EP 101: Nutrition for Neurodivergent Children with Lucinda Miller
Speaker Names
Dr Olivia KesselHost
0:06
Welcome to the Send Parenting Podcast. I'm your neurodiverse host, dr Olivia Kessel, and, more importantly, I'm mother to my wonderfully neurodivergent daughter, alexandra, who really inspired this podcast. As a veteran in navigating the world of neurodiversity in a UK education system, I've uncovered a wealth of misinformation, alongside many answers and solutions that were never taught to me in medical school or in any of the parenting handbooks. Each week on this podcast, I will be bringing the experts to your ears to empower you on your parenting crusade. For the next five weeks, as we navigate the holiday season and go into a new year, I will be releasing podcasts from the recordings of our 100th episode celebration, the week-long event where we had some of our favorite podcast guests come back and share their stories with us. So I know not all of you could join, so I wanted to give you an opportunity so that when you need a moment, when you just want to listen, grab yourself a cup of tea. You can come and listen to them at your own leisure. So we're going to start it off this week, kicking it off with Lucinda Miller, who I know is a favorite of many of my listeners.
01:25
With Lucinda Miller, who I know is a favorite of many of my listeners. She's founder and clinical lead of NatureDoc, a UK-wide team of naturopaths, nutritionists and nutritional therapists, and she will be sharing with us some of her amazing knowledge about nutrition and neurodiversity, as well as giving us some insights of her recently released book, brain Brilliance. I know you're going to enjoy her episode. So welcome, lucinda. It is great to have you come back to join us for this live event celebrating the 100th episode of the SEND Parenting Podcast.
01:55
I can't quite believe where has the time gone and how have I had 100 episodes? But your episode where you joined us over a year ago episode number 38, was really popular, where we discussed ADHD and how nutrition and supplements can actually impact and help children and adults who are managing ADHD. But today I'm really looking forward and catching up on what you've been up to. I'm sure there is a lot of inspiring and amazing things that you have gotten up to in the past year, not least the release of your new book, brain Brilliance. So it's from my understanding and I haven't read it yet but it's a kind of nutritional toolkit for neurodiverse kids and families. Can you tell us a little bit more about it?
Lucinda MillerGuest
02:40
Yeah, olivia, it's lovely to be back and yes, I've been a busy bee writing a book and it came out at the end of August and it sold out in two weeks. Wow, congratulations. No-transcript, sometimes there's a long waiting list, etc. But anyway. But anyway, yes, so you're exactly right, it's called brain brilliance and it's a nutritional toolkit for the neurodivergent mind. So it embraces all neurodivergents, whether someone's dyslexic, dyspraxic, adhd, autistic, but also other things like angel man syndrome, cerebral palsy down, etc. And then things like long COVID as well in kids, which is you know, and those sorts of things can affect the mind just as much and affect learning trajectories.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
03:52
And trauma, I have to add to like kids that have experienced trauma, which, you know, present with a very neurodiverse picture, could probably benefit as well. I'm just guessing that.
Lucinda MillerGuest
04:01
Absolutely so. It's a very supportive book, it's a very inclusive book and it's there really to provide lots of information all the questions that people have always had about nutrition and the brain. So I go into a deep dive into the neurotransmitters, all the individual nutrients, and then I have a chapter on individual challenges that so many neurodivergent kids experience. So it could be emotional dysregulation, it could be fussy eating, it could be anxiety, tics, OCD, it could be sleep problems, etc. So I sort of try and embrace all the things that kids may be going through.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
04:45
And then equate how nutrition can help navigate some of those challenges. I presume Is that right.
Lucinda MillerGuest
04:50
Absolutely. So there are my sort of top tips for each thing, and then at the end I've got 60 glorious recipes full of nutritious goodies that sort of help to nourish the brain. Full of nutritious goodies that sort of help to nourish the brain. So things full of omega-3 and zinc and iron, b vitamins, et cetera all those really important things. And there's a specific smoothie, for instance, called my Cherry Sleepy Smoothie, which is full of natural melatonin and calming herbs like chamomile, and that's been super popular, and I've had parents literally email me saying oh my God, it's the first time my child's ever slept properly through the night having just had that smoothie. So it's amazing stuff I've also got. There are lots of very fussy eaters, and so I've created some margarita pizza waffles, which seem to be very, very popular, and some chocolate quinoa waffles. So, yeah, most of the recipes are crunchy and beige, but with sort of supercharged nutrients inside, which, yes, beige is a popular food color, I think, for a lot of listeners for their children.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
06:01
So that's great that you are meeting the need of what kids want to eat at home, because I think that's sometimes the problem when you're trying to navigate healthy eating with your kids. It's how do you actually get the healthy stuff into children, you know? So that crosses one of the barriers.
Lucinda MillerGuest
06:19
Absolutely. But I also, as I said in the chapter on fussy eating, absolutely. But I also, as I said in the chapter on fussy eating, I share all the reasons why. Because I think so many people just think, oh, you know, I'm never going to be able to achieve this. Especially, I mean, we work with children who are literally eating only two foods, and this is where sometimes you can go through the gradual, gradual approach of changing the food slowly but surely and thinking okay, they like create, you know, crunchy beige foods. Let's give them sort of more nutritious crunchy beige foods or just adapt things very, very slowly.
06:53
But there are also other reasons for that limited diet.
06:59
Sometimes it's a high anxiety state, and so actually some supplements to help reduce that anxiety can be really, really helpful.
07:07
You've got then the gut microbiome, which is the gut bacteria in the gut that can alter the neurotransmitter production and therefore alter things like how someone perceives tastes, smell, texture, etc. So you can work on that too. You can work on something called zinc, and zinc helps with things like sense of smell and taste, and if you don't have enough zinc you find it difficult to digest food. So often they might complain of a sore tummy, equally, if they're low in iron they may have a again a painful stomach and have a very low appetite. So there are lots of reasons why that might happen. Also, many neurodivergent kids also have quite low muscle tone in their mouth. So if they've been slow to talk or they just find things that you know, occasionally it's purely they're not eating other foods because they just don't feel they can swallow it or it's too difficult, and therefore there are exercises in the book too on how to sort of strengthen that sort of oral tone so it's easier to chew, easier to swallow.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
08:12
It's super interesting because it's looking kind of like what are the extra factors that are causing that refusal to eat and then addressing those as needed, whether that be supplementation or, as you said, muscle tone, to kind of reduce those barriers and then get the right food in front of them that then they can actually perhaps enjoy or try or sample.
08:32
That's really super interesting because you know, it's not the philosophy that I was raised by, where you know you just have to finish your plate and what's ever on it. It's actually looking to see what are some of those barriers that neurodiverse children are experiencing that we aren't able to see as parents. I'm definitely going to buy a copy of your book when it comes back into print because I have those challenges at home as well and I know that some of the listeners you know they've asked some, you know have asked questions. You know I've had one listener who you know his child ended up in hospital with iron deficiency, anemia and, you know, blue lips. I mean that's how severe the lack of eating food had become and that's really scary for a parent and you feel so helpless. So it sounds like your book has a lot of tools to kind of address things like that.
Lucinda MillerGuest
09:16
Yes. So I think I'm super passionate about all of this because I don't want it to get to that crisis point. And if it has got to the crisis point, obviously the medical team will take over and they'll probably have to do iron infusions or whatever they need to do. But we don't want our kids to get to that state and I think it happens.
09:38
The trouble is with nutrient deficiencies. It happens very, very slowly. It's a drip drip effect. It's not something that suddenly happens overnight and that's why you know, if you went dairy free for two weeks to see if that was helping you, you're not going to become deficient in calcium in two weeks. But if you go dairy free for three, four, five years and you're not taking calcium, vitamin D, magnesium, et cetera, then there may be a problem going forward with your bones and with other things going on. So I think it's really important to think about these nutrients and thinking what is my child not eating? Because if they're not eating things with B12, if they're not eating things with iron, if they're not eating things with zinc or omega-3, then you do need to find a way somehow and I know it's damn hard sometimes because children can be really tricky to get supplements into, but to consider supplements, because sometimes even the really challenging eaters actually are okay with something like fruit juice and you can get a heck of a lot in fruit juice, for instance, or a smoothie or something.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
10:44
That's been my preferred method has been, you know, smoothie or something. My preferred method has been fruit juice. Yeah, and that's a treat. So a treat with a little secret supplement in it.
Lucinda MillerGuest
10:55
And sometimes you have to go as far as hiding it in ice cream or jam, and that's okay too. Just to begin with, I see these supplements purely as scaffolding until you're able to enable that eating, and that could be a short-term window. It could be a long-term window, but if it is a zinc deficiency or an iron deficiency, you can see a change within six to eight weeks if you build in enough of those supplements.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
11:20
Yeah, I saw a remarkable change actually from listening to you last time we spoke. My daughter was zinc and her stopping chewing on things. I mean, she would chew on things incessantly, you know, and you know her whole shirt would be wet literally from chewing, and zinc made a remarkable difference in that. So, and your, your recommendation on juice as well, because otherwise it wasn't going down. So I think those are, you know it's, it's nice because it's practical solutions that actually parents can use, versus, you know, hide the vegetables. You know, hide the vegetables in this and they won't notice, because they often do notice, I guess they do and you have to be very gradual with things.
Lucinda MillerGuest
11:58
But what you were describing with your daughter in case people don't understand about the chewing of her top was is there something called PICA, p-i-c-a, which is well established in pregnant women, for instance?
12:11
So they often crave things like cold or really icy drinks and it's sort of like craving non-food items, and it's because they're sort of basically usually deficient in iron and sometimes zinc, and this can be shown in children as well through putting non-food items in their mouth. So it could be something like a stone or some dirt tissues paper, but equally it could be hoodie strings and sleeves and collars and things like that. And this is more common in the neurodivergent kids and more common in the kids that have probably a limited diet. They tend to be the ones that are low in zinc and iron. It's really important to address PICA if you can, because putting these non-food items in your mouth poses a higher risk for things like lead toxicity, also blockage in the bowel you know, a stone if you swallow that or something like that? Yeah, so it and parasites as well. So it's really important.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
13:14
It was remarkable to change as well. So thank you for that lovely tip. Now you mentioned that the gut health and the biome which is, you know, becoming more and more of a major focus in terms of our lifestyle and how it impacts us, you know, in our brain connection with our gut. And how do you assess a child's gut microbiome without doing a sample? How you know how does one go about that and understanding what's going on.
Lucinda MillerGuest
13:41
So we do run stool samples and I think, actually I think that's really important if you want to know exactly what's going on. But I will give some examples so people have practical tips too. So, basically, a gut microbiome test is we do that as well as a gut function test. So we're looking to see is the child digesting, absorbing efficiently, is there any inflammation? Inflammation, is there any problem with gut lining, that sort of thing first, is there any blood or mucus? You know, should we be referring them back to pediatrics? Then we do this gut microbiome test. So basically, the gut microbiome is a lovely ecosystem think of it as a beautiful, beautiful meadow and it's full of flora and fauna and lots of different kind of bugs and things and these all should work in harmony and they help you digest your food. They help make B vitamins, they help with your immune system, they help bring down something called inflammation Inflammation leads to pain and rashes and also brain fog and things.
14:48
But they also help to make neurotransmitters, and neurotransmitters are these brain chemicals. So serotonin is the most famous one that everyone has heard about. 90% of our serotonin is made in the gut and this helps us be happy, sleep well, poop easily. Okay, then you've got acetylcholine. Acetylcholine is really important for working, memory processing and self-regulation and emotional regulation. There's GABA, which helps with things like anxiety and sleep. There is dopamine, which obviously with ADHD, lots of focus, concentration, inattentiveness all of that is obviously helped with creating enough dopamine. Then you've got often, with the ADHD, you've got a high adrenaline state. So you've got low dopamine, high adrenaline, and again this adrenaline, high cortisol state can again be supported through the gut microbiome.
15:42
So it's really important to be able to create a wonderful diversity within the gut so that everything's working in harmony and blocking out the bad guys, which are these invasive bacteria. You don't want strep, you don't want something called Klebsiella, you don't want Citrobacter, you don't want, you know, some of these parasites and things like that, or yeast overgrowth, so these can cause problems. But you do want the good guys like lactobacillus bifidobacterium, akkermansia. You know these are good guys that help to create the you know these really positive hormones and brain chemicals. Hormones and brain chemicals. So how do you feed the gut microbiome? Well, lots of fruits and vegetables. So the different pigments and colours in those fruits and vegetables. So say, you've got a bowl of berries, you're going to have some reds and some purples. If you've got peppers bell peppers you might be looking at red, orange, yellow and green. So those different pigments or colours all help to feed the and green. So those different pigments or colors all help to feed the microbiome.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
16:49
So variety is really what you're looking for in terms of what you're putting in your mouth.
Lucinda MillerGuest
16:54
Yeah. So, as we were saying, you know, most neurodivergent kids are very mono with what they'll eat, and so expanding the diet is hard. But even a bit of cinnamon, you know, in a bowl of porridge will help. So spices and herbs, garlic, you know, do they like garlic bread? Then you can go. Do they like garlic pesto bread? Okay, then we can get basil in. Okay, with the basil, can we then put some parsley in with that too, and you can sort of build on that.
17:23
Equally, you know, a lot of children love a light curry. They don't like the very, very spicy curries, but they do like a curry and it's often a popular one at school. And again, you can get some lovely things like cumin, coriander, fenugreek, and these are all really helpful for the gut microbiome Ginger, garlic, as I said, turmeric so these are all helpful, as well as the actual, you know, broccolis and peas and carrots and things which may seem a bit more daunting. And then there are the cultured foods, so live yogurt and then its cousin kefir, both amazing at helping to bolster the gut microbiome, and it's why we're told to eat yogurt after having antibiotics, for instance. But you can get it from miso, miso soup, which a lot of kids really like A bit of kimchi. If they've ever been to Wagamama's, they always want to put kimchi and they love that. So pickled cucumbers that's in a McDonald's. Okay, I'm not promoting eating McDonald's, but they will.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
18:25
If they like pickled cucumber McDonald's. But you know they will, my daughter won't even eat it if it comes in.
Lucinda MillerGuest
18:32
Yeah, I know, but if they, do like it, then you can have a jar in your fridge and they can have them. So there's a whole load of things that you can try. But obviously some kids are fickle. They're not going to change their diet, they're not going to eat these weird foods that they describe as weird anyway. So that's where probiotics or live bacteria supplements can make a massive difference in the short term, as scaffolding until again that then the neurotransmitters are better, better supported, and then they'll be more likely to accept, they'll be less stressed, less anxious and all those, as I said, those neurological pathways that contribute to what how food tastes, smells and feels, will also be supported. So hopefully, over time things will just become easier.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
19:20
They'll just become more curious, it's taking the step before you're getting them to eat to actually enable them to be able to then open their palates up to different things, which is very interesting, and, you know, being calm and patient, because it is a gradual change and children take a while, especially neurodiverse children, to come to change, you know. So I think it's parents need to be in it for the long game, I guess, instead of looking for an instant kind of solution. But it makes a lot of sense because another thing is also the sensory aspect of food, so you know how it, the texture of it, you know, and how it looks and how it feels. What are some of the things that you would recommend in terms of parents trying to navigate, opening up their child to different, different textures and sensations of food, or, if they have difficulty with that, or would it again go back to trying to get those precursors in and then slowly trying different types of food or different sensory foods?
Lucinda MillerGuest
20:21
So obviously, if you see an OT or someone like that, they'll talk about a sensory diet. So foods that are crunchy will give the kids this sensory feedback and that's great in the short term. But most of the crunchy food is not nutrient-dense and, as I said, that's why I've really worked hard on my recipes, not just in my book but on my blog, etc. Because I think it's so important that parents have these nutritious foods that they can feed their child. Yes, they're going to have to work a bit harder, but at least they're going to get more nutrition in, because every single mouthful counts, but in terms of nutrients, et cetera, to help with that.
21:01
Going back to zinc, zinc, as I said, helps with sense of smell and taste. It also helps with digestive juices. So if your digestive juices are not revved up, you're not that hungry, it doesn't taste that nice, it doesn't taste that good or smell that good. Right, what are you going to depend on? You're going to depend on some sort of sensory feedback. Why do it? Because otherwise food is a boring part of your day. Yeah, why do it? Food is a boring part of your day, yeah. Why do it so? Partly when the zinc is really rather low, then this can magnify that need for that sensory feedback. But zinc is the second most abundant mineral in your central nervous system. So over time, not only this is what we found in our clinic, not only does it help with sense of smell and taste and the digestion, so things feel comfortable in the tummy, smells nice, tastes nice, but also it helps to work on the whole sort of neurological system so things feel better too. So slurpy food or slimy food doesn't feel so bad A supplement.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
22:03
You know that having a deficiency or not being, you know, not having enough of that in your diet can have such a profound effect from you know, you know, wanting to eat the food. You know it's, it's, it's super interesting.
Lucinda MillerGuest
22:15
Yeah, and the same with B vitamins. So you know I touched upon B12. So if a child is plant-based or mainly plant-based or just having pizza or nuggets, which is, you know, essentially yes, there is some protein in there, but very, very little you're probably going to become B12 deficient. Folate comes from greens and eggs. So lots of kids are egg free for allergies or whatever, and they're not eating their greens. So those two are really important neurological vitamins, again, that help massively with that whole sort of sensory side.
22:52
So the reason the sensory systems out of whack can be many fold. I mean, obviously, you know we've talked about trauma, we've talked about all sorts of things. So this is just one angle to think about. But if their diet is super restricted it's worth trying a b vitamin, you know, like a b complex, and seeing if over two to three months, that whole system is better regulated. So it's been found that these b vitamins and zinc and various other things like omega-3 and probiotics all help with this vagus nerve tone. So the vagus nerve is this wandering nerve that connects the back of your brain to your gut and it also goes to all your organs, um, and it is super important. It's like super highway that sends signals up and down all day and it essentially helps with so many of your ability, abilities to be able to emotionally regulate.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
23:50
It's your fight or flight. Major system as well, yeah exactly so, exactly exactly so.
Lucinda MillerGuest
23:56
This vagal tone, and there's lots of things you can do. So why children hum, why children stim, why children often sing or whatever, or why music is so loved, is because it's very calming and very good at toning this vagal nerve. So low vagal tone in babies can mean that they're less cuddly, more socially anxious, you know, less likely to want to be in a crowd, etc. Less easy to soothe, for instance, whereas a baby with a higher vagus tone is sort of cozier, cuddlier, just easier to settle, more social, more smiley. So this can be from very early age and no one really knows why a specific baby is going to have a difference in their vagal nerve tone. Sometimes it's genetic, sometimes it's a birth trauma.
24:51
So you know, whatever you know, there are lots of things going on. Sometimes you know they've been born and their gut microbiome doesn't develop properly, or maybe there are some slight shortfalls in their system, because even though mum is meant to give all their nutrients to the baby, sometimes there's still not quite enough for the baby or for some reason it hasn't got through. And there's so many genetic reasons and environmental reasons and so forth involved. So you know it's not pointing the blame at anyone. It's more just thinking this is what might be happening. So vagal tone. You know, as I said, there's lots of ways. It's why people have so got into cold swimming. Now, some kids love water.
25:34
I mean they would just jump into any pool any shower even in the middle of the winter, and they don't care Exactly exactly, but very often they'll be in a much better mood afterwards, and we know that cold water is so important for us, and even if they're not a bit reluctant for that, you could splash some on their face or even get their wrists or their ankles into a bit of.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
26:00
That's a yeah, really super interesting, because you don't really I wouldn't, I would, I would have equated that more with mood, but then you know how it can then connect also to your ability to eat food and to uh calm that down to a place where food becomes less challenging. So it's, it's, it's um taking concepts and ideas and applying them to eating, which is super interesting. Um, that goes beyond, uh, I think, what most uh parents are aware of. So it's um, what other advancements, or would you say, in research in the past year has really, you know, has there been anything in the nutritional landscape that's really jumped out to you since we last spoke, in terms of any research that you've been aware of, that, um, or that you've included in your book that parents might not be aware of?
Lucinda MillerGuest
26:46
So, first of all, there are relatively new studies that have come out about the link between ultra processed foods and child development. It's not pointing specific fingers yet at ADHD or dyslexia or autism, but it's just about general overall development, like locomotor skills, hopping, skipping, jumping, physical activity. You know SEND needs, higher SEND needs, for instance these things are. What the research papers are finding is that the children that have more ultra-processed food are more likely to have higher SEND needs, higher mental health needs, less able to do the sport or the activities.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
27:29
Is it a chicken or an egg? Do kids with neurodiversities eat more ultra processed foods or does ultra processed foods bring out more challenges of neurodiversity or has that kind of? Is that a bit not clear yet?
Lucinda MillerGuest
27:42
Yeah it's not clear yet. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, most parents say look, I've tried my hardest to give them the healthiest food possible and they just won't eat it. And that can be because of all the reasons we were talking about earlier. Things I didn't mention were things like long-term reflux, long-term constipation, gut inflammation, malabsorption. Those things are really important too to address because those are secondary things which can come alongside the neurodivergence. Something like 86% of children.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
28:14
Wow, that's super interesting. We really battle with constipation in our household and it's also, you know, uh cerebral palsy as well, which my daughter has. It's also can can be linked to that, so that that's a.
Lucinda MillerGuest
28:25
That's a startling uh amount of gut problems to to, to, to be, um, correlated to neurodiversity, um yeah, so it's a big thing whether it's I mean, this includes allergies, because allergies come from the gut, so as well, you know. So there are a lot, lots of things to sort of consider, um, so I think that's really important. Um, the other thing is there's been a lot of research done at Brighton University on the link between neurodivergence and chronic pain. So hypermobility, which can lead to hypermobile joints, muscle pain, fibromyalgia, etc. So that's been very interesting. That's been very interesting.
29:12
Equally, neurodivergence and long-term fatigue finding a very high number of children, by the time they're 18, you know, are burnt out. They're basically exhausted and unable to function well. So that's a big thing. Um, it's something I can very much relate to with me, um, and it's something that I've, you know, I guess energy management has been one of my hardest things throughout my life. And then I'm just trying to think of the latest one that came up. Yes, it was linking neurodiversity and anxiety, which obviously does, and then, but also the hypermobility. So those with hypermobility were more likely to have anxiety because the. You know, I've been reading that research too with Dr Eccles and I've asked her to come on the podcast.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
29:54
She's going to come, I think, february of next year. She's a busy lady but it's super fascinating. It's such a small research field but the more they understand about it and just how this is all connected and how our bodies are all connected, it's going to hopefully help children as they grow into adults, as you say, to be able to see and then to help to support and scaffold before it becomes more of an issue as they grow into adulthood and you have burnout and things like that and problems with your joints and anxiety and other things. So to be able to understand how these are all interrelated and how we can actually support and help children and recognize these things. I think it's an extremely interesting time from a research perspective and what they're discovering.
30:38
So, yes, I think you've hit all of the ones that have been on my radar that I've been reading too, so it's lovely to have had you here today on our podcast celebrating the 100th episode of the SEND Parenting Podcast. Looking forward into the next year because we're almost into 2025, if you can believe it. What things are in your pipeline? What's coming up for you in the world of neurodiversity?
Lucinda MillerGuest
31:06
Well, I'm just really lucky. I've been invited to lots of events, so school events, some bit of traveling so, yeah, my diary is looking pretty full for 2025. And, yeah, I'm really excited about spreading the world a bit more, as someone said about a year ago. They said, lucinda, you need to get out of your nature doc bubble, and so that's what I think I'm doing Excellent.
Dr Olivia KesselHost
31:30
Well, enjoy your time popping out and it sounds like you know. I just think that you know everyone should, when that book is back in print again which it sounds like it is that they should, you know go out and buy a copy of it. I know I will be, because it's sensible advice and it actually, you know, I the supplements until you can get the diet to a place where you maybe don't need the supplements anymore. So you know, it's all about promoting nutritional, healthy eating so that our childs have everything that they need to succeed in the best way that they can. So thank you for all that you do in terms of nutrition. It's education to me.
32:04
I had someone on the podcast the other day actually it's this episode this week or a few weeks ago that was saying in medical school we're just not taught about nutrition. We're not, and it's so negligent, I think, and it's so great that there are nutritionists like yourself who can help medicine and doctors and parents to understand the importance of it. I mean, I am a complete proponent, but it's definitely something that's lacking in medicine and in the advice we get from our GPs because they haven't been trained. So thank you for sharing with us your knowledge and expertise, because it's super, super important. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, olivia, it's been great and happy 100th birthday.
32:49
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