of your life. Anyway, we are a quarter to the hour and I know we wanted to give 15 minutes to answering some questions from the chat, if there is any, and as Naomi already said, please don't put any personal details or ask any clinical questions. These are really questions about the book and the topic burnout, so I don't know how Naomi's going to open that up, but I'm presuming you know how to do it.

Speaker 2: 43:21

Naomi, I have just opened up the chat. Yes, the chat is now open, so you can talk to everybody. So if you're going to say something in the chat, can I just say where it says two, there's a little blue square, and ideally make sure that says everyone, because or else, if you want to just say it to us, you can just say coast and co-host. So if you want to ask your question anonymously, then if you put coast and co-host, then we will be able to read it, but not everybody else.

Speaker 1: 43:46

Um, yes, so I'm just that's well, there's, there's a big thank you for Ruth, to both of you, uh, both of you women changing people's lives, and I would, I, would, I would second that you are um, because you are. You're bringing this out and and you are um changing the way people think and parents think. So I think that's a really good comment. Thank you, ruth.

Speaker 2: 44:07

Somebody I'm so okay. Someone says, oh. Someone says they won't say it to everyone. Thank you for telling me that that is because I have not changed the settings properly. I have now there we are. Try again again. Somebody have another go? Uh, yes, um, somebody's said will this book help? Um, mature girls a12, absolutely, I, we've used teenagers. Actually, we kind of used teenagers slightly deliberately because we knew that, um, younger, those who are a bit younger than teenagers, do not object generally to being given books that talk about teenagers, but teenagers don't like having something which implies that they're younger. So, yeah, so absolutely, I would say from puberty upwards. Really, I'd say it's aimed at secondary school age and we've tried to make it when one of the reasons it has all these, well, we, obviously it's really highly illustrated. So there are lots of books. Uh, few people are raising their hands, is that?

Speaker 1: 45:01

because you still can't say everyone, I can't see the chat either okay, sorry, yes, try again.

Speaker 2: 45:06

Thank you everyone for doing exactly what I asked you to do. Amazing, okay, uh, try again. Everyone, I'm just doing their time of charm. Yeah, uh, somebody yes, yay, victorious managed it, yay, fantastic, great, okay, sorry everybody, I even I'll own my mistake penalty points for now. I know yet again. I inadvertently said it to participants could chat with no one and then they all shut up. Of course they did. We didn't, okay.

Speaker 1: 45:36

So is it relevant?

Speaker 2: 45:37

to home educated teens? Yes, yes, it absolutely is, but it does have a whole chapter on school burnout. So, um, yes, it talks about home education, but it doesn't talk about home education burnout.

Speaker 1: 45:49

That wasn't an angle I went down um, but yes, it's and what about if a teen is too burned out to read a book? Yeah, that is. That is a tricky one isn't it yeah?

Speaker 3: 46:00

it's being an audio book, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 2: 46:03

it's a good question. I haven't heard about an audio book. Actually, one of the reasons we've done the book as we did it, with loads of pictures, was because actually with our earlier books so with my earlier books in particular, which are aimed at adults, squarely aimed at adults, but have some pictures in them, many parents got in touch and said, oh, my young person or my teenager's been flicking through and they really like the pictures. So we did lots of pictures in the hope that even the most burned out might just flick through and see some of the pictures and see some of the things like the alien. And it's kind of designed so that it's hopefully in sort of small bits with bits of different places, so that they might something, might spark. But if they won't read it, I would read it yourself. I would start off always. Basically, if they, if you don't think, if they're, if they're not at the point where they can read it, it might have some useful, might have some useful things for yourself.

Speaker 1: 46:59

And it looks like maybe you guys should be recording an audio book because it's that long.

Speaker 3: 47:04

Yes, I think, I think we should come along after, don't they?

Speaker 2: 47:07

They do, they've done the naughty step as an audio book yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:12

If you're struggling with your teenager to read it, you can also drop in here that we did get some good stories in here, and one of them is very well regarded fashion uh designer who, like even even my teenager, was quite impressed that we got that one in there. So you know, that might work, that might yeah yeah yeah, we tried to get people in there with the stories that you know might chime with them and kind of be a good hook, if you like.

Speaker 1: 47:43

So yes, and then there's some questions. I think there's a common theme here about you know what about if your child is burned out due to school.

Speaker 2: 47:50

but they still want me a lot, and I think that was one of the reasons actually for writing this book because I think, hopefully, well, it presents a different perspective and I think, hopefully it might help teenagers to think about school in a different way to how they've been encouraged to think about it, and that they might start to see some of the reasons why it might be difficult for them. And in a different way, because I think there's something really validating about seeing oh okay, it's not just me because I think talk to so many teenagers who, like you know, everybody else seems to be fine. I don't understand why I can't manage. It must be something wrong with me and I don't want to be different to everyone else. So I want to be back there and I think, just just even hearing that there are loads of other people who are in the same situation, because you talk, don't you, eliza, about how you just thought it was. It was just you when you were in the situation with your child.

Speaker 3: 48:52

Yeah, I think we all need to know that it's not just us, don't we? Whatever that situation is, that it's not just us, don't we? Whatever that situation is. So, I think, finding others that you know and and I think this, like we said earlier, it is a very unique perspective in the sense that we are validating those teenagers experiences, um, and telling them it isn't just them yeah, yeah, and I think, um, what was I going to say?

Speaker 2: 49:13

someone's just. I just want to answer one very basic question, which is it comes out on Thursday, so it's, it's be ready Thursday. If you pre-order it now, you'll get it on Thursday. Yes, so someone said, someone said the alternative being told you have anxiety and EBSA. Yes, it basically is in some ways an alternative to that. It's like actually there might not be.

Speaker 3: 49:33

I've got my own question that I think might come up. Yeah, oh, I think might come up. Yeah, uh, why did? Why is our book not uh about the neurodivergent perspective on?

Speaker 2: 49:50

burnout. Why did we not specify, why is it not the teenagers guide to autistic burnout? That is a really good question. Um, and I think it's because, well, well, I know why it is, but I think it's because, essentially, what I find with teenagers is that it's good to not to have. I think it's I would say it's neurodiversity informed, but it's not neurodiversity specific, because I find that lots of teenagers don't necessarily strongly identify with a diagnosis, don't necessarily strongly identify with a diagnosis. Lots of teenagers have experiences which could be diagnosed but don't have a diagnosis, and some of them that I meet actively hate the diagnosis that they have and I wanted this book to be inclusive for all of them, whether whatever their relationship with themselves is really.

Speaker 2: 50:38

And I think there isn't any evidence that the burnout, the process of burnout, is distinctly separate in different diagnostic groups. We have no research that shows us that autistic burnout is completely different to other kinds of burnout. Of course, there are many different routes into burnout and many different ways out of burnout, but we don't have research that says this group is so different that they need a different, completely different thing. So I think you'll find that the book throughout talks about difference and different people and different things that people might find difficult, and I call that my non-diagnostic approach to neurodiversity, where we're acknowledging and accepting neurodiversity, but wherever it where, whoever it comes up in, wherever it comes up in, um, yeah, and I think that is particularly important for teenagers in my and the way that your book is kind of structured and the way that you do the exercises.

Speaker 1: 51:30

In the book you kind of go on a pathway of self-discovery in terms of what's causing your, your burnout and your ingredients, you know. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's outside of diagnosis, it's very personal. I think you know to to find out what's personally taken your child on this journey and that through this book that kind of highlights it to the individual. Someone has asked if you could, if it's okay for the teenager to read it by themselves or if they should have an adult. But I think you know it's something you know. I'm just going to answer this myself here. I think that you would be missing a trick not to read this as an adult as well, you know.

Speaker 2: 52:05

You should be missing a trick. Yes, I mean, you know it's funny, because there's this strange thing writing a book for teenagers because you know that lots of adults will read it, and also there's the even stranger thing of writing the guide for parents at the end, knowing that the teenagers will read it. So it's like it's very meta.

Speaker 2: 52:22

You know you're writing for this one group and then there's the other group, yeah, and it's um, yeah, so you're always writing for multiple layers and I say you know, as a therapist, I read a lot of self-help books for who are actually, which are actually aimed at people who are maybe experiencing depression or experiencing anxiety, because they're really helpful for me to understand and I think that's, you know, that's just how it is. Oh, someone's asking about whether we're on tiktok. Oh yeah, I just haven't even thought about going into tiktok.

Speaker 3: 52:51

I've just gone on to blue sky and sub stack and that's hit me over the edge, so I think another thing would be yeah, yeah there.

Speaker 1: 52:59

Yeah, there's some comments about how this, how the book, will resonate with adults as well, as well as children, and that's.

Speaker 2: 53:04

Yes, and it might encourage people to look, think back about their own school experiences and think back, think about it in a different way.

Speaker 1: 53:10

Perhaps Do you see an age where burnout is most common and does it coincide, Sorry?

Speaker 2: 53:20

I most common? And does it coincide sorry, I can't read today with hormonal surges? That's a really interesting question and one which I do not know the answer to because I think we'd need to do the research. But I do know the ages at which children tend to struggle most at school. The research shows that there's a group of children who come into school and find it immediately really difficult, and that's so sort of far and particularly actually when it becomes less play-based, so when we go into year one and they're expected to start sitting down and reading and writing that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 53:46

Then there's another group who find the transition to secondary school extremely difficult at 11. And parents often talk about that and I see completely why that happens, because there's a real you know people. Children go from a small environment where everybody knew them to to having one teacher all day, to being in this huge school where they move every hour and a lot of them parents often say it's like falling off a cliff at that stage. And then there's the 13, 14 age where exams are ramping up and.

Speaker 2: 54:15

I would love to know whether that's specific to the UK, because of course, lots of other countries don't have exams at 16, and so I think we do have a particularly relentless process in the UK where from age 13 or 14 everybody's focused on exams and there's this kind of feeling you can't afford to take a step wrong at this stage.

Speaker 2: 54:36

You know you've got to get once you do your GCSEs, then you're straight into whatever you do next and you've got two years of that and then it's. It feels like we start them off at age 13 or 14 and right the way through to their like middle mid-20s or early 20s. There's a kind of sense of there's no time to waste here. You've got to buckle down at this stage when they're going through massive developmental changes.

Speaker 3: 54:58

I mean just everything rearranging, everything reorganizing, and yet at the same time we put on this intense pressure yeah, I've heard a lot of families say that they were kind of allowed a bit of leniency with um, occasional days off, whether they were called mental health days or reset days, but they said that they won't be able to do that once the GCSEs start, and they're talking about that kind of from you know 14.

Speaker 1: 55:20

So it's you know, yeah, isn't that the most crucial time that you would need those kind of days?

Speaker 2: 55:25

Yes, and such a vulnerable stage too, like we know, in mental health. From a mental health perspective, we know that adolescence is a vulnerable stage in terms of it's often when serious mental health symptoms start to show up for the first time. It's of it's often when serious mental health symptoms start to show up for the first time. It's often when we've got this combination of high pressure, lots of change, lots of expectations going up, and yet we just relentlessly put more pressure on them.

Speaker 1: 55:49

Find it really, really yeah really sad just looking here to see some people are sharing their personal stories, which is great, but we're not going to touch upon those.

Speaker 2: 55:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 56:00

And I just wanted to say.

Speaker 2: 56:01

A few people have talked about trauma. This book does not specifically talk about trauma and school trauma. I mean, it talks about school burnout, but it doesn't focus. I think I'm right about that. I haven't actually got a copy here. I think I'm right in saying it doesn't go into trauma. Yeah, it doesn't, that's fine, and that was again a deliberate choice, because I know not everybody is traumatized by their experiences, and I wanted this to be a book specifically about burnout.

Speaker 2: 56:30

Perhaps down the line there might be another one that I do about trauma for teenagers, but I think that will be different. Trauma for teenagers, but I think that will be different. And I think yeah, I just think, you know, I didn't want to introduce that to people, to young people who aren't traumatized are you sending your books to schools?

Speaker 2: 56:49

there hasn't been much interest has yet. But we do have a Eliza and I do have a book coming out in the new year which is about school attendance difficulties with with a different publisher, which is for academics, which is for I'm not for academics, it's an academic publisher, it's for professionals, for teachers, and that's called when schools, what can we do when schools not work? And it does talk. It talks about school burnout, talks about school, talks about all of these different things.

Speaker 1: 57:20

So all of the questions that you can't answer right now will be there in the new year.

Speaker 2: 57:25

Yeah, absolutely yes.

Speaker 1: 57:27

You're always one step ahead of the curve you two, oh gosh. We've just hit at the one o'clock time and I know that we only scheduled an hour. So great, great news.

Speaker 1: 57:41

And I think there's going to be a lot of pre-purchases of your book. I would really highly recommend that for anyone who has a teenager even if they're not your own teenager who you think can benefit from this book to buy it and have it as a stocking stuffer, because it is so validating and I think you know even teenagers not experiencing burnout. It's a good book. It's a you know, it really it makes it makes a teenager question and to understand in a way that I don't think has been put forward out there. So I think it's highly valuable.

Speaker 3: 58:10

I speak to a lot of parents as well shifting their ideas about you know Naomi touched on that earlier about their own kind of you know experiences, and it might help them to kind of unpick their own stuff too and potentially, um, you know change the way you think.

Speaker 1: 58:25

You know, and I also wanted to and thank you guys for letting me to do a call out here Cause, as you know, I'm the send parenting podcast host and this week is our hundredth um anniversary of our episodes not a hundred years, but a hundred episodes and we have a week long event.

Speaker 1: 58:40

I'm going to include the link for anyone that's interested. But on Wednesday we have Dr Chris Bagley, who you both know, coming on at 12, and he's going to be there to answer questions in the chat. But he looks at rethinking education too and he really explores how you can I mean, naomi, you blow my mind. He blows my mind about how we can do things differently and how kids can really thrive in different environments at school, outside of school, that maybe a lot of us parents aren't even aware of, and so you know, I'm going to include that because and there's other, there's other people during the week too, which, uh, but that one, I think, particularly links to this, cause I think that's that's part of this, for all of us is understanding that that school isn't the end-all, be-all and that it can be. The impetus of some of the problems that we see with burnout is where it stems from, so yeah, I like to think that Chris Bagley's got the kind of hard facts behind this, hasn't he?

Speaker 1: 59:30

he's, he's just, I mean he's, he's an encyclopedia, you know, he's amazing.

Speaker 2: 59:37

Thank you so much, olivia for for doing this olivia. We asked olivia to do this because she reads the books with great, and then she asked fantastic questions and she matches her tops to the. Yeah, we didn't know that she'd be doing the coordination thing as well. That's an extra, just the icing on the cake, that one really. Thank you so much everyone for coming and we hope you really like the book and we will be. Yes, this will be released as a podcast in January so people can listen to it again.

Speaker 1: 1:00:04

Thank you. Okay, thank you, take care. Bye, bye. Thank you for listening. Send Parenting Tribe. I hope you enjoyed the book launch as much as I did. I just can't wait for their next book. If I could ask you a huge favor if you've enjoyed this podcast and other podcasts, please leave us a review on your preferred podcast platform. It means a lot. It will get more visibility for the podcast. I think I've had 35 responses so far, which is much better than it was, but it could be a lot better. So if you could take a few seconds, give us a rating it's a star rating both in iPodcasts and in Spotify it would be much appreciated. Wishing you and your family a good week ahead, you, you.